Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Refined and tested recipes for all manner of distilled spirits.

Moderator: Site Moderator

mtnwalker2
Swill Maker
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:35 pm
Location: Smokey Mountain tops, WNC

Post by mtnwalker2 »

Quite honestly, I was thinking of some of you dry land gophers when I made that post. Grounding can be a bitch if ther's no ground. High amp electic fence loses charge without good ground.

I dig a hole as deep as possible with post hole diggers, drive the 10' irona= as deep as possible, with several inches atfp the grond. Fill the hole with soil and baking soda, 2 packs. in extemely dry areas use salts. Potassium nitrare, sodium nitrates, ammonium nitrates etc. Ground rod will deteriate over time, but they are cheap and work to keep you safe.

Before i did this I had lightning enter the house and make like a shotgun blast. Never has happened since .
> "You are what you repeatedly do. Excellence is not an event - it is a
>habit" Aristotle
Dan Call
Swill Maker
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:55 pm
Location: Deep South

Smiley's Recommendation for flour.....

Post by Dan Call »

The Smiley book, in the section "alternative mashing" or something like that....he suggests adding cold water to flour so that it doesn't clump up, but it doesn't work so well.

I've also found that pouring corn meal into boiling water is not a great idea either, totally clumps.
RadicalEd1
Bootlegger
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:20 pm
Location: Mitten State, USA

Post by RadicalEd1 »

I've had some corn (about 2 gallons with water added) souring for the last few days. They don't seem to be producing any more CO2 or acid, and it's sitting at a pH of 4.5 +/-.5 (I can never read those pH strips really well :oops:). Definitely not as funky smelling as it was a few days ago.

Do you think the pH is low enough to safely mash it in with some other corn? Worse comes to worse I happen to already have a bottle of lactic acid on hand so I could help it out a tad :D.
pintoshine
Distiller
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:30 pm

Post by pintoshine »

RadicalEd1, I would say your first fermentation is good. Make sure to keep just a bit separate, unmashed as a starter. The rest you need to use to steep your ground corn over night. This will get it all a bit sour and make mashing real nice. Make sure to get the steeped corn at least gelled like corn mush. It will get as thick as pudding.
Then when it cools down to 154, add you barley malt. It will look like magic when you start stirring. I like to use wineo's trick from here on and put the whole thing in a cooler and let it work over night. The next day it is real nice and tan and sweet.
Old Goat
Novice
Posts: 86
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:04 pm
Location: In them thar hills

Sour Mash

Post by Old Goat »

I don't know jack about making shine, being a new distiller, This is what I do. First, I cook off a bunch of cracked corn, after I have washed it etc. Then I cook it until the kernal is soft.Then when the temp is down to about 160 F or so, I add in the fine ground malted barley. This quickly thins out the mash. When it cools , I add the yeast.
Now for the sour mash, I drain off the beer and leave the yeast and whatever grain is left in the bottom. I then add a new batch of fresh mash. I don't concern myself with all this supplimental ingredients. If you put yeast and sugar together, you make alcohol. You ever think that the suppliers are making something simple difficult to make you spend more money?
I now have 5 gals mash added to old mash, and it smells sour, and is cooking well. I have more time to let the yeast work, as the specific gravity shows it has more sugar to cook. I am using red star champagne yeast for the first time and it is suppose to be a high alcohol tolerant yeast. the hyrometer showed I had a potiential of18% when I started,so, I will see where it goes. It has 5% sugar left to convert.
This is only my 4th or 5th batch, but I am learning.
My opinion is don't make anything simple difficult.
I am going to get some wheat and rye to see how this changes the flavor.
Happy distilling to all! :D
Have fun, get high, just don't Drink and Drive.
Moonshine is the next best thing to sex, and at my age, let the moon shine on!
pintoshine
Distiller
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:30 pm

Post by pintoshine »

Old Ass you miss the point. this is a method to get the forth or fifth run taste in the first run. Many of us switch up and don't do the sour mash method so this is a starter for getting the complexity of the lacto fermentation in a single round.
Old Goat
Novice
Posts: 86
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:04 pm
Location: In them thar hills

