The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

[welly]

Hey all,

I've just bought a smaller 2.5L bain marie pot to try and build my own BadMo barrel for smaller batches. I'm in the process of sourcing the wood for the barrel head and have a few options. I can get hold of a ex-bourbon barrel head, which I think would be ideal really for aging Scotch, alternatively I can probably source some air dried American white oak.

If I was to go down the second option route, I could get a piece of timber that would be wide enough to fit the 15cm diameter of the 2.5L pot I've got hold of. Is there any reason why when BadMo barrels are made, the heads are made from multiple pieces of wood that have been pressed together? Is it simply because you can't get a single piece of timber wide enough to fit the head or is there another reason for pressing multiple lengths together?

Thanks!

[welly]

Oh, filled my second BadMo barrel today with my single malt whisky. Ended up with around 5.75 litres at 63.5% ABV. Let's see how long I can keep it going before going in for a tasting! (I'll give it 3 weeks) The new make tasted excellent so I think it has a lot of promise.

First barrel (1153) has a rum aging since June so has some time to go yet.

[higgins]

welly,
I think the main reason for using multiple pieces of wood for the heads is that you need to use quarter sawn (QS) wood, and finding an 8 or 9" wide piece of true QS wood is difficult. When you view the end of the board, the grain of QS wood runs perpendicular to the surface (||||||||), or nearly so, whereas non-QS wood grain runs at an angle (///////), or even close to parallel to the surface. The medullary rays, which can conduct liquid, run perpendicular to the grain. So in QS wood the rays run from edge to edge of the board, and in non-QS wood they run at an angle from surface to surface, increasing the probability of leakage thru the face.

Plus the fact that BadMotivator sourced his wood from barrel stave mills, so it is already QS wood around 6-10 cm wide and 1 m long, enough to make 1 head.

I've made 2 'used oak' heads from once-used barrel staves for aging single malts. I cut them to about 10" lengths, and using the inner face against the fence I jointed the edges square. After assembling 3 pieces with dowels and beeswax I run them thru the planer to flatten the outer face before cutting the circle. I do nothing to the inner (charred) face. There is still plenty of thickness left, so if I want 'new oak' heads I'll either plane or scrape the inner face, taking off most of the char, then will re-char them.

I've made 10 of them now - 6 the same size as Badmo's (8L), and 4 half the size (4 L). Before I got the used staves I imitated a used barrel by adding about 150ml of 95% neutral and storing it head down for a month, then adding another 100 ml of water (diluting to about 60%) for another month. I surmised that this process would extract a lot of the 'new oak' character rather quickly and make it more like a 'used oak' barrel.

[welly]

welly,
I think the main reason for using multiple pieces of wood for the heads is that you need to use quarter sawn (QS) wood, and finding...

Thanks higgins! That was really useful. Lot to ingest there and will be having a chat with my mate who's a much better woodworker than I!

[Oldvine Zin]

Oh, filled my second BadMo barrel today with my single malt whisky. Ended up with around 5.75 litres at 63.5% ABV. Let's see how long I can keep it going before going in for a tasting! (I'll give it 3 weeks) The new make tasted excellent so I think it has a lot of promise.

Bad Mo's age slowly I'd give it at least a year before tasting. Patience is the hardest thing to learn in this craft.

Stay safe
OVZ

[welly]

Oh, filled my second BadMo barrel today with my single malt whisky. Ended up with around 5.75 litres at 63.5% ABV. Let's see how long I can keep it going before going in for a tasting! (I'll give it 3 weeks) The new make tasted excellent so I think it has a lot of promise.

Bad Mo's age slowly I'd give it at least a year before tasting. Patience is the hardest thing to learn in this craft.

Stay safe
OVZ

Yeah the plan is to let them sit for a couple of years but pretty sure I'll not be able to resist the odd sample here and there.

[welly]

Question about keeping a BadMo barrel in good condition when you first get one. Is it enough to stick a bottle of cheap vodka in a barrel and keep it barrel head side down until you get it filled properly? So you'd have enough spirit to keep the barrel head wet until you're ready to fill?

[jonnys_spirit]

That would work but you might also like to use a wine/port/cider/mead depending on how long it might be and whether you want to impart some flavor or just remove some.

When I got mine I first filled them with water for a month or so as i filled them first time. I have one about to empty that will be destined as a bourbon finishing barrel that I might fill with a port during the interim.

Cheers,
J

[Deplorable]

Question about keeping a BadMo barrel in good condition when you first get one. Is it enough to stick a bottle of cheap vodka in a barrel and keep it barrel head side down until you get it filled properly? So you'd have enough spirit to keep the barrel head wet until you're ready to fill?

