Thermometer on a pot still?

Simple pot still distillation and construction with or without a thumper.

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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by ScottishBoy »

Personally, I think its a matter of personal choice. Its kind of like having amp and oil pressure and and volt meters in your car. It might not serve much of a purpose to some folks, but others like to monitor and it does give them something to do. I recently added a thermometer to the top of my condenser unit and I kinda like seeing the temps change. It gives me something to do while Im waiting.
I have noted a tendency for some folks to despise them after they "master the technique". Once again, this is a personal preference.

If you want the thermo, put it in. If not then dont.
As long as it helps you with what your doing, who is anyone to judge?

Besides..this is supposed to be fun! ;) If you want a few extra strobes in your disco, then go for it!
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by theholymackerel »

CletusDwight wrote: When I come to make notes, it means a lot more to me to write down a temperature/abv reading than just sit sniffing at samples.
OK.

So yer usin' yer thermometer to make cuts. Fine. How did ya decide at what temp to make the initial cut that yer thereafter copyin'?

See? The original decision where the cuts lie was still a decision that came from yer nose and tongue.

Anyone that consistantly turns out good spirits from a potstill does so usin' their sense of smell and taste. Science can't can't design a tool to make cuts that can even come close to my God-given sense of smell and taste.


If yer usin' any sort of gauge on a potstill 'cause it gives ya a calm feelin' of controll, that's just fine. But it's not necessary, and lets not try and force the new guys to think they must do it this way. As many many experienced distillers have already stated in this thread: they started with a thermometer on their potstill 'cause they thought it was necessary, only to find out later after competency was gained that it was un-needed and made for one more hole in the system to have to seal up.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by ozone39 »

I run with a thermometer at the base of the reflux tube and at the top where the vapor point is. It's over kill but it really lets you know whats going on inside the still. I use it to help control heat.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by LWTCS »

Potstill ozone potstill

Can't control temp or heat as such only input
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by blind drunk »

Well I just did a little non scientific experiment doing a spirit run using a thermo. The thermo's been reading 80 degrees solid but I've collected a bunch of nasty heads and a bunch of 500 ml jars that all taste different, more than less. A percentage of these cuts will probably end up in my final blend. So if I was relying on my thermo for my cuts, I wouldn't have made any yet and that would be wrong. I'm convinced that a pot doesn't need a thermo. My two cents, bd.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by HookLine »

The thermo's been reading 80 degrees solid but I've collected a bunch of nasty heads and a bunch of 500 ml jars that all taste different,
That's odd. Temp on my pot still rises continually through the run.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by blind drunk »

The thermo's been reading 80 degrees solid but I've collected a bunch of nasty heads and a bunch of 500 ml jars that all taste different,


That's odd. Temp on my pot still rises continually through the run.
Mine rises too. I was trying to say that at 80 degrees I collected a wide tasting range of jars. So if I went just by temperature alone, I would have missed the subtle flavour differences when my pot was at 80 degrees, which it hovered at for a couple of hours. In other words, at 80 degrees, the range in smell and flavour was significant enough to make distinct cuts which I would have missed if I went by thermo alone. Cheers, bd.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by HookLine »

my pot was at 80 degrees, which it hovered at for a couple of hours.
Temp on mine just climbs slowly but relatively steadily (after it hits boiling). Certainly never sits at one temp for two hours. Maybe you had a lot of heads in that charge.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by blind drunk »

Maybe you had a lot of heads in that charge.
It was a 26 liter charge of UJSM low wines. I got about 7 liters of heads so far. I'm just airing out the rest but I'm guessing there will be more heads to add to that early count. I sure wish could get through those heads quicker though. bd.

edit - closer to 24 liter charge
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by Usge »

I have therms on all my potstill heads. I started on a little 5L copper alembic and I had a therm installed right at the top of the lynearm before it goes down. That was probably the most accurate therm I've had in terms of it's relationship to the theory section of this site. And it helped me immensely starting out...to see what was going on..and have "some" idea what to expect. It also helped me in learning/understanding the basic theory/relationship and how things were connected. (ie., a certain % wash...would start coming off at given temp, at a certain %). And, the understanding that I could work that from different angles..and start with a percent abv I "wanted" ...to what % abv the still charge should be to get there...although it's much more difficult than it sounds...given you don't know exactly what you'll be keeping for "hearts" to blend. It only gives you an idea of where it will "start" coming off. The rest is an estimate. My other 2 heads on my 5 gal pot from the Colonel...the therms are pretty useless other than just a general idea of when the vapor is starting to heat up/rise. They aren't nearly as accurate.