Post by Old Goat »

Sorry, I just skimed through the first part of the thread. Living in moonhine country, I talked with an old-timer who said they used to sprout the corn before they cooked it. It's great you are trying all these new techniques. For me, I like the old tried and true methods. Like all this lacto-bacilli stuff just confuses an old country boy. Heck, it took me a few times before I figgered out how a hydometer works. Didn't take me long to figger out when those smelly tails start though.(I cant keep my finger off the drip line when distilling :lol: Good Luck. Happy 'Stillin!
Have fun, get high, just don't Drink and Drive.
Moonshine is the next best thing to sex, and at my age, let the moon shine on!
Ricky
Swill Maker
Posts: 459
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:38 pm
Location: Gods Mtn

Post by Ricky »

if you want to know what tails smells like get you some woodford reserve and add a splash of water. theyre in there.
Day Late;Dollar Short
RadicalEd1
Bootlegger
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:20 pm
Location: Mitten State, USA

Post by RadicalEd1 »

Thanks for the feedback, pint. So for clarification, I should:

1. Add soured corn to all the corn I will be mashing, let sit.
1a. Save a little bit of soured corn.
2. Cook corn at 180*f for 30 minutes.
3. Let corn cool to 160*f, mash in barley.
4. Maintain temp for conversion for some time (hour plus), optionally letting it sit overnight.
5. Strain out all solids.
6. Reduce water volume as necessary via boil, allow to cool.
7. Pitch yeast.
7a. Pitch lacto starter saved from 1a (or is that starter saved for some later time/purpose)?

Steps 3-7 are very familiar to me through my beer experience, and I have a nice cooler mash tun available as well.

I'll probably let the corn sour up today and mash tonight, if the above is true.

Thanks again!
pintoshine
Distiller
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:30 pm

Post by pintoshine »

that is an excellent step by step summary. You nailed it.
RadicalEd1
Bootlegger
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:20 pm
Location: Mitten State, USA

Post by RadicalEd1 »

Excellent! I guess that technical writing class was worth it, after all :D. I have my grains mashing right now. I had a little trouble maintaining the cooking temp, especially because my big plastic spoon decided to wimp out at the temps and couldn't stir the bottom of my 15 gallon kettle well. Oh well, the first time only counts as a learning experience anyway! Any drinkable product is purely a bonus, as I see it :D.
BW Redneck
Trainee
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:57 am
Location: 1000 acre farm, Ohio

Post by BW Redneck »

Not meaning to derail the topic, but I think that you can solve your "wimpy spoon" problem by building your own out of wood like this one: http://pivo.northernbrewer.com/nbstore/ ... le&x=0&y=0

(Seriously, I don't know why they go to the trouble of selling these. Anyone who wanted one could make their own. I used to do a bit of woodworking, and it looks pretty easy to do. Even easier with a drill press.)

You might not want to use it after the mash is cooked, since wood can hold bacteria, but it would be useful for stirring a keg-sized mash. Beside, we're going to contaminate (sour) the stuff anyway, aren't we?
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance... baffle them with bullshit."
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."
"Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see"

20lt small pot still, working on keg
Old_Blue
Rumrunner
Posts: 500
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:30 pm
Location: High Ground

Post by Old_Blue »

Old Ass wrote:
For me, I like the old tried and true methods.
Dooley tells me that his grandpa and daddy did it like this 70+ years ago, they just didn't know what to call it.

I quote Dooley:

"They dig a hole in the ground next to where they were going to set up and lay a tarp in it. Pour in broke corn and bucketed water out of the creek on top of it and cover it with brush. Throw croaker sacks of corn in the creek to sprout. After several days the corn (in the sacks) sprouted they'd grind the sprout with a hand grinder clamped to a board nailed between two trees and throw it in the pit with all the sour corn. This was a week before a run. Next week they'd pack in out in two days, working around the clock. Throw the dirt back in the hole and put the brush back on top of it. They'd time it when circuit judge was in town holding court because they knew all the law would be tied up with the judge all week."