When he ships them they're sealed in a bag, if ya leave it sealed in that bag it ain't gonna dry out.

If ya already ripped that bag open like a kid on Christmas morning, just store it in a cool place in the house rather than out in the hot stillin she'd. It should be fine for a few months.

I left a 5 gallon barrel empty in my garage from the beginning of March through the heat of summer before refilling it in August and it didn't leak at all. They don't shrink up that fast.

[welly]

Question about keeping a BadMo barrel in good condition when you first get one. Is it enough to stick a bottle of cheap vodka in a barrel and keep it barrel head side down until you get it filled properly? So you'd have enough spirit to keep the barrel head wet until you're ready to fill?

When he ships them they're sealed in a bag, if ya leave it sealed in that bag it ain't gonna dry out.

If ya already ripped that bag open like a kid on Christmas morning, just store it in a cool place in the house rather than out in the hot stillin she'd. It should be fine for a few months.

I left a 5 gallon barrel empty in my garage from the beginning of March through the heat of summer before refilling it in August and it didn't leak at all. They don't shrink up that fast.

Ah! That's useful to know. I'll be using one straight away, the other I'll leave sealed up until I'm ready for it (probably not too long). Going to transfer my single malt whisky which is currently in a virgin oak BadMo barrel to an ex bourbon BadMo barrel.

Cheers!

[welly]

That would work but you might also like to use a wine/port/cider/mead depending on how long it might be and whether you want to impart some flavor or just remove some.

When I got mine I first filled them with water for a month or so as i filled them first time. I have one about to empty that will be destined as a bourbon finishing barrel that I might fill with a port during the interim.

Cheers,
J

That's an idea too. As I said above, got a single malt scotch ageing in a virgin oak BadMo which is going to move to an ex bourbon BadMo barrel. Have to decide what to do with the virgin oak one in the meantime but there's a few ideas. Should only be for a month or so until I've got enough spirit for another whisky or a rum or possibly a bourbon.

[ChristopherC]

I started a thread about a Badmotivator Tribute Rum. It would mean a lot if everyone could participate and pay tribute to Ben's legacy.

viewtopic.php?t=91051

[ChristopherC]

I did an engraving for one of my friends and it came out amazing. This new laser engraver is very cool

[The Baker]

Thanks, Jon.
I just started a thread, Kicked out of eBay after 37 minutes. (!!!)

And this will tell you how ignorant I am about eBay; can I BUY stuff on eBay without being a MEMBER??
And can I do that even though they have just arse-holed me as a member??!!
Is membership just for people SELLING stuff??!!
It would be really helpful to know this stuff.

Thanks again.

Geoff
By the way I also now have another three on click and collect at the Kyabram store,
though they haven't yet confirmed availability.
I can arrange for my friend who lives there or my son who drives a pathology courier car through there to collect. G

As well as that four:
I was walking down the road today (to get a bit fitter) and came to a garage sale (yard sale...).
Got another (used) pot about the same size, could be a bit heavier metal, for $5.

Geoff

[OtisT]

Hi Chris. I decided to refurbish my first Badmo barrel from Ben, #43, for my tribute rum. Ben gave this barrel to me when we first met in person, at an HD distillery crawl in Portland.

The barrel has been dry for about four years and the head was loose enough to pop out easily. Even though the original head never moved while in use I do want to add some stainless steel pins to hold it in place. A few questions for you about how best to approach this.

1) Should I swell the head first before adding the pins? The head a slightly bowed now, so it may be hard to get it to swell straight without pinning it first.

2) I plan to use a counter sink punch to mark the spot, then just drive a pin in with a hammer. Should I predrill to prevent any splitting?

3) Any other advice for me before I pin things

Thanks,
Otis

[wanderingnunical]

I was looking for cheap wood for a project and I stumbled upon this local rough sawn 1", 2 yr old yard aged, white oak. Of course, I picked up way more than I needed to make a picture frame. I tried to select what appeared to be more edge grain than face grain, but I didn't get so lucky there.

I have searched the forums for leakage on face cut wood with little success. All I can find are to expect a greater angels share due to the medullary rays. Checking in the wood confirmed the fact that this could be problematic and got me to thinking. Face sawn wood can be cut into 1" staves which and be rotated 90 degrees to achieve the quarter sawn grain. Of course, this now leaves me with 10 staves vs three so that may give more to the angels than face sawn.

I do not have a shaper capable of creating finger joints and joinery would reduce the stave width further, meaning more staves and more leakage paths. A floating tenon however, would preserve the width and could be quarter sawn.

My thought is to run each stave across the 1/4" wide dado setup at 1/4" depth, then use the quarter sawn tenons to assemble. Flour paste could be added, but I doubt I would need it after swelling.

