NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

[bigbuck]

not sure of water hardness and no shells added gonna give it another day to see what happens if it continues to get worse gonna pitch it and start over, whats the best yeast to use on this mash?

[der wo]

It would be good to find out, what was wrong before starting the next mash.
If you don't have a hydrometer, just strip all the alcohol out of the mash, then we will see, how much alc was in it. And taste the mash before.
What means "pitch it"? I don't understand everything here sometimes. Does it mean repitch yeast? This is useless. Does it mean to discard the mash into the drain? I would distill it. Perhaps everything is ok.
Which yeast? Any yeast, which likes the temperature where the mash ferments. Bakers yeast is ok if you have a normal room temperature or warmer.

[bigbuck]

thank you for the help der wo, and yes I meant throw it out if it does not straighten out, i will try to post pics of film on top

[bigbuck]

this is day 3

[yakattack]

You lucky bugger. That's an active lacto ferment. That's going to be tasty. Run it as soon as it's fermented. The lacto will eat the alcohol.

There's nothing wrong with your ferment. Run it.

[bigbuck]

wow are you serious,i was going to pitch it thinking it went bad, it is still bubbling slowly don't think its done yet

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

wow are you serious,i was going to pitch it thinking it went bad, it is still bubbling slowly don't think its done yet

What temp is it at? You should make sure to keep the temp high, this will give the yeast the upper hand to finish quicker than the lacto. When it's dry, run it.

[ShineRunner]

1. Am I overdoing it by using both malted grains and enzymes. Or is there such a thing here as too much of a good thing? Are the enzymes a waste of $$$ or is the increased efficiency still a good thing?
japsinok

There's a a fairly recent thread by MCH (MichiganCornHusker) where he did a comparison of a few different mashing techniques. May have been Called "mash off" or something like that. Anyways, his conclusion was that the enzymes helped with gaining a few extra points out of the mash. Sounds like you had plenty of sugar available, but it seems like they do definitely help. I plan to keep using them without needing to really test any further. Up to you if you think it's worth the money, but seems like you could cut back and save a little on grain and get the same gravity.

As a side note, enzymes do open up the door to other flavoring grains that don't have enzymes of their own. Think chocolate, roasted, or crystal barley... That's where I'm eager to start sampling!

SR

Edit: found it. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=63464

[japsinok]

Thanks SR, yes I have looked at that thread and saw the enzymes are the clear winner. Somehow, there is something appealing to me about trying to go truly "all grain" without enzyme addition, but I think perhaps I would rather have the few extra points of potential alcohol, so will likely just go with what is working for me (both grains and enzymes) since I want the grain profile, as well as sufficient gravity, and it already takes a considerable time commitment as it is. Fortunately, there is a LHBS less than 10 mins away (with a web site too) so it will be convenient to browse the grains and play around with mash bills, now that I am beginning to move beyond sugar washes.

Of course, I'll still do the occasional UJSSM just for old times sake since it is really quite good after aging on oak.

Japsinok

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

As a side note, enzymes do open up the door to other flavoring grains that don't have enzymes of their own. Think chocolate, roasted, or crystal barley... That's where I'm eager to start sampling!

You do NOT need enzymes to use specialty grains. When you use them, you really should use less than 10% anyways, so plenty of diastic power left over in the recipe to convert what you need, anyways. Besides the fact that most specialties (chocolate, roasted, crystal) have sugars already covered in their processing. I have experimented with ALOT of specialty grains, and have never used a drop of liquid enzymes.

I am at the moment drinking a chocolate bourbon, which is 5 lbs corn meal, 1/2 lb chocolate malt, 1/2 lb caramel malt, 3 lbs of barley malt. Taste like a stout in a whiskey glass. Perfect winter bourbon. I call it 'Sundae Bourbon' . My father in law was in heaven this year.

Simple trick is to put any specialties in with the corn during geletanization. Brings the flavor out, and helps with the thining of corn.

