Developing A recipe and need some help.

[lurch chaos]

Hey all,

I have been a craft brewer and mead maker for quite some time, What has be stumped is with distilling how high apv should my Wash be?

I have 10 lbs of blackberry puree and 5 lbs of honey.

in a 5 gal pot.

The blackberry has a brix of 6.5 to 8.0 and honey is 70 to 88..

my ABV calculator on the Got Mead site tells me that i should be able to get to a initial Wart SG value for a 4.5 gallon to be 1.108 with a finishing ABV of 14.37%.

Now I'm pitching Lalvin K1-V1116 Wine Yeast which has alcohol tolerance of18% and using Fermaid O which should dry it almost out. May be get ABV to 16 if I'm lucky.

Am I shooting to high for a blackberry brandy? Or should i wait till the Lavin finishes and drop a 1 or 2 lbs of honey and re pitch with White labs WLP099 - Super High Gravity Ale. That should dry it all the way as it can handle up to 25%.

Here is to a nice jar of Shine!

[NZChris]

You'll have a hard time making a nice jar of Shine while you are aiming for those high abvs, as you'll get off flavors from the stressed yeast. If you want a bigger yield, get a bigger fermenter and aim for OGs closer to 1.060-1.070.

[Scratm3]

Hi yield sugar washes with turbo yeast will get you a hi volume of alcohol but will need to be filtered a lot to make the taste better. Cheaper easier low volume washes using bread yeast will get you a 6% by volume but will take a lot of product to get you a specified amount. You got to find somewhere in the middle. Being a beer, mead and wine maker using the 7 gallon fermenters it was easier to lean towards a sugar wash at 20%. Knowing that only 20% of the 6 gallons will be usable. When you do an all grain wash at a 5%. Knowing you’re only going to be getting a bottle from the 6 gallons at around 40%. All depends on your recipe. But it’s that fine tuning that will get you to making a quality product.

[Saltbush Bill]

What has be stumped is with distilling how high apv should my Wash be?

If something that simple has you stumped you probably need to learn to use the forums search function and do a heap of reading.
You'd also probably have more success using a tried and true recipe until you get the hang of distilling.
I'd hate to see you waste all those berrys and that honey.

Hi yield sugar washes with turbo yeast will get you a hi volume of alcohol but will need to be filtered a lot to make the taste better.

Few if any here are going to promote that idea......most here are after quality......not easy fast and quantity.

[IAmPistolPete]

One thing about distillation is that the higher the ABV, especially if you're looking for a flavorful spirit, the less of the original flavors come thru. Do yourself a favor & taste the must as it is fermenting, it will give you an idea of what you have going on. If you are a mead maker then you know how the mead changes over time. Honey has a very delicate character transition in distillation. If the blackberry puree is actually fruit & not a flavored syrup, you will get a bit to come thru as well. I like K1-v1116 for berry fruit wines cuz it tends to be true to the original flavor without getting in the way. If a nice tasty blackberry brandy is what you're after though, try saving some of the original must to add to the final cuts of the spirit to proof it down. It will make it much more recognizable & probs more satisfying. It's gonna seem like small volumes with what you're working with, but as SBB said "It's quality over quantity"

[Yonder]

Gotta agree with PistolPete. As a long time mead maker you’ll get the flavors you want by saving a bit of the mead for backsweetening the final product. Blackberries and boysenberries make a great drink. Finish your distillation and the take a small glass and gently add measured amounts of the wine. When the taste is right, the rest is math.

[shadylane]

You'll have a hard time making a nice jar of Shine while you are aiming for those high abvs, as you'll get off flavors from the stressed yeast. If you want a bigger yield, get a bigger fermenter and aim for OGs closer to 1.060-1.070.

NZ
Also, with an OG in that range the ferment can finish dry with a FG of 1.000 or slightly lower.

[lurch chaos]

Thank you all.

So i guess less is more got that. I will shoot for 12%. totally can get that done.

[higgins]

You'll have a hard time making a nice jar of Shine while you are aiming for those high abvs, as you'll get off flavors from the stressed yeast. If you want a bigger yield, get a bigger fermenter and aim for OGs closer to 1.060-1.070.

Best advice you'll get.

1.060-1.070 will get you around 7.8 to 9.2 % ABV.
12% is too high - it will stress the yeast.

[lurch chaos]

You'll have a hard time making a nice jar of Shine while you are aiming for those high abvs, as you'll get off flavors from the stressed yeast. If you want a bigger yield, get a bigger fermenter and aim for OGs closer to 1.060-1.070.

Best advice you'll get.

1.060-1.070 will get you around 7.8 to 9.2 % ABV.
12% is too high - it will stress the yeast.

the Yeast im using is designed for Wine and Mead Been using it for a while. Had mead batches proof out at 16 in the past with no fusile aftertaste. I was making 20 gallon batches of mead but after the Divorce i had to part with all my equipment. So im starting over with 5 gallon at a time. Sucks rocks but its a start.