Edit: Dooley wanted to add that make sure you skim of all the bugs, chipmunks, squirrels, and any black snakes that might have drowned in it before for you run it.
Last edited by Old_Blue on Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fire is the devil’s only friend - Don McLean
Jump in where you can and hang on - Brisco Darling
RadicalEd1
Bootlegger
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:20 pm
Location: Mitten State, USA

Post by RadicalEd1 »

One of those, or similar, is definitely on my wish-list, BW.

As an added consequence of my wimpy spoon, a short while ago I started draining my corn and discovered that the entire bottom half of the pot

A) was a solid, concrete mass, and
B) As a result of A no malt made it down that far.

YAAAARRRR!

So I'm heating up a big pot of water and I'll re-mash with some AG enzyme I have on hand, simply cuz at this point I'm too lazy to grind up more barley :p. For the future, I'll probably cut the amount of grain in half; my pot is just too deep for this :(.
wineo
Distiller
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:33 pm

Post by wineo »

I decided to go ahead and start some sour corn to use as a starter for my corn/malt/wheat/rye whiskey,although its still cold in my basement.Heres what i did.I used 1-1/2 gallons of corn in a 2 gallon bucket filled almost to the top.I added boiling water,drained,and added more boiling water to bring the temp up past 180f.I also added 1/2 tsp of 88%lactic acid and 1 tsp of DAP.I also added a 1/4 tsp of gypsum,and 1/4 tsp of epsom salts.
I think by adding nitrogen{DAP},calsium{gypsum}and magnisum{epsom},and adding some lactic,It should speed up the process some.
{Hopefully}
I took a PH reading and its 5.5.Im going to throw another handfull of unwashed corn in there tomorrow in case the boiling water killed all the germs.
Im going to leave it for a few weeks,and see what I get.
I will keep you all posted.
wineo
Distiller
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:33 pm

Post by wineo »

I checked on the sour corn starter tonight,and after 48 hours,its expelling
co2 at the rate of 1 bubble in the airlock every 3 minutes and its at 63f.The lactic,and neutrents must be working.
modenacart
Novice
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by modenacart »

What are you guys using for your corn? I can get cracked corn for chickens or whole deer corn for about 11 dollars for 50 lbs. Is this stuff good to use? Will the corn be harmfull to my maltmill?
pintoshine
Distiller
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:30 pm

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by pintoshine »

either corn should be fine. I can't get my malt meal to crush corn. It does ok with two row barley but corn causes it to lock up.
modenacart
Novice
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by modenacart »

Great, thanks. I get cracked corn for my chickens all the time and its pretty cheap. about 10 dollars for 50 lbs.
WILDBILL2873
Novice
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:42 am
Location: THE BLUE RIDGE

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by WILDBILL2873 »

I HAVE REALY ENJOYED ALL THE IDEAS. I CROSSED THIS IDEA WITH UJSM. I EVEN REUSE THE LEFT OVER MASH IN THE FERMENTER TO CREATE MY OWN STRAIN OF YEAST. WHAT I LIKED ABOUT THAT IS THAT AFTER THE 4TH OR SO TIME IT STARTED TO TAKE LONGER TO FINISH AND THE FLAVOR IMPROVED. ONE THING THOUGH; I GET 3/4 GAL FROM EVERY 5 GALLONS OF WASH. EVEN WITH MY PACKING REMOVED AND THE REFLUX TURNED OFF IT COMES OUT AT NO LESS THAN 60%. I THINK I WILL HAVE TO GET A PARROT TO KEEP MORE FLAVOR AND NOT HAVE TO CUT IT DOWN. I'LL KEEP READING.
"illigitimus non carborundum"
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by blind drunk »