Here are a couple of my posted recipes using all malt and specialties malt that are no more harder than any other all grain batch. I am, and always will be, a traditionalist pro malt advocate. Here's some great recipes.

Honey Bear Bourbon. This is my favorite recipe. This has been done by lots of members, and they have had the same results. My favorite thing is that this is the best white dog you can do. The honey malt keeps the white sweet, so even 2 or 4 months later it still has that sweet flavor.

Smokey Toasty This uses smoked grains, and toasted grains. Was very good. Lots of depth.

Experiment. I find you can put grain bills together like cooking a nice sauce. Just make at least 30% of it malted barley, wheat and/or rye, and you can make anything you want. No bottled enzymes required

[japsinok]

Thanks SCD, those are some great tips. It's good to know that you can actually get away from enzymes when you want, and still get a great end result.

This hobby sure stays interesting!!

Japsinok

[der wo]

film on mash.jpg

this is day 3

Such a lacto on day 3 ???
Is it possible that a mash ferments most of the sugar in alcohol and then after all in all 3 days such a lacto layer is formed already? Or is such a layer only possible, if the lacto worked alone from day one?
I don't know. I doubt that there is much alcohol in it. Again: Run it. And do measurements before if possible.

[der wo]

You do NOT need enzymes to use specialty grains. When you use them, you really should use less than 10% anyways, so plenty of diastic power left over in the recipe to convert what you need, anyways. Besides the fact that most specialties (chocolate, roasted, crystal) have sugars already covered in their processing. I have experimented with ALOT of specialty grains, and have never used a drop of liquid enzymes.

Yes. BTW: It's also possible to mash 100% speciality malts. And it's drinkable. And then of course you need liquid enzymes. And with very dark malts you must add sugar, because the starch is not convertable even with added enzymes.

[japsinok]

Mashed the second round of nchoochCB this weekend, toward getting enough for a spirit run. Doubled the recipe to a 20#/10 gallon mash since Mrs. Claus put a 60 qt BOP under the tree last week. My lesson for the weekend is that doubling the mash is more than double the work, at least the first time. I used double the amount of water to hydrate and pre-mash, but BOY, did the grain soak up that water!!. Despite mashing yesterday following precisely the same protocol as the last time in 5 gallons with only doubling amounts (or at least I thought that was the only change), this morning after saccharification, the mash was still a gloppy mass, with little liquid to strain to check OG. I suppose it cooked down more than I thought. So, added 1.5 gallons water, mixed and then checked OG. It was at 1.085 and only mildly sweet, but failed the iodine test. So, lots of starch, but little in the way of mono- or disaccharides. Re-heated to 150 and added alpha-amylase, covered and left to cool on its own to 140 (several hours). It was at 138 when I added the AG300L glucoamylase. Finally passed the iodine test after a few more hours and OG was up to about 1.088. Split the mash into two fermenters, topped off each to 5 gallons with water, which brought both down to ~1.075, cooled to high 80's and pitched the DADY (without fermax this time). Within 90 mins they are both now bubbling already at 80F. So far so good. I hope all of the extra handling and time did not introduce any nasties, as I tried to be as sanitary as possible. Time (and my nose) will tell.

I already have a barrel fermenter but my other lesson is to work up to a larger mash. At this time, anything more than 10 gallons would be biting off more than I can chew. My congratulations to you fellars that can mash 40~50 gallons at one time.

there's always more to learn,
japsinok

[nerdybrewer]

<snip>

I already have a barrel fermenter but my other lesson is to work up to a larger mash. At this time, anything more than 10 gallons would be biting off more than I can chew. My congratulations to you fellars that can mash 40~50 gallons at one time.

there's always more to learn,
japsinok

I can only mash 25 gallons at a time, that's the size of my BOP.
Since I started by mashing 25 gallons at a time I have no knowledge of it being easier because I've never mashed less.
In order to get 50 - 60 gallons in the fermenter I have to do two batches and it does grow to 60 gallons due to adding water like you mentioned.
I admit it's damn hard work, but is so very worth it.
I've been thinking about how I could ramp up and it would require much bigger hardware or more copies of the same hardware I'm using now.
Thinking about getting multiple 25 gallon mashes going at once gives me some pause.

