White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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Re:

Post by scarecrow » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:31 am

HookLine wrote:Vitamin B complexes can also be found in very large amounts in Vegemite, Promite, and Marmite
The only advantage I can see of these yeast spreads is that they have a lot of salt and sugar, besides the obvious yeast and malt extracts.
I wonder how much the salt helps the yeast.

Most multivitamins have much higher percentages of B group vitamins than vegemite. Some as much as 10X - 50X.

I've done trials with and without vegemite, and it made no difference (except the colour)

The only problem with multivitamins is that you end up with an orange tint through the wash because of the Beta-carotene (which is the stuff that makes a carrot orange). Might have to scrounge around for a beta-carotene-free multivitamin :D

Most multivitamins also contain Vitamin C - for that chlorine free feeling :lol:

Vegemite also contains Sulphur Dioxide as a preservative (gag, cough, splutter), which is probably used in just about every foodstuff know to man.

Saying that, it's hard to imagine toast without vegemite. :D

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by muckanic » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:30 pm

scarecrow wrote:The only problem with multivitamins is that you end up with an orange tint through the wash because of the Beta-carotene (which is the stuff that makes a carrot orange). Might have to scrounge around for a beta-carotene-free multivitamin :D
The B group multi's don't have carotene - that's a Vit A thing. Most still seem to have a yellow colour, which doesn't bother me too much.

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by highpower » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:27 am

sugar..ymmy.. nutritrant,, strong,, info** Good**

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Re: An example of variations for synthetic sugar wash

Post by VillaGorilla » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:03 pm

pintoshine wrote:So here is the cheapest combination.
Ferment a hand full of whole corn meal in a quart jar for three days.
Combine this with the 26-6-6 fertilizer, the HFCS, cheap one a day multivitamin, pinch of Epsom salt, solar dechlorinated water, rain water, or well water.
Can anyone elaborate on this step of making the EconoWash? Ferment a handful of corn meal in quart jar- Is this just cornmeal and water? I can't see it fermenting much in three days without adding yeast or sugar. I'm new, but I have searched the site for cornmeal ferment starter info, without luck. Could someone spell this out for me, ie. quantities of what in the quart jar.

- or -

Does this only apply to "The cheapest combination", using these specifically chosen elements from the various recipe categories : "26-6-6 fertilizer, the HFCS, cheap one a day multivitamin, pinch of Epsom salt, solar dechlorinated water, rain water, or well water". (And thus I'd forgo the fermented cornmeal if I chose any of the other ingredient combinations?)

Thanks

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Re:

Post by plaztikjezuz » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:26 pm

HookLine wrote:Good stuff, Pinto. If I may add a few comments:
A tip for using tap water. If you can set the tap water out in the direct sunlight uncovered in a shallow container, you can dechlorinate it in about 4 hours. This is cheaper than boiling. The UV from the sun causes the chlorine to combine with the free hydrogen in the water and it gases off really fast. My pool will dechlorinate 15000 gallons from 10ppm to nothing in a day without stabilizer. Tap water has no stabilizer.


Alternatively, you can add 1/10 tsp of vitamin C (as either sodium ascorbate or ascorbic acid) per 50 litres of wash, which will dechlorinate virtually instantly. You can buy them cheap from health food stores and a small pack lasts forever. Store in an airtight container in the fridge. Don't worry about putting in too much as it is hard to overdo it.
i would also point out that campden tablets or potassium/sodium metabisulfite with also treat chlorine/chloramine almost instantly it turns it into chloride and sulfate so if either of those are bad for the wash then i would use something else.

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by Serenity » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:29 am

HookLine wrote:I have never seen one with an N-P-K ratio of 20-20-20. That level of P would kill almost every plant species.
Except first early potatoes.