But, in the end, as someone's sig around here used to say......"I ain't never seen no thermometer with taste buds". And I'll add to that...that I've never seen a hydrometer with taste buds either. I've pulled tails at 77% before. I'd have never known that unless I was tasting/smelling what was coming out of the still. While a hydrometer is a more reliable way to measure abv, that in and of itself is also not going to really know whether what you have in the jar is heads or hearts or tails either. It can give you an "idea"...based on where you are in a run. And it can do that more reliably than "most" therms can. But, you still have to taste and smell what comes out. You have to do that to "learn" as well (smell/taste). And the point here is not just to learn the theory of why all this works...but to learn how to apply it/use it. And that takes time (trial and error, practice, experience). And just as there are people here who's experience has been that their hydrometer bobs just before tails on their particular still or etc...there are people..like myself..who've experenced runs using temp that were just as informative and even accurate in their predictions — that's acknowledging that in general, hydrometer readings and their temp based variances are generally a more stable reading overall because of a smaller possible variance scale.

I have nothing against the use of any or all of these things...and I use everything. But, when it comes down to what goes in my blend jar and what gets recycled...that is based exclusively on me and nothing else. As far as the main site goes....it's there to help people learn. When you start out, and you wouldn't know the difference between heads and tails if you bit you on either one.....it's often the recommendation to find "other" ways to make a cut that is NOT dependent upon having experience in taste/smell (ie., cut from 80% to 70%)...so that you can start to learn..unltimately about what you are dealing with. There isn't anyway to just give someone "experience" to know the difference the day they walk through the door. The ultimate goal here is to use all the resources made available to develop your own experience as safely and effectively as possible. The other side to that to keep in mind is...the history of making spirits is long. And there has been plenty of exceptional whiskey, etc., made in this world WITHOUT the benefit of understanding some of the technical and theoretical nuances that are printed there in the main section for anybody to read. So, keep in mind the goal...and that is to make exceptional product that "you" like, safely....at home.

I'll leave off with this..I made the same observations that some of you have here...that temp is part of theory, and why would it not be something you could use, etc., etc. And it "is" all of those things. But, I also got "stuck" for months...doing runs mechanically, without learning a damn thing other than the results were not consistent or what I wanted. One time..a cut from 80-70% was fine. The next time..it wasn't. But, as far as the therm and the hydrometer was concerned...it was the "same". It's missing the forest for the trees kind of thing (while still understanding that the trees are what makes up the forest and one cannot exist without the other). So, use whatever helps you understand, learn and get down the road...it is useful. But, it's not a replacement for experience in tasting/etc...and never was. You'll gain that by doing it...over and over and over. And experimenting as well.
The main concern is that we all do those things (experiment) safely — which is exactly why it's important to understand how these things work and why you don't put a valve on the output of a potstill.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by Hack »

Very well said, Usge. Thanks for taking the time to put all that together for everyone.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by olddog »

Thats the best explanation I have ever seen, congrats on a great post USGE

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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by scarecrow »

I haven't been stillin' long.
Before I started I read that dang site at least 5 times. All those facts and figures, all those temperatures etc etc. I was sure you needed one or it wasn't going to work.
I wanted a thermometer in my still no matter what. Why? Because I was going to use it as a crutch to make my cuts.
I resisted and have never put one in. I have the thermometer and all the fittings in a box in the garage.
I took the advice of those that knew more than me (which was everybody) and didn't install it.
I have never looked back, because I think It made me pay more attention to the still and what was happening, rather than look at an instrument and then make a decision.

