slight sugar taste in bourban
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slight sugar taste in bourban
I get a slight sugary taste in my bourbon on most runs. I make a decent bourbon of 75% corn, 17% barley and 8% rye. I just tasted a sample of some than is about to come off the charred oak. It is perfect , Needs to age about another 2 weeks or so. used us 05 yeast and in fermenter 8 days.
So I poured a glass from the previous batch and taste a slight sweetness on initial sip. Something I have tasted in other batches.
What am I doing to cause this?
I mash in a bop, with elect. stirrer. corn at 190F for 90 minutes grains at 145F for 60 min. using high temp. enzyme on corn. (Pintoshines method) Most of the time I cover overnight and transfer to fermenter off the grain.
Ferment with bakers yeast usually at 80F 4-6 days. sometimes with US 05 at 68F. 2-3 strip runs and then a spirit run.
I have noticed this slight sweetness on initial sip in other all grain barley batches I have made also. (Jimbos all grain) mashed in my grainfather at 148f.
Where do you think it is occurring, in mash, ferment and why? Not that the slight sweetness is bad, just wish I could control it but at a loss of how to go about it.
thanks
So I poured a glass from the previous batch and taste a slight sweetness on initial sip. Something I have tasted in other batches.
What am I doing to cause this?
I mash in a bop, with elect. stirrer. corn at 190F for 90 minutes grains at 145F for 60 min. using high temp. enzyme on corn. (Pintoshines method) Most of the time I cover overnight and transfer to fermenter off the grain.
Ferment with bakers yeast usually at 80F 4-6 days. sometimes with US 05 at 68F. 2-3 strip runs and then a spirit run.
I have noticed this slight sweetness on initial sip in other all grain barley batches I have made also. (Jimbos all grain) mashed in my grainfather at 148f.
Where do you think it is occurring, in mash, ferment and why? Not that the slight sweetness is bad, just wish I could control it but at a loss of how to go about it.
thanks
- ShineonCrazyDiamond
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Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
What's your usual fg?
I recently experimented with high fg's ranging from 1.02 to 1.04 (well, more of a stubborn I'm going to run it anyways, I don't care if you won't dry out, you sob barrel). I noticed that the higher the fg, the sweeter my bourbon. Even Had to change cuts to balance. Yes, less alcohol, but packed with different sweet flavors.
This was noticeable in the white dog.
Now, If you are saying only after the wood, then your char level can create lots of caramel sweetness.
Also, I find barley can turn from a grain flavor while fresh and white, to an awesome sweetness after oak and aging.
Safe to say I know how to make a sweet bourbon . Any of these are a direction for you to play around with
I recently experimented with high fg's ranging from 1.02 to 1.04 (well, more of a stubborn I'm going to run it anyways, I don't care if you won't dry out, you sob barrel). I noticed that the higher the fg, the sweeter my bourbon. Even Had to change cuts to balance. Yes, less alcohol, but packed with different sweet flavors.
This was noticeable in the white dog.
Now, If you are saying only after the wood, then your char level can create lots of caramel sweetness.
Also, I find barley can turn from a grain flavor while fresh and white, to an awesome sweetness after oak and aging.
Safe to say I know how to make a sweet bourbon . Any of these are a direction for you to play around with
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Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
I'd say you are doing everything right. It's nice to have a sweetness in white bourbon.
If you are looking to counteract it with bitterness (i think thats the opposite of sweetness) add some tails. it would improve on long term aging for complexity and may give you what you want when young.
i find corn distillates sweet, actually most distillates a bit sweet if they are done right (imho)
aging on oak is definitely going to sweeten it up. I had a 100% rye white that had a big flavour, a bit bitter on the finish. put some wood in it at 50% and it went really spicy. so much so, i filled a barrel with the pre-oaked stuff and stuffed some extra cubes in the barrel upped the proof to 62% and after just about 10 days it has turned really sweet. (new barrel)
If you are looking to counteract it with bitterness (i think thats the opposite of sweetness) add some tails. it would improve on long term aging for complexity and may give you what you want when young.
i find corn distillates sweet, actually most distillates a bit sweet if they are done right (imho)
aging on oak is definitely going to sweeten it up. I had a 100% rye white that had a big flavour, a bit bitter on the finish. put some wood in it at 50% and it went really spicy. so much so, i filled a barrel with the pre-oaked stuff and stuffed some extra cubes in the barrel upped the proof to 62% and after just about 10 days it has turned really sweet. (new barrel)
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Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
I'd guess that cooking your corn at 190 for a period is what results in the sweetness you getting. If you think its a problem (I prefer that in a bourbon) you can still get good starch conversion at 170 - 180F, just hold it a little longer, to let the enzymes work. The taste will be a little dryer, and it will work out to have a 'thinner' mouth feel than the high temperature mashes, but it is good. Also, I used a about a 15 to 20% mix of hard grain (white winter wheat) to accent that sweetness for some of the bourbons, you might like that if you like sweeter bourbons.