The converted wash tasted like a really sour version of malt extract wash.
Odd though, now it smells like peaches fermenting.
I've been reading this thread quite a bit and was wondering if the peach smell means the mash's gone sour or does corn and malt always smell like peaches. I ask because mine smelled just as described but I never soured it on purpose. But it could have spontaneously soured since the lactic bacteria is everywhere in my shop. My first time doing this so I have nothing to compare with. Great smell whatever it is. BD.
I do all my own stunts
brewzz
Novice
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:22 pm

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by brewzz »

Ok,I started a batch of this 4 days ago...It had been in the shed at about 105 deg. and smells terrible and has some greenish mold growing on top.Am I screwed,or can this still be saved by cooking and adding crushed barley???
Cheers,Brewzz
Cheers,Brewzz
Hawke
retired
Posts: 2471
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:39 am

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Hawke »

Never seen green mold on a ferment. 105 is a little too high for the yeast. If you run it, it will probably be pretty nasty.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat
brewzz
Novice
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:22 pm

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by brewzz »

No yeast in it yet.I'm doing the lactic acid ferment first.....Anyone else?Maybe I should just dump it.It's only 14 lbs.of corn and water,so it's not much of an investment...
Cheers,Brewzz
Cheers,Brewzz
muckanic
Swill Maker
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 1:19 am
Location: Canberra

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by muckanic »

Well, it may not make whiskey, but treating the low wines with alkali (specifically, sodium carbonate) can salvage many a fault. It will keep both bacterial acids and wild yeast medicinal phenols in the pot. Sulphides ought to blow off and/or be trapped by copper.
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Dnderhead »

be careful with alkaline wash, can create ammonia and lead to a "blue" distilerant.
brewzz
Novice
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:22 pm

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by brewzz »

Well,I guess I was worried for no reason...I dumped some of the water along with the mold out of the buckets.Left it for a couple more days,and it smelled kinda like sour milk then.I also started another bucket with 8 lbs of cracked corn,about 1 1/2 gal water and 2 cups of salt for a brine.I read this on another thread as a way to start a lactic ferment as they do with kim chi.You rinse the salt out after 12 hours and add fresh water back to cover the corn to about half again it's height.That bucket smelled much better after 3 days.I put it all,24 lbs,in my fermenting keg,added 4 tbls of amalase,and brought it slowly up to 180deg.When it cools to 160,I'm gonna add 5 -6 lbs of crushed barley.I'm waiting for it to cool right now.I think I'm gonna add about 10 lbs of dissolved sugar to it after it converts fully.I will pitch 2 pks of prestige whiskey yeast with amalase when it's cool enough,probably late tonite,or in the morning.....Fingers Crossed.I will report back later.After that,I will treat it as a UJSM for 3 or 4 more iterations.......
Cheers,Brewzz
brewzz
Novice
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:22 pm

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by brewzz »

Got up this morning and mash was still at 120 deg,but fully converted.It was still quite thick,being 24 lbs in a 15 gal keg...So I took about 1/3 of it and put that into a 6 gal bucket.I then added water to both,and diluted it down to 1.080 sg.11 percent alcohol potential.It kicked in three hours....I should be able to strip it by next friday,add more sugar and keep going....I'll let y'all know how it goes.
Cheers,Brewzz
mississippimoon
Novice
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:12 pm

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by mississippimoon »

i made a very similar sour corn mash. keep in mind this is on a very small scale b/c i am a novice and i was experimenting with recipes from scratch

1 cup brown sugar
1 cup enriched corn meal
1 1/2 liter purified water

i agree with what you said about the smell. on the second day, i gave it a whiff and it smelled like vomit, to be honest. unfortunately that scared me off and i discarded of it. however, im trying that recipe again tonight now that i know i should let it sit for 4 days instead of just 2. how did the distilled product come out btw??? what can i expect???
brewzz
Novice
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:22 pm

Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by brewzz »

It came out fine,but I'm not going to do a cooked mash again.Just ujsm.I ended up doing 4 iterations,and ended up with about 4 gal. of decent whiskey.
Cheers,Brewzz
P.S. Don't fear the smell!!
Cheers,Brewzz
Post Reply