I fire it up flat out. I feel the lyne arm with the palm of my hand. When it gets to the condenser, I cut power back.
I have a poor sense of smell and the first few batches weren't that good. But I persevered, relying only on taste and what was good to me.

I've learnt a lot without a thermometer. As to if I need one - maybe not.

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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by still_in »

im with scarecrow on that one.

except i did start out with a thermometer right at the top of my pot and at the time, i thought it was very useful. as time went on and i tried different washes etc. i realized the thermometer really wasnt telling me anything other than a general heat up, like so many of you have said. stopped looking at it after that.

now with my new pot still with a lot more copper (2"x2' column, 3/4"x4' lyne arm, coil etc.) i just listen to the sucker and hear when its starting to rattle, and i can feel along the copper to see exactly where the vapour is. when it hits the coil, i cut the heat back, and im off to the races.

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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by UnclePaul »

I haven't run more than a dozen runs thru the pot still I built, so I still use the thermo as a way to judge the heat I've under the pot. I have started using taste and smell for making cuts, but with a propane turkey cooker for the heat source, I can put a lot of fire under her and the temp will rise quickly.
I have noticed that sounds coming from the pot and am learning to adjust the heat accordingly, but with my cotton pickin' worthless ears, sounds ain't what they should be.
I guess what I'm saying is that as time goes by, and we novices have a lot more experience under our belts, then maybe we did put a hole in the still we didn't need.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still? w/Thumper

Post by ItsAJackal »

Have a quick question.

I just introduced myself in the other forum, as I am brand new to the hobby and very excited about building my first pot still and distillin.

I wanted to incorporate a thermometer just to be absolutely sure about the foreshots, heads, and where the middle and tail runs are.

I also wanted to use a thumper in my design. So the basic SS pot, copper tubing to a thumper, then thumper to worm, then out.

Where would you put the thermometer here? If I put it after the pot but before the thumper, won't my readings be incorrect? I was planning on using the same mash in the thumper as is in the pot, so should it actually be between the thumper and worm?

Thanks all, can't wait!
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by Dnderhead »

I whould think in the head of the of the thumper, but no matter where you put a thermometer in a pot still
its going to be as handy as a pockit in your underwear. learn to make cuts by taste and smell.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by Usge »

The only way to know where those cuts are is to taste. A pot runs itself. The starting temp is determined by the overall abv of what you start with in the pot. As the alc depletes the temp rises naturally. It can be different every single run and there is no manipulation to be done with it..and it can't tell you if 77% is still heads/middles or where tails begin. It's strictly a monitoring device...and as such...a hydrometer is a "generally" more reliable one. I would skip the therm and use a parrot / hydrometer to monitor output. Particularly if you are using a thumper. But, as Dnder said...you are still going to have to taste it to determine where your cuts are.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by Hack »

A thermometer on a pot still is only useful in a general way. Simply put, it won't give enough accuracy to be able to rely on it to make cuts. It will tell you the temperature of the vapor in the column, and from this you can infer the alcohol content of the vapor. However where to make the heads and tails cuts from this will vary depending, on the starting abv of the wash in the boiler, and how hard you are running the heat, add a thumper to this and it gets more complicated. If you still feel you need a thermometer and are using a thumper, put it on the column of the thumper. If it was me, I'd leave it out and focus on learning how to make cuts by taste and smell. Making cuts by taste and smell is the most reliable method and works no matter what because it eliminates all the variables of what's going on with the still and the wash. There is good information on how to do this in the stickys in the novice section. One of the best is the first post in the "distilling advice" stickie.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by Kiwi-lembic »

ScottishBoy wrote:Personally, I think its a matter of personal choice. Its kind of like having amp and oil pressure and and volt meters in your car. It might not serve much of a purpose to some folks, but others like to monitor and it does give them something to do. I recently added a thermometer to the top of my condenser unit and I kinda like seeing the temps change. It gives me something to do while Im waiting.
I have noted a tendency for some folks to despise them after they "master the technique". Once again, this is a personal preference.