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by gravy » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:59 pm

The http://www.nutritiondata.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow site is great but some care is required in applying the information you find there. The site is designed for humans, not yeast, and we aren’t quite the same. Humans can digest complex protein but yeast cannot. Molasses contains no protein, but is does contain inorganic nitrogen (also called crude protein) that yeast can utilise but humans cannot. Molasses isn’t a great source of nitrogen, but it does contain about 10g per kg.

Here’s my sugar wash recipe for producing 18% ABV in 72 hours. These are the quantities I use in a 240 litre brew barrel:

Sugar 69kg
Yeast Uvaferm 43 50g
Citric Acid 550g
Sodium Bicarbonate 230g
Potassium Carbonate 230g
Silicone Anti Foam 80ml
Black Strap Molasses 6kg
Vegemite 325g
Soy Meal 500g
Urea 500g
MAP 250g

Here’s the process:

Mix the Citric Acid, Sodium Bicarbonate & Potassium Carbonate with water (adding a little at a time) in a large pot or bucket. This reacts to produce a Citric Acid/Sodium Citrate/Potassium Citrate pH Buffer. Set aside.

Soak the Soy Meal in water overnight to soften. Blend with the Vegemite, Urea, MAP, Molasses and enough water to make ~15 litres. I use a commercial stick blender to do this because it melts domestic ones. It should be smooth enough that it easily disperses when added to the sugar/water mix without clumping or floating.

Put the sugar in the brew barrel and dissolve in tap warm water. Add the pH Buffer and 10 litres of the nutrient mix. Heat or cool to 30°C as required.

Pour a litre of boiling water over a teaspoon of soy meal. Blend it smooth and when it has cooled to 40°C add the yeast. Stir gently to dissolve and rest for 15 minutes. Add 250mls of the wash and rest for another 15 minutes. Inoculate the wash.

I aerate the wash for the first 24 hours. I also have a submersible pump to provide circulation and prevent yeast from settling. This runs until the end of fermentation. I brew outside and with this size vessel you need active heating and cooling to keep the brew at the right temperature.

The fermentation will foam enough that antifoam is a good idea if you don’t have enough headroom in your brewing barrel. Add it when you see the foam start to form at ~12 hours.

I slowly decrease the temperature so its 27°C at the 24 hours point which is pretty much the end of the growth phase. Add the rest of the nutrients at this point.

The starting S.G. will be close to 1.120 and it will be 0.990 after 72 hours.

This recipe is fast and cheap, but you will need a good still to clean it up. I double distil because it requires less intervention and that’s important for batches this size. With this system I can process finished product output at 80% of 100% efficient theoretical maximums and less than $1 per 40% litre of clean spirit.

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by Bodhammer » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:32 pm

Pintoshine - How much Phosphoric acid should you add? I have 75% 5-Star food grade.

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by tony184k » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:50 am

what does dap stand for I have looked for meaning cant find thanks

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by Teddysad » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:23 pm

DAP is Di-Ammonium Phosphate

It is readily available at HBS or winemakers suppliers

It is a great source of nitrogen for the yeast
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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by tony184k » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:41 pm

what does dap stand for I have looked for meaning cant find thanks

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by Prairiepiss » Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:06 pm

A quick HD Google search brought up all kinds of hits for DAP. The second link is a recent thread asking the same question.
http://www.google.com/search?rls=en-us& ... &rls=en-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by tony184k » Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:53 pm

thanks

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by Dorokd » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:45 am

Help please!
It's my first fermentation.
My English is not good enought so I don't always understand the benefficial instructions written in this forum.
The question I still have is about adding nutrients to the sugar fermentation. My aim is to get a wash with the least flavours as possible' since I will distill it for medical alcohol (75%).
I statrted a fermentation with sucrose- 22 brix, using wine yeast. I added 3 g/Liter of DAP. What about the list of minelars noted in this post? Where do I get it? can it come "all in once"? What are the amounts needed? Will it not work without? What do I do if fermentation was started yesterday without any minerls. A winemaker told me to add some orange juice? Will it do the job?
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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by whiskymonster » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:28 am

Once you built your rig, this is possibly the most useful page on the site.
Certainly top ten!
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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by Fidget » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:27 am

Trapperjones wrote:The general purpose 20-20-20 is perfect and after using it for atleast 40 washes this year I can say no off tastes are carried through and doesn't seem to put any additional wear on my still. About 1/2 tsp for a 6 gallon wash.
Interesting. SO instead of spending time sourcing all the individual things raw ingreditents, O could just use garden fertiliser?