[bigbuck]

I have noticed that 6 row malted barley is starting to disappear from local brew suppliers for whatever reason, I have read that 2 row will work just not as good, is there an additive that is comparable to 6 row or is 2 row gonna cut it? maybe use more 2 row? I bought the last 6 row my supplier is going to get, I can still find it online but shipping costs defeats the purpose

[der wo]

Instead of for example 30% 6-row in the grain bill use 35% 2-row. Try to find "distillers malt" or "diastatic malt" or unpeated "whisky malt". They have a higher beta-amylase content. If you don't find one of them, use a normal light malt like Pilsner or Pale Ale.

[still_stirrin]

I have noticed that 6 row malted barley is starting to disappear from local brew suppliers for whatever reason, I have read that 2 row will work just not as good, is there an additive that is comparable to 6 row or is 2 row gonna cut it? maybe use more 2 row? I bought the last 6 row my supplier is going to get, I can still find it online but shipping costs defeats the purpose

This question really belongs in the "Grains" forum. There's already discussions on this subject there.
ss

[bigbuck]

first run of nchooch bourbon was a disaster, I just wanted to share what I think went wrong,
#1 brand new thermometer was off by 53 degrees, (big ole P.O.S)
#2 fermenter was not completely air tight
#3 grains were not ground fine enough
#4 failed to make yeast bomb when introducing yeast to wash
#5 did not aerate wash
so i suspect i got little to no conversion, went ahead and ran it anyway and man was it fowl smelling and only got 50 proof on fore shots, decided to toss it all and go again, someone mentioned in thread that most people will screw up an AG wash on first go around and man they were right!!!
gonna keep at it until i get it right



thanks to all in thread who helped me with questions!!
expecially der wo

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

first run of nchooch bourbon was a disaster, I just wanted to share what I think went wrong,
#1 brand new thermometer was off by 53 degrees, (big ole P.O.S)
#2 fermenter was not completely air tight
#3 grains were not ground fine enough
#4 failed to make yeast bomb when introducing yeast to wash
so i suspect i got little to no conversion, went ahead and ran it anyway and man was it fowl smelling and only got 50 proof on fore shots, decided to toss it all and go again, someone mentioned in thread that most people will screw up an AG wash on first go around and man they were right!!!
gonna keep at it until i get it right



thanks to all in thread who helped me with questions!!
expecially der wo

I don't know the details of your mash and what not, but you might be right, and you might just be freaking out.

1) I don't know start to say about this. Except, even without a thermometer, I can tell you the difference between 200 and 147 and 94.

2) who cares? Alot of the most successful all grain brewers don't even put a lid on. Open top, baby.

3) Perhaps. But my level of malt is simply "crushed". Corn is corn meal though. What was your SG?

4) You do not need a yeast bomb with all grain. Rhett are nutrients in the madly that provide that. A big starter is helpful, though.

5) Aerate? Good to do, but ain't going to run a ferment. Especially if you use a big enough starter, or pitch right on the yeast cake. Just means the yeast don't multiply as much, and get to eating sugar quicker.

Gotta be honest with you, I'm not entirely sure you needed up. Your going to have to convince me off that.

First, 50% fores on an all grain strip run is great! All grains are usually lower abv, but better quality- AFTER your second run through. My all grains low wines are cloudy and stinky as all get out, and strips are usually no more than 50%. If I get 58, I'm tickled. And my still produces great results on average for abv.

Second, as I enjoyed to, all grains can be stinky. That raw grain smell can be off putting the first time you experience. It's raw, it's different, from all other sugar heads you've done. Only, I think, a molasses rum strip is scarier out the gate. But you should taste what I can get out of that after a spirit run and some time on oak. Pow! Wow!