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Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
Corn mash/distillate (at least with my taste buds) is always slightly sweet. As a result I can always recognize the signature flavor of bourbon and most every liquor with a significant corn percentage of the grain bill. Of course ageing in toasted/charred wood does add sugars and other flavors. Outside of 'burping' I don't think sugar per se makes it from the boiler to the distillate (sugars have relatively too high a molecular weight/boiling point) so I presume the sweetness is due to other lighter weight volatile compounds - aldehydes and various alcohols.
- still_stirrin
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Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
Totally agree with this...corn tastes sweet and with the vanilla and caramel flavors added in oak...yumm. And rye will indeed add a "sharp sourdough" flavor to the spirit (intensity dependent on percentage of rye in the grain bill). It can be "peppery" or "slightly bitter" tasting.HDNB wrote:...i find corn distillates sweet, actually most distillates a bit sweet if they are done right (imho)...aging on oak is definitely going to sweeten it up...I had a 100% rye white that had a big flavour...
+1. Yet more corroboration of noticeable character in bourbon recipes. I like the addition of oats to a bourbon as well, because it "softens the sharp edges" otherwise noted in the flavor, especially if you use rye malt in your grain bill. All the flavors fit well together...seamusm53 wrote:...Corn mash/distillate (at least with my taste buds) is always slightly sweet. As a result I can always recognize the signature flavor of bourbon and most every liquor with a significant corn percentage of the grain bill. Of course ageing in toasted/charred wood does add sugars and other flavors...
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Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
Thanks so much for your advice, I truly appreciate it. I guess I am on par for what I am making and I have a much deeper insight now.
The addition of oats to my recipe sound like its something to try. What percentage would work well.
I must admit, when asked for OG and FG, after many batches I know I will get an OG of around 1.060 and a a complete fermentation from just knowing if I do this amount of grain at this temperature in this much water a certain amount of time and when opening the fermenter after the airlock stops if it looks right, smells right and tastes right it is done. sure not saying this is the way to do it, heck no, but it has been so repeatable for me that I have become a little complacent.
Im sure Popcorn Sutton would not know what a hydrometer looked like.
I do have a new toy I have used on my last brewday, a Blue moon clone. Its called the TILT hydrometer. It floates in the wort and gives you a hydrometer and temperature reading, bluetoothed to a tablet or phone. You can see the day to day progress. Really cool, so now My complacent attitude is solved.
Shine on
The addition of oats to my recipe sound like its something to try. What percentage would work well.
I must admit, when asked for OG and FG, after many batches I know I will get an OG of around 1.060 and a a complete fermentation from just knowing if I do this amount of grain at this temperature in this much water a certain amount of time and when opening the fermenter after the airlock stops if it looks right, smells right and tastes right it is done. sure not saying this is the way to do it, heck no, but it has been so repeatable for me that I have become a little complacent.
Im sure Popcorn Sutton would not know what a hydrometer looked like.
I do have a new toy I have used on my last brewday, a Blue moon clone. Its called the TILT hydrometer. It floates in the wort and gives you a hydrometer and temperature reading, bluetoothed to a tablet or phone. You can see the day to day progress. Really cool, so now My complacent attitude is solved.
Shine on
Last edited by Full_moon on Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- nerdybrewer
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Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
Sounds like a gadget I'd enjoy - where did you get it?Full_moon wrote:Thanks so much for your advice, I truly appreciate it. I guess I am on par for what I am making and I have a much deeper insight now.
The addition of oats to my recipe sound like its something to try. What percentage would work well.
I must admit, when asked for OG and FG, after many batches I know I will get an OG of around 1.060 and a a complete fermentation from just knowing if I do this amount of grain at this temperature in this much water a certain amount of time and when opening the fermenter after the airlock stops if it looks right, smells right and tastes right it is done. sure not saying this is the way to do it, heck no, but it has been so repeatable for me that I have become a little complacent.
Im sure Popcorn Sutton would not know what a hydrometer looked like.
I do have a new toy I have used on my last brewday, a Blue moon clone. Its called the TILT hydrometer. It floates in the wort and gives you a hydrometer and temperature reading, bluetoothed to a tablet or phone. Really cool, so now My complacent attitude is solved.
Shine on
Cranky's spoonfeeding:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52975
Time and Oak will sort it out.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52975
Time and Oak will sort it out.
Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
https://tilthydrometer.com/?gclid=Cj0KE ... Amx58P8HAQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
$120.00 plus ship. You need, android 4.4 or better or Iphone or Ipad, forget what version but its all on their website.
$120.00 plus ship. You need, android 4.4 or better or Iphone or Ipad, forget what version but its all on their website.
- der wo
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Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
My hydrometer also floates in the wort. And because the bucket is transparent I can see the measurement when I want. And the temperature correction? Well, at least at the end of the fermentation the temp of the wash is the same like the temp of the place where it stands. And generally, what will you do, when the FG turns out bad? You cannot do anything. So why not simply wait and only measure directly before stripping? A 120$ electronic bluetooth hydrometer is wasted money.Full_moon wrote:Its called the TILT hydrometer. It floates in the wort and gives you a hydrometer and temperature reading, bluetoothed to a tablet or phone.
To the original question:
I also think a high FG leads to a sweeter taste. Good or bad it's up to you. And generally corn gives an illusion of sweetness you don't have with barley, wheat or rye. Did you use only the high temp alpha amylase or also glucoamylase? If you want to reduce the sugar taste either use glucoamylase or add the malt at a lower temp, rest much longer, stir it often and insulate everything well.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
- cuginosgrizzo
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Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
Please let me disagree, sir.der wo wrote: So why not simply wait and only measure directly before stripping? A 120$ electronic bluetooth hydrometer is wasted money.
I find that it has great value to measure the SG of the worth without opening the bucket. I find it has greater value to monitor it from my own cell, even when I am at work. And I can see when it is done even it I am away from home, so I can come back an run it (or bottle it if it is beer). And I can keep and historical detailed track record of all my ferments.
I am one that can monitor the temperature of all the rooms in the hous and set the heating elements in each room from the cell, wherever I am. Or I can drive my TV, Home Cinema, Sourround Ampli, burglar alarm or A/C from said cell phone from anywhere. Maybe these are not vital features but they are cool and worth what I spent for them!
My car has tire pressure sensors, burnout light sensors...are those wasted money also, since you can measure it yourself or check the lights?
c'mon der wo, get a life
Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
cuginosgrizzo wrote: I find it has greater value to monitor it from my own cell, even when I am at work. And I can see when it is done even it I am away from home, so I can come back an run it (or bottle it if it is beer).
Not knocking the product or the value you get from it. Just to mention that it is bluetooth so unless you're work office is at home I doubt that you are getting any readings from it away from your house.
Last edited by piperdave on Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
If you can't be a good example, at least be a terrible warning
- der wo
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Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
cuginosgrizzo wrote:Please let me disagree, sir. Hmmm, an Italian for dinner, yummy!der wo wrote: So why not simply wait and only measure directly before stripping? A 120$ electronic bluetooth hydrometer is wasted money.
I find that it has great value to measure the SG of the worth without opening the bucket. I don't have to open it too. But why measure during the fermentation? Wait until it stops fermenting. Then you will have to run it regardless what the FG is. I find it has greater value to monitor it from my own cell, even when I am at work. And I can see when it is done even it I am away from home, so I can come back an run it (or bottle it if it is beer). So you will book an earlier flight, when the ferment is done? Or try to arrive home from work one hour earlier? And I can keep and historical detailed track record of all my ferments. Why do you want records except the OG and the FG?
I am one that can monitor the temperature of all the rooms in the hous and set the heating elements in each room from the cell, wherever I am. Or I can drive my TV, Home Cinema, Sourround Ampli, burglar alarm or A/C from said cell phone from anywhere. Maybe these are not vital features but they are cool and worth what I spent for them!
My car has tire pressure sensors, burnout light sensors...are those wasted money also, since you can measure it yourself or check the lights? Not all sensors and automation is wasted money. Here if any an airlock sensor would be more useful.
c'mon der wo, get a life
Ok, everyone gets a different life. Take my post as arguments against, but of course everyone is allowed to see it otherwise.
That was yummy...
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
Not knocking the product or the value you get from it. Just to mention that it is bluetooth so unless you're work office is at home I doubt that you are getting any readings from it away from your house. quote
The Tilt talks to you phone/tablet via Bluetooth, the tablet/phone talks to the app/cloud and you can see the readings hour by hour,day by day, in a nice,well done graph.
The Tilt talks to you phone/tablet via Bluetooth, the tablet/phone talks to the app/cloud and you can see the readings hour by hour,day by day, in a nice,well done graph.
Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
At some point the tablet/phone has to be in bluetooth range. If the phone/tablet is in your pocket and you are 20 miles from home what does the bluetooth do?