Would it need to be marked as organic, or non toxic? I know some fertilisers claim to be irritants and/or toxic - BUT consider that we are giving them to yeast to consume, not putting them direct into our mouths and eyes :crazy:


I may play it safe with tomato paste and youngs yeast nutrient :)

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by rad14701 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:54 am

Fidget wrote:
Trapperjones wrote:The general purpose 20-20-20 is perfect and after using it for atleast 40 washes this year I can say no off tastes are carried through and doesn't seem to put any additional wear on my still. About 1/2 tsp for a 6 gallon wash.
Interesting. SO instead of spending time sourcing all the individual things raw ingreditents, O could just use garden fertiliser?

Would it need to be marked as organic, or non toxic? I know some fertilisers claim to be irritants and/or toxic - BUT consider that we are giving them to yeast to consume, not putting them direct into our mouths and eyes :crazy:


I may play it safe with tomato paste and youngs yeast nutrient :)
As with any questionable ingredient, it is up to the end user to check the MSDS to insure that the ingredient is safe for fermentation purposes... That means no heavy metals or other dangerous components... Fertilizer needs to contain little or no urea... Even different fertilizers from the same manufacturer can vary greatly on ingredients... Of course organic fertilizers would be best...

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by FranklinNewhart » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:39 pm

I am wondering if other fertilizers other than DAP are suitable for yeast nutrients. I have a bag of Scotts Turf Builder 32-0-4. I went and found the Safety Data Sheet for it and the composition is Urea 60%, Ammonium sulphate 15%, Potassium sulphate 13%, Sulphur 7%, and Iron Sucrate 5%.

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by still_stirrin » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:04 pm

FranklinNewhart wrote:I am wondering if other fertilizers other than DAP are suitable for yeast nutrients. I have a bag of Scotts Turf Builder 32-0-4. I went and found the Safety Data Sheet for it and the composition is Urea 60%, Ammonium sulphate 15%, Potassium sulphate 13%, Sulphur 7%, and Iron Sucrate 5%.
Franklin, You have GOT to read the post right before yours...it answers your question...BEFORE you asked it! Geeez.
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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by UrToopid » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:17 am

rad14701 wrote:
Fidget wrote:
Trapperjones wrote:The general purpose 20-20-20 is perfect and after using it for atleast 40 washes this year I can say no off tastes are carried through and doesn't seem to put any additional wear on my still. About 1/2 tsp for a 6 gallon wash.
Interesting. SO instead of spending time sourcing all the individual things raw ingreditents, O could just use garden fertiliser?

Would it need to be marked as organic, or non toxic? I know some fertilisers claim to be irritants and/or toxic - BUT consider that we are giving them to yeast to consume, not putting them direct into our mouths and eyes :crazy:


I may play it safe with tomato paste and youngs yeast nutrient :)
As with any questionable ingredient, it is up to the end user to check the MSDS to insure that the ingredient is safe for fermentation purposes... That means no heavy metals or other dangerous components... Fertilizer needs to contain little or no urea... Even different fertilizers from the same manufacturer can vary greatly on ingredients... Of course organic fertilizers would be best...
There is a minor problem with a lot of organic fertilizers.. if the source says "porcine"... that means it comes from pork.. as in pork bones, blood
Meal, and even pork shit... these sources CAN pose a bacterial hazard even after being heated to 212 F. Just a word of caution...


