Lager and ale question

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still_stirrin
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by still_stirrin »

:thumbup: Good puts Jimbo. Or, is that, "putz"? :lol:

Excellent description of the processes. Thx.
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by Jimbo »

DFitz wrote:I use a similar temp controller. STC1000+ has been programmed to accept several differ fermentation profiles. My lager profile automatically goes through the fermentation duration, then ramps up automatically for diacetyl rest, then ramps down to lagering temps. without any assistance. The ramp is about 1 degree per hour, 24 hours to diacetyl then 48 hours to lager. Pretty nifty for $20.
Nice Fitz where did you find that? Manually, gradually adjusting the temps is a PITA.
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by DFitz »

Jimbo wrote:
DFitz wrote:I use a similar temp controller. STC1000+ has been programmed to accept several differ fermentation profiles. My lager profile automatically goes through the fermentation duration, then ramps up automatically for diacetyl rest, then ramps down to lagering temps. without any assistance. The ramp is about 1 degree per hour, 24 hours to diacetyl then 48 hours to lager. Pretty nifty for $20.
Nice Fitz where did you find that? Manually, gradually adjusting the temps is a PITA.
I stumbled onto it on homebrewtalk. Scan through the for sale section. It's basically a flashed STC-1000. Reads F too which is a plus. I'll see if I can dig something up. I messaged back & forth with the guy I bought it from so that'll be a good lead.
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Re: Lager and ale questi

Post by goinbroke2 »

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote:
goinbroke2 wrote:Pitched yeast last night and 12 hrs or so later......very minimal activity. I know I'm used to a 75 degree rolling boil when fermenting for whisky, but this is somewhat disconcerting. I'll check on it this afternoon after church and hopefully by then it's taken off. I was thinking of keeping it around 70 the first week then racking and then lowering it to 55-60, maybe I should have. If it hasn't done anything by tonight I,ll warm it up to 70.

Should I use my keg as a secondary or no? Just thinking it would be easier to do that and then add co2 to the keg when done fermenting instead of racking it a second time. Anybody else do that or does it leave too much sediment in the bottom of the keg?
Leave it alone.
I think this sums it up quite nicely lol!

Still no "movement" but there is a thick crouzen..cruzen...cro....thick layer of yeast foam on top so I moved it over onto the tiles in the basement and will let it sit for the next few months. Excellent tip about not having to rack it into a secondary.
Funny thing, I moved last summer and threw my old chest freezer out but it only got as far as the car trailer behind the shop. One of those "get to it" things but I never got to the dump...I guess I'll plug it back in and use it for lagering now lol!
As far as setting the temp, I'm leaving the buckets in the basement which is a constant 55-60, after that (a month or two) if I have to drop them lower for longer term lagering then I'll figure on a controller or whatever. Just want to burn one bridge at a time...no wait, I mean..lol!
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by Jimbo »

*krausen ;)

Yup if you've come to the realization youre a lager head (loggerhead? LOL) You really need to fire up that chest freezer. 90% of any success with lagers is about proper temps for those 3 stages I outlined below. And unlike with ale's, you cant do it without some temperature help. (Unless you like steam beer's, but thats another discussion :roll: )

Couple more tips while we're at it. When dropping from 68 to 38, the pressure change might suck some airlock water in, so use vodka, just in case. And since you now have the chest freezer set up and can easily swing temperatures around wherever you need them, add a 4th rest at 32F for a couple days to cold crash the beer. It will brighten it up. Nothing like a sparkling clear homebrewed lager.

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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

I really can't say enough good things about this product.

Inkbird 310 Programmable

I have the 308, it doesn't have the timeable, programmable temp thing the 310 does. But I am not a lager guy, anyways. Love my ales.