From the TILT Website:
***********************************************************
Hello fellow brewers! Here's how I (Noah) post my specific gravity and temperature reading from the Brewometer to my Google Sheets.
The Brewometer iOS and Android app lets you post your data to the cloud. You will need two things to constantly send data to the cloud:
1. A personal google/gmail account (we do not manage cloud data).
2. A dedicated smartphone or tablet to leave plugged in/charging near your fermenter.
***********************************************************
Just sayin'.
EDIT:This is straying from the original topic. Sorry.
From the TILT Website:
***********************************************************
Hello fellow brewers! Here's how I (Noah) post my specific gravity and temperature reading from the Brewometer to my Google Sheets.
The Brewometer iOS and Android app lets you post your data to the cloud. You will need two things to constantly send data to the cloud:
1. A personal google/gmail account (we do not manage cloud data).
2. A dedicated smartphone or tablet to leave plugged in/charging near your fermenter.
***********************************************************
Just sayin'.
EDIT:This is straying from the original topic. Sorry.
If you can't be a good example, at least be a terrible warning
Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
piperdave wrote:At some point the tablet/phone has to be in bluetooth range. If the phone/tablet is in your pocket and you are 20 miles from home what does the bluetooth do?
From the TILT Website:
***********************************************************
Hello fellow brewers! Here's how I (Noah) post my specific gravity and temperature reading from the Brewometer to my Google Sheets.
The Brewometer iOS and Android app lets you post your data to the cloud. You will need two things to constantly send data to the cloud:
1. A personal google/gmail account (we do not manage cloud data).
2. A dedicated smartphone or tablet to leave plugged in/charging near your fermenter.
***********************************************************
Just sayin'.
EDIT:This is straying from the original topic. Sorry.
Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
Do you not get CO2 bubbles adhering to the hydrometer and giving a lower SG than actual? With fast active ferments notice I get the SG decreasing if I wait too long, got to stir to dislodge the bubbles and take the reading as soon as it stops bobbing.der wo wrote:My hydrometer also floates in the wort. And because the bucket is transparent I can see the measurement when I want. And the temperature correction? Well, at least at the end of the fermentation the temp of the wash is the same like the temp of the place where it stands. And generally, what will you do, when the FG turns out bad? You cannot do anything. So why not simply wait and only measure directly before stripping? A 120$ electronic bluetooth hydrometer is wasted money.Full_moon wrote:Its called the TILT hydrometer. It floates in the wort and gives you a hydrometer and temperature reading, bluetoothed to a tablet or phone.
To the original question:
I also think a high FG leads to a sweeter taste. Good or bad it's up to you. And generally corn gives an illusion of sweetness you don't have with barley, wheat or rye. Did you use only the high temp alpha amylase or also glucoamylase? If you want to reduce the sugar taste either use glucoamylase or add the malt at a lower temp, rest much longer, stir it often and insulate everything well.
You can get an aquarium thermometer with an adjustable suction cup for very cheap the can be stuck to the inner wall with the scale showing from the outside if you want to do temperature correction.
Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
I'd be tempted to nuke (microwave) anything that tastes too sweet.
- der wo
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Re: slight sugar taste in bourban
The SG measurement is only interesting at the beginning and at the end of the fermentation. During the very active stage perhaps the CO² would influence the measurement.johnnyv wrote:Do you not get CO2 bubbles adhering to the hydrometer and giving a lower SG than actual? With fast active ferments notice I get the SG decreasing if I wait too long, got to stir to dislodge the bubbles and take the reading as soon as it stops bobbing.der wo wrote:My hydrometer also floates in the wort. And because the bucket is transparent I can see the measurement when I want. And the temperature correction? Well, at least at the end of the fermentation the temp of the wash is the same like the temp of the place where it stands. And generally, what will you do, when the FG turns out bad? You cannot do anything. So why not simply wait and only measure directly before stripping? A 120$ electronic bluetooth hydrometer is wasted money.Full_moon wrote:Its called the TILT hydrometer. It floates in the wort and gives you a hydrometer and temperature reading, bluetoothed to a tablet or phone.
To the original question:
I also think a high FG leads to a sweeter taste. Good or bad it's up to you. And generally corn gives an illusion of sweetness you don't have with barley, wheat or rye. Did you use only the high temp alpha amylase or also glucoamylase? If you want to reduce the sugar taste either use glucoamylase or add the malt at a lower temp, rest much longer, stir it often and insulate everything well.
You can get an aquarium thermometer with an adjustable suction cup for very cheap the can be stuck to the inner wall with the scale showing from the outside if you want to do temperature correction.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg