Poll: Remove foreshots, or just drink them

Bastardo · Post by **Bastardo** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:46 pm

ok I remove them because of everything I have read here... but I have to tell ya, my father has been distilling wine for years, when I told him about removing the foreshots he laughed at me. He grew up in a small village in Italy, there were stills everywhere, and no body ever removed any foreshots. THey just distill and drink. for many years... no one ever went blind according to him.... the tradition goes back hundreds of years. apparantly...

punkin · Post by **punkin** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:13 am

Bastardo wrote:ok I remove them because of everything I have read here... but I have to tell ya, my father has been distilling wine for years, when I told him about removing the foreshots he laughed at me. He grew up in a small village in Italy, there were stills everywhere, and no body ever removed any foreshots. THey just distill and drink. for many years... no one ever went blind according to him.... the tradition goes back hundreds of years. apparantly...

Tastes like shit, though.
Although i gotta say it's nice enough when you don't know any better. Once you get a good understanding of whats going on, you don't drink the first litre of a 30 litre wash, let alone 100ml.

Cause it tastes like shit.

CoopsOz · Post by **CoopsOz** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:13 am

Regardless of health concerns, I drink and smoke far more than I should.....the fores and heads just taste plain bad, I can't believe anyone would consider drinking the shit. Even when blended in with the whole run, it spoils all your good likker.

Edit - you beat me Punkin

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:18 am

I toss more than necessary (about 50 ml. from a 15 liter wash of 10-12%) and continue to toss that amount from every run, whether it's a second run or a third.

I agree that that's proabably overkill, but it's better to be safe than sorry, especially when it's such a small amount

BTW, drinking the same amount of methanol (comparing a bottle of wine and several shots of distillate) is not the same. First, the concentration is different. Second, ingestion time (and thus filtering through the liver and kidneys) is different, thus effects on body tissue and the system are qualitatively different.

In any case, the only responsible stance here is that newcomers should be made aware that it is the policy of the more experienced distillers on this forum to THROW OUT THE FORESHOTS. Simple as that. Again, better to be cautious than make a scientific point.

Aidas

pothead · Post by **pothead** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:16 am

pintoshine wrote:First of all your poll is a little tainted in the fact of the way you askedthe question. Of course we toss the foreshots, but not because of the methanol. It is because they taste and smell bad just like most of the heads.
You have not given any conclusive evedence that the foreshots has any more methanol than the rest of the run.
I gave evidence of studies that show charted and GC data that showed the methanol is in the whole run from a very nicely built pot still at the same ratio to as the ethanol.
This is from http://homedistiller.org/Fruit%20brandy.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow which is what the conversation got started from in the first place.
The collection points are heads hearts and tails according to the reading.
Your turn show us that there is more methanol in the foreshots.
If you can't then it is just your opinion isn't it?

WHO'S SHINE WAS USED IN THAT STUDY?
Not everyone runs the same stuff, uses the same yeast, ferments at the same temperatures, uses the same amount of heat to distill with, etc,etc,etc,etc.....There are WAY more factors involved.
The Point...........it is very,very,very bad to tell a newbie that it is ok to keep your foreshots mixed in you product, AND that "drinking the first shot won't kill ya". Not only is it bad for the site, it is bad for all the noobs, and for your own credibility.... And I am sure that the majority of the people here will agree, So....
Drop it already.

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:38 am

No I am not going to drop it because you are propagating a myth that you are avoiding the methanol by tossing the foreshots, when all I am trying to to do is warn all the noob that all the distilled spirits contains some methanol and it is not being eliminated by tossing the foreshots.
The point is that the only way to avoid the methanol is to not drink distilled spirits, fruit juices or anything that contains aspertame.

I don't give a crap what you think about it, you are wrong, and possibly setting some noob up for a disaster leading them to believe that they are eliminating all the methanol by tossing the foreshots. What you are saying will lead them to believe that they could grab some denatured alcohol and toss out the methanol with the foreshots which is proven to not be true.
I am at least giving them the straight story and not giving them false expectations or mis-information. I'm done on this subject. I will continue to tell them the truth that they will be ingesting methanol with all parts of the spirits.

pothead · Post by **pothead** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:10 am

pintoshine wrote:No I am not going to drop it because you are propagating a myth that you are avoiding the methanol by tossing the foreshots, when all I am trying to to do is warn all the noob that all the distilled spirits contains some methanol and it is not being eliminated by tossing the foreshots.
The point is that the only way to avoid the methanol is to not drink distilled spirits, fruit juices or anything that contains aspertame.

I don't give a crap what you think about it, you are wrong, and possibly setting some noob up for a disaster leading them to believe that they are eliminating all the methanol by tossing the foreshots. What you are saying will lead them to believe that they could grab some denatured alcohol and toss out the methanol with the foreshots which is proven to not be true.
I am at least giving them the straight story and not giving them false expectations or mis-information. I'm done on this subject. I will continue to tell them the truth that they will be ingesting methanol with all parts of the spirits.

calm down,buddy.
yes they will be consuming methanol....but WAY less if they toss the foreshots.
I see that you will not let this go....So, I will be the bigger man here, and I will drop it.

grainhopper · Post by **grainhopper** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:45 pm

I over cut my fores.
But if I buy a litre bottle of zinfindel from winn dixe. I distill the crap and cut as much methanol as possible then drink it. I see no difference than drinking the whole bottle of wine as well.
and it would not be any different if I ran it from my still or another still.

But iwould not recommend that we drink a shot of mrthanol.

THey just distill and drink.

This wouldnt be any different situation than drinking the whole bottle of wine.

Post by **shadylane** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:22 am

It is obvious from the graft supplied by pintoshine that methanol is present in all the run. The biggest danger is someone drinking the low temp distillate that comes off first "forshots" and getting a big dose of methanol. I'm sure we all agree, drinking staight foreshots can be deadly.

Post by **manu de hanoi** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:15 am

The foreshots are the most perfumed alcohol (i do rhum). But they also smell like ether and acetone.

I think that in order to produce something really good, we should keep the foreshots, and redistill them and try to separate the perfumed components from the nasty ones.

Alchemist · Post by **Alchemist** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:11 pm

Pintoshine,

I don't really doubt what you say, that some methanol stays in the heart cut, but upon looking over that study, I would have to say it doesn't convince me. I actually run that exact type of equipment that they used and I don't care for the trace data they present. The "valid" methanol peak areas are garbagely small. Noise in my professional opinion. Most of that methanol data strikes me as lab contamination. And did you notice some of the ethanol data was WELL over 100%. WTF? I can grant a few percentage points for basic variation, but not 20 and 30 %. If that is off, what else is off?

Not as a challenge to you, but for some data that I would trust, I would love to run some foreshots, heart cuts and tail on my instrumentation as see what it actually shows. Care to touch base with me via PM to set up some actual analysis? I would happily post results.

The Chemist · Post by **The Chemist** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:50 am

Actually, those look pretty representative for direct injection with FID. I'd like to see the baseline better, though, you can't really see the shape of the peaks...with the PDF format, you just can't make out a whole lot. When I first started working with booze, we used FID, but I pushed to switch to MS years ago!! Couldn't be happier...

The thing I would caution is that this is brandy data. Brandy and tequila naturally have high methanol levels, and I would be very cautious extrapolating this data to other distillates.

Good luck on the 'hook-up'...it's a very cautious crowd, for obvious reasons. I tried to get a study going a couple of years ago with the grandiose hope of showing that people weren't going to kill themselves by making their own...only had one taker, God rest his soul.

Post by **bronzdragon** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:06 am

Because of what I've read, and generally because the foreshots smell terrible ... I toss em out on the weeds. I'm the type of person that would rather be over carefull and lose a cup of booze, rather then have some off-smelling and potentially dangerous chemicals in my drinks. I do this as a hobby, a few cups here or there is not going to make a difference.

I do keep a liberal amount of my heads though and reprocess them.

I've never really taken a reading on my foreshots ... but my heads usually start out a little higher in alc, then settle into a good percentage when the hearts are ready to start.

My opinion is, better safe then sorry. And as far as traditionally including everything ... I think that we just learn things as we go along and this may be one of those things we've learned in the last 20 years that makes the drink better.

~r~

grainhopper · Post by **grainhopper** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:09 pm

One more time.

Lets say you buy a bottle of cheap ass wine you distill it, and hypothetically you can separate every bit of methanol from the rest of the wine. You could drink all the methanol and it would not kill you, unless the whole bottle of wine would kill you in the first place.

Post by **bronzdragon** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:17 pm

Kill ... no, heck of a hangover, yes.

~r~

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:01 pm

You could drink all the methanol and it would not kill you, unless the whole bottle of wine would kill you in the first place.

I get the feeling that its not quite that simple... Concentrated methanol is going to be much worse on you. No thanks... bad head or dead...

Pints concern that someone might think they can safely distill and drink denatured alcohol is a bit of a stretch. I don't doubt it could happen, but if someone finds this thread and gets that idea then the herd needed some thinning anyway... Drink your fores if you wanna. Not for me... Some people do this to make better 'cleaner' tastier booze... Its not unlike having a homegrown tomato vs a store bought one... Careful cuts are an important part of making good tasty shine...

Post by **blanikdog** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:11 pm

junkyard dawg wrote: ...then the herd needed some thinning anyway...

I love it

One learns a lot in this forum.

blanik

wineo · Post by **wineo** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:16 pm

Drinking forshots is just plain stupid.I dont know if it would kill you or not,but you know its going to give you a hangover.Have you ever ran some forshots into a plastic hydrometer tube?If it can eat that tube,just think what it would do to your liver,and kidneys.
I dont know about everybody else,but the main reason I started distilling was to make clean,hangover free booze.
I think this thread has gone far enough.We dont want to give anyone any bad ideas!

grainhopper · Post by **grainhopper** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:16 pm

Just one more

BUT FIRST IT IS "Drinking forshots is just plain stupid"

I for one am not promoting drinking any methanol.
but
hypo and theroteically your are not concentrating it you are condensing it!
Yes it may be worse, may burn more etc...

Thats like saying turning the bottle of wine into brandy, will get you drunker. it wont.

"Pints concern that someone might think they can safely distill and drink denatured alcohol is a bit of a stretch."

I dont think that Pint said anything about drinking denatured methanol or ethanol of any sorts.

I hope this comes across as discussion and not trying to poke a fight.
I dont think that anyone sensible reading this discussion would drink any methanol, just from what is being said and it is being brung up.

grainhopper · Post by **grainhopper** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:23 pm

blanikdog wrote:
junkyard dawg wrote: ...then the herd needed some thinning anyway...

I love it One learns a lot in this forum.

blanik

LMAO mother natures way of weeding out the dumb ones.

wineo · Post by **wineo** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:25 pm

Its called natural selection!

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:18 pm

Just an observation, that pothead's original post, which was a reply to my question about his alarmist comments, have either been removed or edited.

When he asked me if I was necessary, I was a bit offended. He removed that after I e-mailed him asking what was his problem and his pretty violently worded PM to me was one of the reasons I pursued this topic. Also He removed his comment about how all the methanol was removed with the foreshots because "aren't they lighter?" asked pothead.

Some recent news about service men distilling brake fluid, some teenagers going blind at MIT after believing that Fuel ethanol could be made safe to drink and other stories that have appeared in then news really pissed me off.

First of all, methylated spirits cannot be made safe.
A complete ignorance about Raoult's law of miscible liquids and vapor pressures leads me to believe that this person only knows the superstition and thouroughly believes that all the methanol comes off with the foreshots.

The final thing that pissed me off was the alarmist comment about methanol being poison and that any small amount would kill you, which is definitely not true because fruit juices in particular sometimes exceed the FDA recommendation about the daily intake of methanol.

I am allergic to formic acid which is the end product of methanol metabolism. Fire ants have sent me into Anaphylaxis but yet I have never had a spell due to metabolizing juice or home distilled spirits because of the ethanol protection, which is 1000 time more attracted to the alcohol oxydase than methanol. I simply piss the methanol out. If you do not believe any of this, research it yourself.

But I will not stand by when an out right lie such as "all the methanol goes out with the foreshots" or "methanol is POISON and it will kill you dead even in small amounts" is posted to the new people.

Hell in my early years I wondered "Can I distill methylated spirits and get rid of the methanol with the foreshots" Seemed logical since methylated spirits is used to be cheaper than sugar.

Bullshit scare tactics an out right lies are not conducive to the safety of our hobby no matter how sensible the true outcome might be. At least tell the truth.

Sure I don't like the taste of foreshots no more than anyone else. But I certainly am not afraid of any of the stuff I ferment and distill, including the black moldy stuff that smells like vomit or anything else I make, foreshots or not. Hell the post about horse shit wash has my curiosity up. You guys see horse shit I see nitrogen and potassium just like the mule shit I put on my garden.

Alchemist · Post by **Alchemist** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:40 am

Here here Pintoshine - nice that makes a lot more sense now. And I mean that literally. Blind superstition pisses me off right up there with "I told you so".

