Rum Talk......

[Liquid_Luv]

I am no expert, and most of what I have learned was from this site and the wealth of first hand knowledge that comes from experience... I thank the members of this site who have freely given of their time to share. So perhaps I can give back a little of my own... I have it on very good authority, a retired rum blender from the Appleton Estate in Jamaica, that the role of properly aged dunder in creating a full rum profile is second to none. Dunder goes through several stages before being ready, each stage does something different for the flavor. It is possible to control, or limit the stages to exact a more consistent and controlled flavor profile. Dunder, if left undisturbed for at least 6-8 months, depending on climate, will go through all the stages. First stage, initial infection... a white mold starts in multiple little colonies, eventually spreading to cover the entire surface... the mold eventually begins to turn blue, like in blue cheese... this mould eventually starts to sink... The Dunder is now left with a spicy heavy molasses smell, quite pleasant... this first bacteria has fed mostly on any traces of dead yeast as well as the unfermentable solids from the molasses... after this stage, the dunder could well be used in the boiler with first run spirits... a second bacterial infection starts to form, a brownish mushroom color, a bit musty in initial aroma... this bacteria supposedly feeds of the first bacteria as well as any remaining solids... this will eventually die and settle once there is nothing left to feed on, it now smells richly carmel, butter-pecan and banana... to maintain the dunder pit, fresh dunder must be added following the first or near the end of the second infection... if allowed to go to total completion, the flavor profile is exceptional IMHO and closely replicates the rich flavor of Jamaican rum... So, to perfect and standardize the flavor profile using aged dunder, it is imperative to maintain at least two pits, one in which fresh dunder gets added as available, another in which the dunder is allowed to go to completion. Myself personally, I have an issue with putting anything in my mouth that looked so disgusting at any time... so to assure total destruction of the bacterial cultures and save my priceless aged dunder... in the freezer it goes, for at least a week... then I defrost and store in glass gallons to be used when required.

I make a cheap wash 50% white sugar, inverted... 50% Molasses by fermentable weight (fermentable sugar weight is 60% using fancy)
I usually mash in one large starchy converted potato or two medium (prepared same way as when I make vodka) this gives a rich velvety mouth on the spirit that can not be duplicated with any grains or fruit... it is something unique and special about potatoes.

When ready, I do a strip run... what is left in the boiler, then goes 50 % into my dunder pit, 50% to start my next wash.
I air the spirit then store in glass for a few weeks, until I am ready to spend a day doing a final spirit run... nice and slow through a copper pot still.

After seperating the fractions, I blend, then air twice a day for 15 minutes with air stone for 5 days... then leave to age on alligator charred wood. I use two parts oak, one part sugar maple. I do not put any fruits or any other added herbs or spices at this point... only when finalizing do I concider adding a hint of extracts, home made of course... such as raisin, pepercorns, vanilla, etc...

[kiwistiller]

Wow, that's a hell of a first post. Welcome and glad to have you!

So my dunder pit looks exactly like austin's up there, a brown powdery coating. Would this be the second stage? If you aren't interested in blending for consistancy, is it nessesary to do the two pit thing?

I note that you don't add it to the ferment - it was my understanding that it was adding it to the ferment that causes all the yummy esters and so on to be produced?

[LWTCS]

Yeah thanks for chimming in.

So difficult to get a feel for this.

[HookLine]

Nice one, LL. Thanks for that.

[Liquid_Luv]

WoW!!! I am honoured… thank you gentlemen… my very first post and I’ve been welcomed by three very prominent members… feels like I’m gonna like it here.

Kiwistiller, I’ve enjoyed many of your posts… I feel like we’ve known each other for a great many moons. From the looks of austin’s pit… looks like second stage, only much less bloom to the mould colony… however, depending on natural air born spores, a pit may unfortunately never receive the first species of bacterial culture… so in fact it is possible to only receive the bacterial strain found in the secondary culture… this will still develop the banana and much of the caramel or at least the spicy molasses… this is still well worthy of the time and effort of maintaining a dunder pit.

In response to your question… “ I note that you don't add it to the ferment - it was my understanding that it was adding it to the ferment that causes all the yummy esters and so on to be produced?”

I haven’t been at it long enough… my understanding is that it only makes a noticeable difference only once the yeast colony has been cultured to the same wash for several generations… only then can the bacterial infection co-exist in an synergetic relationship with the yeast (live dunder culture only)… therefore producing the sought after benefits… but keep in mind, much of what the bacterial infection does, it will do in the dunder pit as well as in a wash... only advantage to doing this in the wash is that the flavours marry younger then get to age together... could go either way no? Not sure what % of marriages end in the D_ word... oops... didn't say that!!!
as well, I ferment to at least 14-15% abv… the bacteria can’t withstand that level of alcohol, 7-8% is about all it can handle… as well, when going that route, you want to let the bacteria keep doing it’s thing on the unfermentable sugars left in the wash ( molasses is only 60% fermentable by yeast), let it go complete, then settle out, 'bout 2-3 months…
so, I am currently working on building up my inventory of everything required to produce better than commercial spirits  Eventually I will do a few batches in that tradition… once I get the results, I will post… until I have confirmed two or more times… I don’t waste other people’s time with hearsay… just plain substantial facts from me.

[LWTCS]

am currently working on building up my inventory of everything required to produce better than commercial spirits

Thats pretty easy unless your spending dough on real top shelf.

Eventually I will do a few batches in that tradition… once I get the results, I will post… until I have confirmed two or more times… I don’t waste other people’s time with hearsay… just plain substantial facts from me.

Good luck to you for us all. Tough to confirm on two batches. Specially when comparing against rum made with dunder from a 40 year old pit.

Anicdotal (in this instance) works too.
Glad to have more of this rum speak.

[blanikdog]

Thanks LL for an extremely helpful post. I've always tried to stop the mould. Back to the drawing board.

[blind drunk]

That's a great post L_L, lots to digest. I have one question: how can the bacteria keep working in a 14-15% wash if it can't withstand a wash between 7-8%? I can't resolve this. Am I missing something that's starring me in the face Cheers, bd.

[kiwistiller]

he adds his dunder to the spirit run, not ferment, so it's not a drama for him. Thanks for the answer, LL, look forward to hearing more about your rum adventures.

[blind drunk]

I see. Cheers, bd.

[HookLine]

Bacteria can be used in either in the dunder, with Propionibacterium thoenii and Clostridium propionicum, according to Maza-Gomez, or in the ferment itself with Clostridium saccharobutyricum, according to Arroyo.

he adds his dunder to the spirit run, not ferment, so it's not a drama for him.

That's interesting. A while back I added 3-4 litres of plain vodka to 40 litres of dunder and then did a low wines run on it, and it carried a bunch of flavour out with it. So I was planning on adding it to the next rum spirit run.

LL. How do you cover the dunder container?

[kiwistiller]

actually I was wondering about that as well. Who covers their dunder pit? who doesn't? mine is in a tighthead drum, currently closed, but seems to be funking up nicely anyway.