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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by FranklinNewhart » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:31 pm

muckanic wrote:A couple of remarks:

1. In the beer world, I have proved to myself that inverting sugar doesn't achieve much, as fructose is responsible for the cidery flavours. Even if this was not the case, the question arises why yeast would have more trouble splitting sucrose than maltose, and AFAIAA no-one has ever addressed that issue. Folks also differ over the ease with which this inversion (which is really just hydrolysis) is supposed to occur. One school of thought suggests substantial inversion occurs in a normal brew boil anyway because hydrolysis is normally a thermodynamically favourable process. Others claim for some reason that it won't work at all without aggressive mineral acids.

2. Beware of the salt content in breakfast spreads, although I guess the amount needed to get some Vit B may not be a problem in practice.

3. Beware of urea-based fertilizers and nutrients due to the possibility of ethyl carbamate formation. This stuff is sufficiently volatile to be a concern.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/Foodb ... 119802.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow is a must read here.
I will quote an applicable passage from the document.
This quote would indicate that DAP is the only fertilizer that can or should be used.
Just a note Ethyl Carbamate is Urethane or Varnish.

• To avoid sluggish or stuck fermentations, it is permitted by BATF to add up to 8 lbs of
diammonium phosphate (DAP) per 1,000 gal (960 mg/L) to a nitrogen deficient must, which
translates into ca. 200 mg of nitrogen/L. However, excessive levels of nitrogen may contribute to
urea formation and excretion by yeast. Although some nutrients are required to accomplish an
optional malolactic fermentation, high nutrient levels at the end of fermentation can contribute to
microbial instability of a wine (see lactic acid bacteria).
• Yeast food preparations may add an unidentified level of yeast available nitrogen to a juice. It is
recommend that winemakers request the supplier to specify the different nitrogen sources.
• The use of urea as a fermentation supplement is prohibited. BATF has found that the use of urea is
not considered acceptable in good commercial practice among wine producers and has rescinded the
listing of urea as an authorized treatment (Federal Register, Vol. 55, No. 118, 24974-24982,
06/19/90).

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by joeymac » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:34 am

Just to chime in on ethyl carbamate (aka: "urethane"). Contrary to any name similarities, ethyl carbamate is NOT varnish, wood finish, or thermosetting polymer & rubber.
I'm not trying to say ethyl carbamate can'tt pose potential health concerns... but don't think you're drinking wood finish or dissolved rubber or anything specifically like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_carbamate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
"Structurally, it is an ester of carbamic acid. Despite its common name, it is not a component of polyurethanes."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyurethane" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
"Polyurethane products often are simply called “urethanes”, but should not be confused with ethyl carbamate, which is also called urethane. Polyurethanes neither contain nor are produced from ethyl carbamate."
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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by sugar glut » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:28 pm

E. Carbamate is not proven to be bad in small amounts. The Japanese study is the only one, and involved amounts orders of magnitude larger than found in distilling.

Inverting table sugar is not necessary for distilling. Avoid sugar when making beer or wine, and only when the daily mean temp is below 20C; acetaldehyde boils at 20C, Inverting uses a lot of energy unnecessarily, and the bugs will crack the disaccharide anyway. It is helpful to include a small percentage of monosaccharide/glucose to let the bugs build a healthy colony quickly. A healthy colony will rip into the table sugar. A dollop of molasses or beer goo will do. 30g of molasses in 150g of water is excellent for making a bug starter.
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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by cdd » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:29 am

can someone make a sugar wash recipe based on information in this podcast?

https://player.fm/series/distilling-cra ... some-sugar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by StillerBoy » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:43 pm

cdd wrote:can someone make a sugar wash recipe based on information in this podcast?
What is it that you would like to know about a sugar wash, as this thread gives you about the same things as stated in the podcast..

This thread provide you with all the options of making a good shine, provided you have done some before, if not then you need to learn what it take to make a good shine..

