EC 1118 versus Safale US-05

[Mr_Beer]

Primary objective is to have good tasting whiskey/bourbon with grain.

The advice is many areas of this forum are to not use ‘any old’ yeast but instead use US-05 instead. Longer lag time, more constrained mash OG but according to many it will taste better.

No matter where I shop, a packet of US-05 is a $3+ and three packets per 15 gallon fermenter is not inexpensive. In fact the yeast cost more than the corn and wheat for a recent wheated bourbon.

A recent winemaking experiment led me to EC-1118 --- used a lot in mead and wine making.

One thread here suggested 50/50 – EC-118 and distillers yeast.

Does anyone have an opinion or experience in using EC-1118 with grain based mashes?

[MooseMan]

Could you not just keep a yeast community going with your favourite strain?

When I was full into beer making I had a big colony of both Notty and US-05 going, and I'd just pull some from the main bed, feed it and grow it overnight before pitching on brew day.

[shadylane]

Mixing other yeast with EC-1118 might be problematic, because 1118 has a competitive killer factor.

[shadylane]

No matter where I shop, a packet of US-05 is a $3+ and three packets per 15 gallon fermenter is not inexpensive.

Start a couple gallons with one packet.
The next day, when the yeast is going crazy, pitch the bucket into the fermenter.

[acfixer69]

Mixing other yeast with EC-1118 might be problematic, because 1118 has a competitive killer factor.

Absolutely that's why we try it to fix stuck fermentation.

[shadylane]

Does anyone have an opinion or experience in using EC-1118 with grain based mashes?

I've used 1118 for white whiskey.
It's a very forgiving yeast with high attenuation and low esters that can hide grain and malt flavor.
Long story short, even if the conditions aren't perfect, it still eats everything fermentable and pisses clean alcohol.

[Twisted Brick]

I like to make a starter by hydrating 4gms (1/3 of a packet) of US-05 and add it to a half-gallon of mashed/squeezed/sanitized 'wort'. 36hrs later the starter is in full swing and is ready to be pitched. My stovetop starters always mirror my main mash bill and get right to work in the wash very quickly after pitching.

[IAmPistolPete]

IMO EC-1118 will make for a boring, though adequate whiskey compared to US-05. In fact I prefer bakers yeast to the 1118 for grains. It will also most definitely outduel the US-05 in a split pitch. I have a recycling starter of US-05 for my whiskeys and ciders and keep it in the fridge until mash day. As I'm boiling I pull out of a pint mason jar about a martini's worth [or two, depending on ferment size] of shaken trub into a bowl with a pinch of sugar & some water to stimulate it as it acclimates to room temp. By the time the mash is ready for pitch , so is the bowl. After mash in take a few oz of the mash & replace what was removed in the mason jar in the fridge. I start over maybe every 6 months or so.

[Saltbush Bill]

Plain and simple EC 1118 is just the wrong yeast for making a Whisky.

[Mr_Beer]

Thanks to everyone who responded.

My notion is obviously considered a bad idea -- Saltbush Bill said it very directly

wrong yeast for making a Whiskey

I appreciate everyone taking the time to clarify for me.

I do not make starters and do not have the requisite refrigeration equipment for storage if I harvest the yeast. That said, there were many suggestions for starters with small portions of the mash, waiting a reasonable time and then pitching the result. I have always been nervous about the unpitched mash getting an infection waiting for the starter to mature.

Possibly I will reconsider.

[Steve Broady]

I do not make starters -- do not have the requisite refrigeration equipment at this time. Possibly I will reconsider.

I could be wrong, and if so I hope someone corrects me, but I don’t think you need refrigeration for a starter. Just start a small batch, basically. Use wort, or sugar water, as you like. Then pitch that into the larger batch once it’s nice and healthy and active.

Partly for the cost, and partly just to see if I could do it, I’ve been keeping a batch of S-04 going for close to a year now, from a single packet. I made a starter for the first batch, and for each subsequent batch I just add the reserved settled yeast from the previous one. So far, so good. I have no idea if it’s still the same as it started out (probably not), but that’s okay. It’s now my house whiskey yeast.

[Mr_Beer]

From Mr. Broady

I just add the reserved settled yeast from the previous one.

How do you store you 'stash' of yeast from one batch to the next? Keeping it going for almost a year is an interesting idea but the storage seems like it would require refrigeration.

[bilgriss]

It's relatively easy to take a pint of slurry and stick it in the fridge.