Anyways, you can find it other places, but that is my personal vendor. Couple that plug-in ready-to-go controller with a heat wrap and upgraded 12" probe, and life is easy. :thumbup:
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by goinbroke2 »

Oh, man I can see the wife screaming now since I've got so much distilling equipment "cause I really, really need it" as well as thousands of dollars of tooling for the racecar/ engine building etc and NOW I'm going to say I need this stuff for making beer....ohh, I can see an argument coming! lol!
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by Jimbo »

goinbroke2 wrote:..say...
This is the crux of your problem.
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by Jimbo »

ShineOn, at first glance that controller looks great. But unfortunately while it allows for 6 different temp points, it does not allow for a timed scale between the points. So a drop from diacetyl (65F) to lagering (38F) will happen suddenly at once and shock the yeast to dormancy. The one Fitz points to adds a programmable ramping feature for adjusting the ramp time between setpoints.
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by goinbroke2 »

Jimbo wrote:
goinbroke2 wrote:..say...
This is the crux of your problem.
Lol!
True dat!!! :clap:
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by goinbroke2 »

So, after setting it on the cool (cold?) tile I checked this morning and the krausen is gone! :shock:
Oh no, I put it into hibernation, I cooled to quickly, i.... So I walked away and went to work.

Checked tonight and it's brown liquid...dead...nothing..wait, what's that noise?

ITS ALIVE!!!!

Sizzling away! Ok, now I will forget about it for a month or so.
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by Jimbo »

Lagers go slow. You can't watch em like ales
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by WooTeck »

goinbroke2 wrote:So, after setting it on the cool (cold?) tile I checked this morning and the krausen is gone! :shock:
Oh no, I put it into hibernation, I cooled to quickly, i.... So I walked away and went to work.

Checked tonight and it's brown liquid...dead...nothing..wait, what's that noise?

ITS ALIVE!!!!

Sizzling away! Ok, now I will forget about it for a month or so.
the krausen should drop to the bottom if your using lager yeast. sounds like your having fun with it and thats the important part. looking forward to hearing about it when its done.
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by goinbroke2 »

I've actually not looked at it in TWO DAYS! I was taking a peek but decided to forget about it for a month or two and then check it out. Finally found one thing that procrastination is suited for! lol!
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by goinbroke2 »

Built the cap for the keg, 2" ss cap and two pieces of copper tubing 1/4" dia. Tomorrow I'll check the sg to see where it is. Been what, 21 days so far?

One question, do I rack it into the keg and add 30 psi of co2 and let it lager like that, or do I let it lager for a few months then keg and pressurize?


Gotta read more on beer I guess...
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by goinbroke2 »

So, the sg was 1.045 and it is now at 1.008. Basically started at 6 percent and now it's at a strong 1 percent. The instructions said ft should be anywhere from 1.002 to 1.012 (seems pretty wide margin)

So, I have an Abv of appr 5 percent, should I keg it and leave it to secondary ferment in the keg or leave it in the buckets? My concern, or thinking is that the keg would have a smaller neck to keep covered and stuff out as opposed to leaving it in pails with only a garbage bag pulled down over it.

Thoughts?
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by WooTeck »

id keg it but i wouldnt put 30lbs of pressure i usually go for 10psi at 3c
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by goinbroke2 »

10 lb's? Oh,ok. I read somewhere 30 psi for a couple days. What do you suggest for time, 10 psi for a couple of days or shorter/ longer?

Thanks for the help :thumbup:
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

goinbroke2 wrote:10 lb's? Oh,ok. I read somewhere 30 psi for a couple days. What do you suggest for time, 10 psi for a couple of days or shorter/ longer?

Thanks for the help :thumbup:
What you're describing is force carbing . It's a method that you over carb the keg for 2 days, to try and get to 10 quicker. But, after 2 days you need to pull the pin to release the pressure, and bring it down and reset to 10. Otherwise you will severely over carb.

I used to do this method when I first started kegging, mostly out of impatience. But really, it's not necessary. If you just leave it kegged for a week at normal pressure, it will be about the same and where you need it, anyway.

The fact that you are lagering means you are not looking to drink it in 2 days, anyways, and therefore in no rush. The force carb method really does you no good.