Even the beer guys, who are drinking the mash straight, live by the rule that you never throw anything out. Even a bad beer will surprise you when you age it. And we are cooking and sterilizing it, and giving it time to put its molecules back together. NEVER throw it out.

Oh, and in case the next person that reads this doesn't know. Barley malt, ESPECIALLY 6 row, when distilled has a very earthy, dirty, chewy taste, that can be almost bitter and dry in your mouth. But after 4 months, that characteristic changes, and that is what gives it the final sweet taste. Truly remarkable change. Only smell to be scared of is baby puke vomit poo. All else you boil, collect, and age.

[der wo]

Ok. We have a mash, he tried to convert at a total wrong temp, after three days it has a bacterial carpet and bubbles only very slow. It smells foul and like acetone and when distilling the initial proof was 50pr/25%.
Of course it's failed!

Yes, a yeast starter or bomb is not needed. But a few here do it. Aerating is needed IMO. Malt should be milled fine IMO, at least if you have 30% or less malt in the grain bill.

He was pm me, I helped a bit, then I wrote him, that when it has cleared up, why the mash failed, he should write about in the thread. I am also not sure it has cleared up, before he has mashed the next mash successfully.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Ok. We have a mash, he tried to convert at a total wrong temp, after three days it has a bacterial carpet and bubbles only very slow. It smells foul and like acetone and when distilling the initial proof was 50pr/25%.
Of course it's failed!

Yes, a yeast starter or bomb is not needed. But a few here do it. Aerating is needed IMO. Malt should be milled fine IMO, at least if you have 30% or less malt in the grain bill.

He was pm me, I helped a bit, then I wrote him, that when it has cleared up, why the mash failed, he should write about in the thread. I am also not sure it has cleared up, before he has mashed the next mash successfully.

Yep. I missed that about 50 proof. Read it as %. That was my oversight.

Sure, areating is important, but it isn't going to ruin your mash if everything else is right. Well just start slow.

You can mill malt to a flour, but I get just fine conversation with crushed grains, although I msg for hours with whiskey. Really, I mash in, sure a couple times, and then go to bed. Cool and pitch the next day.

What good is a yeast bomb really doing in a malt all grain recipe? There's more meetings than will ever be needed in it. Even piggy banks off of all grain Rhett USD still plenty of nutes.

[der wo]

I now hear the first time of his bullshit thermometer. When I was pm with him, he didn't know that. So I thought more, that it is a mixture of bad conversion and a bad yeast start (no aeration). Now I think the wrong temp was mistake no.1, perhaps the only deadly mistake.

But why he got this incredible fast infection? I wrote him:

Even if you mashed extrem unsterile, a healthy yeast should fight those infections successfully. Perhaps your yeast did not multiply enough at the beginning? Do you have aerated the mash before pitching the yeast? Yeast needs oxygen at the beginning and mashing boils all oxygen off. Hd google search with terms like "aeration", "multiplying", "yeast starter", "yeast bomb".

I didn't say he must make a yeast bomb. It was only one of a few terms I gave him, that he can do his own research.

[bigbuck]

I just figured I would give the yeast a jump start, I got a new thermometer that reads correctly and cooked a new batch of corn off last night and mixed 6 row at right temp this time, when mash cooled this morning and all water was mixed it did in fact have a sweetness to it so I am assuming it got converted, got in a hurry and air locked it and had to leave and forgot to check SG, (I know I know I should have) don't know what the infection was on the last batch but it smelled bad when I ran it (almost puked) der wo was very helpful helping me correct my mistakes along with everyone else, I think I got it this time but only time will tell, it was a huge learning curve for me and it is much more complex than a sugar based wash, the way I see it is gather as much info as I could, go for it and see what happens, only way to correct it is to keep trying until I can get it right, give er a week and see what happens, thanks