If you mean you have "no" refrigeration available whatsoever, then your time window is slightly more limited. Yeast essentially eats itself and starts to decay post-fermentation at higher temperatures. But you still have some significant time to start another batch even then, or create another starter and let it ramp back up. It's pretty forgiving. There's a higher chance of mutation at that point, and as Broady says, it's probably not the same yeast that you started with, but it might be better, who knows?

[Mr_Beer]

Thanks to bilgriss for his comment and discussion of yeast survival.

As my name indicates I am from Arkansas. Contrary to popular notions in most of America, we do have indoor plumbing, do not marry our cousins and have refrigeration.

That said, as many members will attest to, there are occasional bright lines between spouses that should not be crossed -- space and storage of 'foreign' material in the refrigerator is one of those in our household.

The notion of new starters for each batch seemed reasonable; I will just have to modify my process.

[Steve Broady]

How do you store you 'stash' of yeast from one batch to the next? Keeping it going for almost a year is an interesting idea but the storage seems like it would require refrigeration.

Simple. Whenever I finished settling one batch and ran it through the still, I would start another one.

I have not tried it, but I understand that it a possible to dry trash for long term storage as well.

[Twisted Brick]

I have been asked to outline my process for making a starter. First off, I am not an expert. My method is but one of many, which are well documented and can be found on the internet and homebrew sites. For consistency and peace of mind, I feel making a starter is well worth the little bit of extra work involved.

I buy individual packets of yeast and follow these re-hydration directions. I keep my packets in tupperware in the drawer of a spare fridge and have stayed viable for a year or more.

I usually make up a gallon of starter on the stovetop by mashing 2lbs of grains in a gallon of water. I like to mirror the starter grain bill of whatever main grain bill I'm mashing. This way the yeast quickly assimilates into my newly converted mash with no stress. I use enzymes for both raw (corn, rye) grain as well as all-malt starters. Once the stovetop mash is converted and confirmed with iodine, I squeeze it to remove the grains. The wort is returned to the stovetop where I add water to end up with a FG of 130-140. Why? Yeasts do not have the ability to discriminate the mediums they are pitched into and will absorb whatever they land in. Yeast already have very fragile cell walls which when pitched into higher gravities rupture and die. Reportedly up to 50% of the yeast.

The thinned wort is then brought to 170F (not boiled) to sterilize. Half of this volume gets poured into hot sterilized quart jars and kept in the fridge for the next mash. The other half is force-cooled and added to a sterilized gallon wine jug, aerated and pitched with re-hydrated yeast.

During my early brewing days I tried re-using spent yeast from a carboy but once, after a few generations got a nasty infection. I also learned that yeast mutate over time so stopped doing that. Following the process above I have never had a non-viable starter. I like the ability to convert different grain bills on my stovetop and monitor my brewhouse efficiency as well as observe the DP of my home-malted grains. I can say that home-malting can certainly produce high DP levels that match commercial malt.

There are more elaborate starter regimes but this is what I use. One piece of advice is to not use sugar to rehydrate your yeast. I understand that once sugar (corn or table) is eaten, yeast lose their ability to consume maltose and is strongly advised to be avoided.

[Mr_Beer]

Thanks you Twisted Brick for your fulsome explanation of your process.

For example, I did not understand you make up a ‘parallel’ wort and then fiddle with it to lower the OG for use as a starter. I would never have envisioned that.

The other fact is the admonishment to avoid sugar – great advice and I certainly did not understand that fact. Use of the wort should avoid the need for any additions.

For convenience would you consider it acceptable to skim/retain a gallon of mash as it is cooling and then process it as you suggested.

[Twisted Brick]

For convenience would you consider it acceptable to skim/retain a gallon of mash as it is cooling and then process it as you suggested.

Yes, but you really want your starter fully active by the time the mash cools, which requires starting it a day or two ahead of time.

[Jimthebrewer]

If you want a strong fermenter, that’s going to give a lot of bold flavour for a “highland” whisky, lots of big dried fruit and grain, try BE-256. Will easily get to 12%. That said you could also try adding a proportion of coloured malt, chocolate, Biscuit or Munich. I’ve had some very interesting new make that have used coloured malts to carry flavour.

[Renhoekk]

EC 1118 and US-05 work well for making a neutral spirit. They have a high alcohol tolerance (~15%) and ferment relatively cleanly. Pretty much the opposite of what you’re looking for in a whisky yeast, where clean = boring