On a side note, I keep my beer at 12 psi and 38 degrees. I would like a warmer setting, but the lines create to much foam, and I haven't changed them out yet.
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by goinbroke2 »

ok, just finished racking it into the keg. going to cover it with a plastic bag until I get my SS cap with the copper lines in it home from work. So, let it lager for a month or so and THEN put the CO2 in, or add CO2 and lager it for two months. Thatès weird, now my keyboard is messing up, I have no question mark, just É.
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by goinbroke2 »

Holding a steady 14lb's of co2......waiting......and waiting...........and waiting........


I think I'll go back to whisky, this waiting sucks. At least whisky I can shake it and see it colouring and play with it...this is just sitting in a SS keg.......waiting.....and waiting.........How long until May again? :cry:
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by bitter »

while your waiting make a few more batches to keep the pipeline full.
B
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by goinbroke2 »

Can't...well I could I suppose, but I would have to make another sanke top with valves etc to fit another keg. Naw one keg full is good for a starter, if I like it that much, or go through it that quickly I'll decide that then. Can't wait for a hot sunny day to pour the first one. Snowing like a bastard here now so obviously it's going to lager longer. Lol.
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
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Re: Lager and ale question

Post by homebrewer007 »

The biggest difference between ales and lagers as stated above is the yeast strain used to ferment the beer. I normally ferment my ales at 62*F for three to four weeks and my lagers at 52*F for six to eight weeks. There are some things we need to keep in mind between the two styles though. First off the word lager means to store, so the lager is going to lager at a low temp of usually 38-40*F for another four to six weeks before it is ready to serve. Another thing to keep in mind is due to the low fermentation temp the yeast is working slowly and not going to blow off many of the off flavors that an ale yeast would at higher temps. We normally do a diacytial rest after primary fermentation for 24 hours at about 65* F. Once the rest is complete we then cold crash the beer in a brite tank at 38*F and purge with C02. Fermentation has completed at this point, and we want to ensure oxidation does not occur. What we hope to achieve during the lagering process is a crisp clean beer that has been fermented at a low temp; This will not result in any esters or off flavors through fermentation. At this point we might add gelatin finnings to the tank to try to clear the product even more. According to the style guidelines, beers such as Pilsners should be crystal clear.

As far as the grain bill goes, lagers are recipe specific. We do not normally see grains like Pilsner Malt used in an ale recipe unless we want a specific character from it. It is becoming more popular to use Pilsner malt in West Coast Style IPAs to bring out the dry malt character while driving home the late hop additions in the beer. In lagers however, we see Pilsner malt make up to 70% of the grain bill. We also have to keep in mind if we want to brew true to style we can not add anything except hops, malt, yeast, and water to the beer. According to the German Purity Law no chemical additions or adjuncts may be added to beer. We usually see Acid malt added to lower the mash PH instead of adding brewing salts to get the desired PH.

When using Pilsner Malt it is important to remember that a step mash is beneficial. We usually recommend doing a protein rest at 127* F for fifteen minutes and then our scarification rest at 152* F for 60 minutes. A mash longer than 60 minutes is really not doing much considering conversion takes place within 35 minutes of the mash in most cases. We do however want to do a sparge and mashout to ensure we are rinsing all the sugars we can possibly get and increasing our mash efficiency.

Some traditional die-hard brewers still do a decotion mash, but after much debate the industry has agreed due to the high quality of the malted barley the decotion is no longer absolutely necessary. If we were using six row barley the story would be much different.

The boil changes a bit too. When using Pilsner Malt the sulfide content is much higher than that of regular two row, so a 90 minute boil is needed to blow off the additional DMS which is in solution. Now for most of my ales I do a 90 minute boil anyway to achieve mailard reactions, and also add 90 minute hop additions.

I always recommend doing a yeast starter when dealing with lager yeasts. Well, I recommend making a starter no matter what, but defiantly when making lagers. Lagers ferment at a retarded rate so ensuring you have enough healthy cells in the beer to finish the job is very important. I also aerate to a higher degree in my lagers than I normally do in my ales. I like to introduce pure medical grade O2 with a diffusion stone for about 10 seconds in order to ensure my yeast has enough oxygen in solution to do its job.
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