[japsinok]

I just figured I would give the yeast a jump start, I got a new thermometer that reads correctly and cooked a new batch of corn off last night and mixed 6 row at right temp this time, when mash cooled this morning and all water was mixed it did in fact have a sweetness to it so I am assuming it got converted, got in a hurry and air locked it and had to leave and forgot to check SG, (I know I know I should have) don't know what the infection was on the last batch but it smelled bad when I ran it (almost puked) der wo was very helpful helping me correct my mistakes along with everyone else, I think I got it this time but only time will tell, it was a huge learning curve for me and it is much more complex than a sugar based wash, the way I see it is gather as much info as I could, go for it and see what happens, only way to correct it is to keep trying until I can get it right, give er a week and see what happens, thanks

Just want to send encouragement to keep at it. I too am having a go with my first AG batch of NChooch CB. You are right, it's entirely different from the UJ sugar washes that now seem so simple by comparison. Hopefully the thermometer was the source of the problem for you. My advice is to not let anything touch the mash that has not been sterilized, once it is below 140F. I keep a spray bottle of starsan handy for a quick spray and rinse before any utensils (paddle mixer, ladle, stirring spoon, etc) goes in. So far so good (knocking on wood). Although I like to see that airlock bubble away, I have stopped being concerned about it, especially if I see activity in the fermenter (mine are clear so I can see the churning and yeast farts bubbling to the top). Since CO2 is heavier than air, it creates a layer on top of the mash so not being sealed should not cause any infection problem, so long as it's not left uncovered for very long. I haven't had trouble with lack of aeration, though I stir it a lot so probably introduce sufficient air back into the mash after boiling. Just got a refractometer yesterday so I hope to have more faith in OG/FG measurements going forward. Try to get that OG when the mash goes in the fermenter. It'll help you know what to expect in your yield. Northern brewer has some useful calculators to determine %abv going into the boiler, as well as conversions if you are using a refractometer, if you have the OG and the FG or any intermediate SG measurement during the ferment.

Good Luck,
Japsinok

[tosoutherncars]

Hey all,

I'm fermenting on the grain... the recipe says to put through the still after a week, but I'm still getting bubbles through the air lock at Day 13.

Thoughts? Wait for it to finish? Run it anyway?

[still_stirrin]

I'm fermenting on the grain...Thoughts? Wait for it to finish? Run it anyway?

If its not done fermenting, it's not yet time to run it. Wait for it to finish, let it settle a few days, and then rack to your boiler.

Patience is a virtue!
ss

[bigbuck]

I have yet to have a ferment go past 7 days, first 2 washes produced 1 gallon of 178 proof second was I gallon 160 proof still waiting on the third to finish to do final spirit run, this mash gets a lot easier after you get a couple AG under your belt, but cooking and stirring the corn is the worst part that's why me and my buddy do a double batch at one time on 2 separate burners so they can cool at the same rate to have a full still charge

[NcHooch]

Hey all,

I'm fermenting on the grain... the recipe says to put through the still after a week, but I'm still getting bubbles through the air lock at Day 13.

Thoughts? Wait for it to finish? Run it anyway?

I would generally run it after a week.
Remember, you never boiled the wort, so it would be considered a dirty wort, full of Lacto from the malted barley.
If it's 90% done after a week, run it, rather than risk the bacteria going to work.

[Pikey]

My "old book" says that lactic fermentation can proceed only in a neutral solution and the acid produced soons checks it. However you then run the rsik of a further Butyric fermentation which not only is "another intolerable waste of sugar" but the hydrogen produced converts glucose to manite gum.

I have no experience, except I know I have a lacto infected ferment going too, which I stopped in it's tracks by adding citric acid. I do have a yellow ring of deposit around my fermenter which looks incredibly like butter ! But I'm letting it work it's way out and will run when the time is right (ie 1.000 ) The ferment is very slow - but temperature is low.

Don't know if that helps - just my experience to date.