Woody_Woodchuck · Post by **Woody_Woodchuck** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:16 am

Pretty heated discussion. I’ll add my nickel if ya don’t mind.

I started in the 70’s, ran 10 gallons sweet corn mash in a copper pot still. Was told to keep it all until it wouldn’t burn on a spoon. Anything left in the pot was something ya didn’t want and out it went onto the garden. Never did keep anything past that point and it pains me to know that all that time I’d been abusing alcohol! Didn’t know anything about foreshots, tails, middlins, nothing but what I was told originally.

After a year or so and dozens of runs I had a recipe and the process down pretty good. I started experimenting with different parts of the runs. I’d pull off quart jars instead of everything into a carboy. The first jar had a bite to it, chalked it up to being much stronger than the others. The last jar had a ton of flavor and wasn’t near as strong or pleasant as the middle jars. You could definitely tell the differences in the jars. Well, spent a few evenings sipping off the different jars. Not getting to the point of stumbling but feeling good. We did notice that the first jar off gave you a bit of a hangover, the other jars not. Not a head thumper but you knew you’d been drinking.

You could smell the difference also, first jar just didn't quite smell as sweet, again I chalked it up to being the strongest part of the run. Anyway, after that I always pulled the ‘first jar’ and mixed the rest together. Had one friend who loved the first jar so it was always his. Maybe just a macho thing because we thought it was the strongest part? Rest of us liked the main batch. Never did try and get it refined further as to how much of the beginning was not to my liking, just pulled the first jar off. Tried keeping different parts of the middle and end separate but I liked when they were mixed.

goose eye · Post by **goose eye** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:37 am

these boys pa always pulled some off maybe a pint to make sure it wont pukein to ck bead an clean worm/condencer an such an added back in next run. thats just the way he done it an the way he was showed. if it was last run he poured it on the ground he didnt no nothin bout no methonol that they no of or didnt say ifin he did. hell mostly thought methonol was from workin trees an such til i got here.

pint how you tratin for viromites if you aint use formic acid

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:08 am

I don't give a crap what you think about it, you are wrong, and possibly setting some noob up for a disaster leading them to believe that they are eliminating all the methanol by tossing the foreshots. What you are saying will lead them to believe that they could grab some denatured alcohol and toss out the methanol with the foreshots which is proven to not be true.

Thats the money quote...

Post by **Uncle Jesse** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:13 am

why would anyone be stupid enough to try to get ethanol from brake fluid or fuel ethanol? are we that desperate to get drunk? it's just so stupidly ridiculous it's hard to fathom.

The Chemist · Post by **The Chemist** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:48 am

grainhopper wrote:One more time.

Lets say you buy a bottle of cheap ass wine you distill it, and hypothetically you can separate every bit of methanol from the rest of the wine. You could drink all the methanol and it would not kill you, unless the whole bottle of wine would kill you in the first place.

That's right. But, again, why would you WANT to? Any whiskey (or other distilled spirit FTM) has lots of really nasty things in it, that will kill you dead if you ingest enough of them. The ethanol will get you first, though. Making your own, you can control at least some of them, methanol being one. If you can lessen your exposure, and still make killer booze, why wouldn't you? The "Oh, it's just a little methanol, it's OK," attitude is not one to be encouraged.

Post by **Uncle Jesse** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:37 am

The Chemist wrote:
grainhopper wrote:One more time.

Lets say you buy a bottle of cheap ass wine you distill it, and hypothetically you can separate every bit of methanol from the rest of the wine. You could drink all the methanol and it would not kill you, unless the whole bottle of wine would kill you in the first place.
That's right. But, again, why would you WANT to? Any whiskey (or other distilled spirit FTM) has lots of really nasty things in it, that will kill you dead if you ingest enough of them. The ethanol will get you first, though. Making your own, you can control at least some of them, methanol being one. If you can lessen your exposure, and still make killer booze, why wouldn't you? The "Oh, it's just a little methanol, it's OK," attitude is not one to be encouraged.

It's true what they say; you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

grainhopper · Post by **grainhopper** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:29 pm

I hope you dont hink I drink methanol or suggest it. I for one do like, I think its Junkyardog, I over kill my cuts.

On my stripping runs I run really slow into the over kill cuts. then run hard and fast.

Then I do a spirit run and do a large heads cut.

Home Distiller

Poll: Remove foreshots, or just drink them

Remove foreshots(and methanol) or just drink them

well

the answer