If you want the thermo, put it in. If not then dont.
As long as it helps you with what your doing, who is anyone to judge?

Besides..this is supposed to be fun! ;) If you want a few extra strobes in your disco, then go for it!
nice answer scottish ..read the whole post ..it is like a thousand gardners thousand theorys isnt it
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by ScottishBoy »

Surprisingly, this subject is one of the hot topics. The feelings that this subject creates can be quite powerful and there are people in both camps.
In defense of one camp, its an easy way to learn to drive your still and it does give you something to do.
In defense of the other, the pot still is the simplest thing in the world and being able to drive without a thermo is a big plus.

Both sides are valid in their positions.

But...it is a double edged sword. I think it should be stated that it is acceptable, but you run the risk of becoming dependant on it. Its easy to fall into the "cut here and stop here" routine, but thats not what gets you great whiskey. At best, that will get you cookie cutter whisky which is just a few points above the commercial crap. While you can make some "okay" whiskey that way, your true great works will come from a lot of interaction and involvement in the product. Whisky cannot be made without love. A Thermo COULD put a little isolation/distance in that interaction.
Since it is the goal of nearly everyone here to make the finest whisky possible, many will tell you to simply not do it because of the risk of becoming dependant on "just making your cuts by ABV and temp". We all hope that our fellows will learn to make fine whiskey and they want to maximise your chances of doing so.

So, If you do it, then install it with the idea that this is something you will WANT to loose...like training wheels...:)
If things are going in the right direction you will reference it less and less, forget to even turn it one a few times, and then one day you will say to yourself "I think I will stick some wire in that hole and seal it up." If things are going wrong, you will find yourself still watching your thermo on your 20th batch and thinking " Yes I will start collecting hearts after it reaches XXX.X". Sadness, apathy and mediocre whisky are now your legacy.
The choice is, as always. yours and yours alone.
The truth is this may never be settled, but this is my attempt at a midpoint.

Hopefully that can satisfy both camps and we can continue with the pursuit of the best whisky we can possibly make!
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by Usge »

The issue is this:
Pot stills are different from reflux stills and they don't separate various boiling point fractions cleanly. They also vary a lot. As a result, you'll get different advice about temp/therms for any given run. I've pulled tails at 77%, I've pulled heads at 77%...to the thermometer (or hydrometer for that matter) it's "exactly" the same thing.

So, the point is this....use whatever you want or find helpful to observe, monitor, etc.....but use your senses to do your cuts between transition points. Convinced as some of you may be at this point that 80% is where "hearts" begin and a therm or hydrometer is an ok way to find it, I'm telling you that this an arbitrary number/average that may or may not be relevant on any given run or any given still. Another way to put it would be...the transition points between heads/hearts/tails can't be pre- measured/determined...only sensed. And the point of learning to measure..is to give your senses a starting frame of reference (ie., like start at 80%) and a way to check your findings. You'd just as well pick a number and choose your jars that way...mix it and see what you get. Sometimes its good, sometimes it's not. Then you see the next round of questions come up....ie "I used my therm/hydro to cut at 80% and this run tastes like crap. What happened?". If you do the same recipe, run, on the same still over and over..you may come to find an average...or point of reference to look for...and my point is...that number may be different than 80%. It could be higher. It could be lower. It's not a written in stone measurement you find with a therm or hydrometer.
Measure what you cut...not the other way around.

So, DO use whatever makes you happy to monitor and cross check yourself....so long as it doesn't keep you from learning to use and develop your senses for finding cuts and transition points. It's not a magical thing. It just takes some practice/runs.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by Kiwi-lembic »

ScottishBoy wrote:Surprisingly, this subject is one of the hot topics. The feelings that this subject creates can be quite powerful and there are people in both camps.
In defense of one camp, its an easy way to learn to drive your still and it does give you something to do.
In defense of the other, the pot still is the simplest thing in the world and being able to drive without a thermo is a big plus.