[lurch chaos]

One thing about distillation is that the higher the ABV, especially if you're looking for a flavorful spirit, the less of the original flavors come thru. Do yourself a favor & taste the must as it is fermenting, it will give you an idea of what you have going on. If you are a mead maker then you know how the mead changes over time. Honey has a very delicate character transition in distillation. If the blackberry puree is actually fruit & not a flavored syrup, you will get a bit to come thru as well. I like K1-v1116 for berry fruit wines cuz it tends to be true to the original flavor without getting in the way. If a nice tasty blackberry brandy is what you're after though, try saving some of the original must to add to the final cuts of the spirit to proof it down. It will make it much more recognizable & probs more satisfying. It's gonna seem like small volumes with what you're working with, but as SBB said "It's quality over quantity"

Sounds like a good plan thank you. as for the blackberry

https://www.walmart.com/ip/11-Lb-Blackb ... /868467706

I wanted to save a pound of the Blackberry for my thumper for a flavor run.

[Dougmatt]

You'll have a hard time making a nice jar of Shine while you are aiming for those high abvs, as you'll get off flavors from the stressed yeast. If you want a bigger yield, get a bigger fermenter and aim for OGs closer to 1.060-1.070.

Best advice you'll get.

1.060-1.070 will get you around 7.8 to 9.2 % ABV.
12% is too high - it will stress the yeast.

the Yeast im using is designed for Wine and Mead Been using it for a while. Had mead batches proof out at 16 in the past with no fusile aftertaste. I was making 20 gallon batches of mead but after the Divorce i had to part with all my equipment. So im starting over with 5 gallon at a time. Sucks rocks but its a start.

Sorry for your challenges. When it comes to “what’s the best ABV to target”, I think people are interpreting the question too vague. It’s really about the style you are making, the yeast you are using, and how healthy you keep the yeast with your process.

For example bread yeast in a whiskey mash will much different answer than EC-1118 in a wine must.

Specific to your ask, I think you can easily push 12-14% in a wine must / mead using good wine yeasts to drive a nice brandy, but would never do that with a whiskey mash or a rum ferment. I think your 14.37 is going to be fine with your yeast.

16-20% is too high. Try to stay a few % under the tolerance of the wine yeast, allow it to fully finish and you should be fine. I don’t think you need to step feed it either.

[lurch chaos]

Sorry for your challenges. When it comes to “what’s the best ABV to target”, I think people are interpreting the question too vague. It’s really about the style you are making, the yeast you are using, and how healthy you keep the yeast with your process.

For example bread yeast in a whiskey mash will much different answer than EC-1118 in a wine must.

Specific to your ask, I think you can easily push 12-14% in a wine must / mead using good wine yeasts to drive a nice brandy, but would never do that with a whiskey mash or a rum ferment. I think your 14.37 is going to be fine with your yeast.

16-20% is too high. Try to stay a few % under the tolerance of the wine yeast, allow it to fully finish and you should be fine. I don’t think you need to step feed it either.
[/quote]

Thank you for that clarification that makes me happy that I'm not going in to a Taboo place with converting well in this case a is tantamount as a Melomel.

[shadylane]

Hey all,

I have been a craft brewer and mead maker for quite some time, What has be stumped is with distilling how high apv should my Wash be?

Ya don't want beer and mead to finish dry.
The residual sweetness gives flavor and character.
It's just the opposite when fermenting something to distill.
The lower the FG the better.

[NZChris]

You have to be careful about what experience you bring to distilling from your other brewing hobbies and vise versa. Hygiene and target OGs/ABVs are not always interchangeable between protocols.

[hellbilly007]

When distilling, you are concentrating everything from the must/wash/mash. That said, what flavors that may not be detectable when in undistilled form will be upfront and center after distillation, hence why we stay below the threshold of the yeast we use, not stressing it.

Bread yeast can be pushed quite far if nutrients are made available and a step feeding regimen is imposed. That doesn't mean we typically push it though.

[bilgriss]

Lot of good advice here. Also some opinions.

To generalize, your experience with brewing and mead making is very helpful, but you have to unlearn some things as well. With grains, we target lower mash temperatures to eliminate residual sugars. Yeast variety still has some small impact on the final product, but it's more important to focus on the idea of a healthy, unstressed fermentation for that variety. Target a gravity that allows for a clean and complete fermentation, adequate but not excessive nutrients, and a middle temperature range for the yeast. Cleanliness and sanitization aren't that important with respect to the finished product, unless a ferment is going to sit for long periods of time before running, and even then you might get a nice surprise from a complementary bacteria.

[jonnys_spirit]

8-10%abv fermented dry is the goldilocks zone if you're stillin. Also recommend following a double distillation protocol. First run strip until you have close to 0%abv coming out of the PC. About three strips will yield enough 25-30%abv low wines for a spirit run. Collect your spirit run in about 24 numbered jars then make your cuts.

I came from a wine and mead background too

As recommended by others, try a few tried and true recipes to get familiar with the process and everything

Cheers!
-jonny

[Dougmatt]

8-10%abv fermented dry is the goldilocks zone if you're stillin.

Cheers!
-jonny

Jonny,

Totally respect your comments and have found a lot of value in them over the years, but I’m not sure that’s unniversally true especially for brandy made from wine (or fruit mead distillations) when using wine yeast.

Many of the best brandies in the world are distilled from wine above 10%….. cognac is an exception at average of 9% (law is 7-12) but I am not a fan of ugni blanc or cognac so who knows.

I ferment my wine and distill it around 12-14% - whatever the fruit yeilds with no issues and a good tasting brandy. Maybe I generate more heads or tails??? But no way to measure that and my yield is what I expect.

Edit to add: I don’t think I can get my base wine abv down to 8-10% unless I harvest early in which case sugar and acid would be out of balance and cause a bunch more issues…..

[Dougmatt]

8-10%abv fermented dry is the goldilocks zone if you're stillin.

Cheers!
-jonny

Jonny,

Totally respect your comments and have found a lot of value in them over the years, but I’m not sure that’s unniversally true especially for brandy made from wine (or fruit mead distillations) when using wine yeast.

Many of the best brandies in the world are distilled from wine above 10%….. cognac is an exception at average of 9% (law is 7-12) but I am not a fan of ugni blanc or cognac so who knows.

I ferment my wine and distill it around 12-14% - whatever the fruit yeilds with no issues and a good tasting brandy. Maybe I generate more heads or tails??? But no way to measure that and my yield is what I expect.

Edit to add: I don’t think I can get my base wine abv down to 8-10% unless I harvest early in which case sugar and acid would be out of balance and cause a bunch more issues…..

This is an interesting take from an old Odin post:

“• Go for a lower ABV wine rather than a high ABV wine: taste concentration of a 10% wine to a 40% brandy is “times 4″, where taste concentration of a 13% wine to a 40% brandy is only “times 3″;”

He recommends ~11% young wine when buying it in this easy Brandy thread: viewtopic.php?t=56164

So to him it’s less about fermentation off flavor ABV issues and more about flavor concentration at final ABV….

D

[jonnys_spirit]

8-10%abv fermented dry is the goldilocks zone if you're stillin.

Cheers!
-jonny

Jonny,

Totally respect your comments and have found a lot of value in them over the years, but I’m not sure that’s unniversally true especially for brandy made from wine (or fruit mead distillations) when using wine yeast.

Many of the best brandies in the world are distilled from wine above 10%….. cognac is an exception at average of 9% (law is 7-12) but I am not a fan of ugni blanc or cognac so who knows.

I ferment my wine and distill it around 12-14% - whatever the fruit yeilds with no issues and a good tasting brandy. Maybe I generate more heads or tails??? But no way to measure that and my yield is what I expect.

Edit to add: I don’t think I can get my base wine abv down to 8-10% unless I harvest early in which case sugar and acid would be out of balance and cause a bunch more issues…..

This is an interesting take from an old Odin post:

“• Go for a lower ABV wine rather than a high ABV wine: taste concentration of a 10% wine to a 40% brandy is “times 4″, where taste concentration of a 13% wine to a 40% brandy is only “times 3″;”

He recommends ~11% young wine when buying it in this easy Brandy thread: viewtopic.php?t=56164

So to him it’s less about fermentation off flavor ABV issues and more about flavor concentration at final ABV….

D

Good point @Dougmatt - You're right about finding lower ABV wines - That's going to be a little hard to do and I've certainly distilled wines that didn't make it into bottles in the 12-14%abv range without issue

If you're going for a brandy you could add acidulated water to bring the abv potential down a bit and that may even be helpful? The wine environment is typically more acidic (in the 3.2pH range for whites and 3.8pH range for reds) and higher abv. I've got to believe that this environment stresses the yeasties more than a bit higher pH and lower abv would. One thing with some wine yeasts is to be careful of nutrient needs or they may tend to produce more H2S.. I also feel like in general that we cut brandies more towards the heads side which is also interesting. I might suggest that fermenting and distilling wine for brandy are more the exception than the rule.

Meads for distilling into honey shine are a lower abv when I ferment them because I have a choice I have kept them in the 1.070 range with adequate nutrients and had good results. I've also made them higher abv for straight mead and they tend to take quite some time to age... I have not yet made a fortified mead but have that on my list

For the distillers mead I would also suggest a lower abv in the 1.070 range and using one of the popular TOSNA calcs to determine nutrient schedule and amounts along with either a D47 or K1-V1116. I'm personally not an EC1118 fan but I do keep some in the fridge for potential stuck ferments..


Cheers!
-j

[lurch chaos]

First off I want to say thank you and that's a lot of different opinions.

I guess it comes down to 2 different camps. The low is better and the Its ok to go kind of high.

After reading all the differing opinions i will try to split the middle of each camps as i see the reasons for each view.

So I will let the Mash/Must go to almost end of life for the EC1118 if it hits 13 to 14 I will stop it there. As the stoppage is kind of counterintuitive to my Mead mind. So for the initial stripping run will do it sans thumper. Toss my heads and collect all the rest . I can then re run the rest and use the thumper with a reserve 1/4 gallon of the must and 1 lb of blackberry (its a tiny thumper). Lets see what I can come up with..

Once again thank you for all the responses!