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by G8keeper » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:24 pm

I've been making TPW's & Weetbix washes for about 5yrs now with no failures. Admittedly I have a lot of work to do in speeding up the fermentation process but I'm patient and it hasn't proved a problem to me so far. Also I could certainly do some more experimenting with the quantity of tomato paste & weetbix that I use in my wash because although they both produce a fine quality shine IMHO (and so I've been told by other distillers), I can tell the difference between them in the bouquet & the flavour profile. I might try gradually reducing the amount of each to the point where it still produces a good ferment and see if it makes them smell & taste more similar.

I am also going to try experimenting with tinned Creamed Corn as a nutrient for my sugar wash and see what sort of a shine that produces. If anyone on here has already tried a sugar wash with Creamed Corn as a nutrient (yes hell yeah I have searched for this specifically) then I would be interested in hearing of your results/thoughts of it over say a TPW?

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by BoomTown » Fri May 15, 2020 7:57 pm

I am also going to try experimenting with tinned Creamed Corn as a nutrient for my sugar wash and see what sort of a shine that produces. If anyone on here has already tried a sugar wash with Creamed Corn as a nutrient (yes hell yeah I have searched for this specifically) then I would be interested in hearing of your results/thoughts of it over say a TPW?

Cheers
G8


So, how’d your creamed corn wash turn out?

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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by jedneck » Sat May 16, 2020 4:15 am

BoomTown wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:57 pm
I am also going to try experimenting with tinned Creamed Corn as a nutrient for my sugar wash and see what sort of a shine that produces. If anyone on here has already tried a sugar wash with Creamed Corn as a nutrient (yes hell yeah I have searched for this specifically) then I would be interested in hearing of your results/thoughts of it over say a TPW?

Cheers
G8


So, how’d your creamed corn wash turn out?

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I’d go
Per gallon
Sugar to sg of 1.06-08
2 cans corn
Maybe a small pinch epsom salt
Never used canned corn but thinkin there is few in the ujssm thread that have
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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by BoomTown » Sat May 16, 2020 6:21 am

So, on the 13th, I started a Sugar head, (with tomato paste, multi Vitamins, white cane sugar crystals) using 11/2 lbs per gallon, 4 gallon total. Original SG 1.070., casting temp 100F, 1 Tblp of Red Star Bakers yeast. The fermenter vessel is a 5g Plastic Water bottle, and fermentation temperatures have been 80F to 85f.

By all appearance, the wash is working, I can see the bubbles rising through the wash, there is a slight froth on top, and sucking vapor from the headspace gives significant alcohol hit. No significant byproduct orders.

But.. (you knew there has to be a but...right?)

SG this morning is 1.083, after 2.5 days of fermentation. The wash is still a nice rosy color, and the is no residue in the bottom of the fermenter. :angel:

My instrument may be 5 years old, but it worked fine last week.

Have I discovered a perpetual alcohol making formula, or what’s going on. :crazy:
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Re: White Sugar Nutrients Informantion

Post by Expat » Sat May 16, 2020 6:30 am

BoomTown wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 6:21 am
So, on the 13th, I started a Sugar head, (with tomato paste, multi Vitamins, white cane sugar crystals) using 11/2 lbs per gallon, 4 gallon total. Original SG 1.070., casting temp 100F, 1 Tblp of Red Star Bakers yeast. The fermenter vessel is a 5g Plastic Water bottle, and fermentation temperatures have been 80F to 85f.

By all appearance, the wash is working, I can see the bubbles rising through the wash, there is a slight froth on top, and sucking vapor from the headspace gives significant alcohol hit. No significant byproduct orders.

But.. (you knew there has to be a but...right?)

SG this morning is 1.083, after 2.5 days of fermentation. The wash is still a nice rosy color, and the is no residue in the bottom of the fermenter. :angel:

My instrument may be 5 years old, but it worked fine last week.

Have I discovered a perpetual alcohol making formula, or what’s going on. :crazy:
Did you correct for temp?
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