Both sides are valid in their positions.

But...it is a double edged sword. I think it should be stated that it is acceptable, but you run the risk of becoming dependant on it. Its easy to fall into the "cut here and stop here" routine, but thats not what gets you great whiskey. At best, that will get you cookie cutter whisky which is just a few points above the commercial crap. While you can make some "okay" whiskey that way, your true great works will come from a lot of interaction and involvement in the product. Whisky cannot be made without love. A Thermo COULD put a little isolation/distance in that interaction.
Since it is the goal of nearly everyone here to make the finest whisky possible, many will tell you to simply not do it because of the risk of becoming dependant on "just making your cuts by ABV and temp". We all hope that our fellows will learn to make fine whiskey and they want to maximise your chances of doing so.

So, If you do it, then install it with the idea that this is something you will WANT to loose...like training wheels...:)
If things are going in the right direction you will reference it less and less, forget to even turn it one a few times, and then one day you will say to yourself "I think I will stick some wire in that hole and seal it up." If things are going wrong, you will find yourself still watching your thermo on your 20th batch and thinking " Yes I will start collecting hearts after it reaches XXX.X". Sadness, apathy and mediocre whisky are now your legacy.
The choice is, as always. yours and yours alone.
The truth is this may never be settled, but this is my attempt at a midpoint.

Hopefully that can satisfy both camps and we can continue with the pursuit of the best whisky we can possibly make!


Scottish thats an excellent article ..new to the whiskey side of things i read many posts on this in here ,i got to yours (in another post a few days ago)and made my decision .
clearly understand what you are saying about not having them from this and all other posts ..thankyou
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by Kiwi-lembic »

usge..cheers for your great comments too
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by rad14701 »

A thermometer in a pot still is alright, just as long as you ignore it once the spirits start flowing... It's something to watch, to keep you at the still, during warm-up... But once the spirits start flowing you're probably better off hanging your hat over it and learning to read the spirits or use a parrots beak and alcometer...
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by kiwistiller »

ScottishBoy wrote: In defense of one camp, its an easy way to learn to drive your still and it does give you something to do.
In defense of the other, the pot still is the simplest thing in the world and being able to drive without a thermo is a big plus.
*cough*
There is a third camp that likes the idea of them as a general indicator of run progress (specially for stripping), just like a parrot, or boiling chips for that matter... :D
Pretty certain everyone agrees that they're no good for cuts.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by LWTCS »

Kiwi,
Unlodge that bit of crisp by tossing back the entire beer.

Potstillers will more often than not gage their input against the thickness of their out put.

The rest is up to their wits. Least thats how I think I'm learning it.

Howz that for restrained use of punctuation kiwi :ebiggrin:
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by kiwistiller »

Well the punctuation was good, but buggered if I understand what you're talking about?? :lol: :roll: Am I precluded from being a 'potstiller' because I also own a column? 80% of my stuff goes through the pot, I just don't limit myself to it. Not talking about inputs or outputs either, but progress. Temp in a pot can't tell you input.

For the record, I run the pot completely without instruments, no thermo, no parrot, no chips, except for shutdown point which I check with an alcometer. Shit, it's just a keg and a pipe, see the link in my sig. I don't look at the ABV until I check the hearts blend for diluting to aging if nessesary. But I would like a thermo in the boiler, it would be easier to glance at that than fill up my trial jar and check the ABV for shutdown.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by LWTCS »

We're on the same page.
kiwistiller wrote:Temp in a pot can't tell you input.
Size of my stream dictates my input adjustment during the course of the run. Thats all.

The rest was a cryptic commentary on the present state of my sobriety................ :mrgreen: ...............
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Post by blanikdog »

LWTCS wrote:Kiwi,
Unlodge that bit of crisp by tossing back the entire beer.

Potstillers will more often than not gage their input against the thickness of their out put.

The rest is up to their wits. Least thats how I think I'm learning it.

Howz that for restrained use of punctuation kiwi :ebiggrin:

The thickness of my output indicated that I had an enlarged prostate.
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