Has anyone tried this?

My bain-marie arrives today and my rye mash is almost at terminal gravity..... I'm thinking of giving it a shot.

[welly]

Wondered if anyone has the diameter of the BadMo barrel to hand? A mate of mine is going to make a couple of barrel stands for me.

Thanks!

[higgins]

...
My thought is to run each stave across the 1/4" wide dado setup at 1/4" depth, then use the quarter sawn tenons to assemble. Flour paste could be added, but I doubt I would need it after swelling.
...

I've made several BMOBs, and a few have leaked a bit thru the face, especially when I put them in a heated box (it is surprising how much pressure builds up with 95F heat). I've never had an issue with leaking thru the joint, with or without beeswax.

My thought is that it would be difficult to keep it together while cutting the circle and sanding a tapered edge. Tenons might work better if flat sawn as they will be more prone to swelling in thickness rather than width. Maybe you could soak the tenons for a few minutes before assembly and the swelling would keep the 1" staves together for further processing.

Wondered if anyone has the diameter of the BadMo barrel to hand? A mate of mine is going to make a couple of barrel stands for me.

Thanks!

I'm not sure what Bain Maries Christopher is currently using, but my one Badmotivator barrel (#484) is made from a Thunder Group SLBM006. My first batch was made from Winco 8.25 qt BMs and I had trouble with them because the top third or so is not tapered. I now use the TG BMs, which are tapered the full length. I bandsaw my barrel heads to just a touch over 8" diameter, then sand them at a 2° bevel to just under 8" dia until they fit in about half the thickness. I made my barrel stand with cutouts using a 4" radius.

[ChristopherC]

Hi Chris. I decided to refurbish my first Badmo barrel from Ben, #43, for my tribute rum. Ben gave this barrel to me when we first met in person, at an HD distillery crawl in Portland.

The barrel has been dry for about four years and the head was loose enough to pop out easily. Even though the original head never moved while in use I do want to add some stainless steel pins to hold it in place. A few questions for you about how best to approach this.

1) Should I swell the head first before adding the pins? The head a slightly bowed now, so it may be hard to get it to swell straight without pinning it first.

2) I plan to use a counter sink punch to mark the spot, then just drive a pin in with a hammer. Should I predrill to prevent any splitting?

3) Any other advice for me before I pin things

Thanks,
Otis

Hey Otis,

That's a real piece of history with barrel #43! I'm thrilled you're taking the time to refurbish it for your tribute rum.

To your questions:

1) It's typically a good idea to swell the head first before adding pins. This will ensure a tight fit, making the pinning process easier. If the head is slightly bowed, swelling it could help straighten things out.

2) Definitely predrill. It'll reduce the risk of splitting, especially with the wood being older and possibly drier from those years of non-use.

3) As for additional advice: Go slow and be gentle. These barrels have stories and history, so every bit of care you provide ensures they continue to serve their purpose.

Wishing you the best with the refurbishing process. I'm sure Ben would be thrilled to know his barrel is in such good hands.

All the best,
Christopher

[ChristopherC]

Wondered if anyone has the diameter of the BadMo barrel to hand? A mate of mine is going to make a couple of barrel stands for me.

Thanks!

For the BadMo barrel, the diameter at the larger end is 20.5cm and at the smaller end, it's 19cm. Hope this helps your mate with the stands!

Cheers!

[ChristopherC]

...
I have searched the forums for leakage on face cut wood with little success. All I can find are to expect a greater angels share due to the medullary rays. Checking in the wood confirmed the fact that this could be problematic and got me to thinking. Face sawn wood can be cut into 1" staves which and be rotated 90 degrees to achieve the quarter sawn grain. Of course, this now leaves me with 10 staves vs three so that may give more to the angels than face sawn.
...

Sounds like you've stumbled upon a good find with that white oak! When I come across flat-sawn lumber such as this, I will break it down and pull off the riff-sawn pieces. I haven't had any issues with riff-sawn vs quarter-sawn grain orientation. While I haven't personally tried the floating tenon method you've mentioned, your approach seems logical. Rotating the staves to get that quarter-sawn grain orientation should improve the seal.

Using quarter-sawn tenons might help maintain the integrity of the seal, especially given the challenges with the increased number of staves. I would consider beeswax over flour paste. I don't think flour paste will hold up long term.

Would love to hear how it turns out.

Cheers!

[wanderingnunical]

Thanks for the tip Christopher. I will definitely go the beeswax route and post pics of the build process!

[wanderingnunical]

So I did some work over the past two days. I cut all of my Staves and put them in the oven for toasting. The attached photos show the checking that happened through the process. Here is the visual proof of why we must use quarters Sawn wood. It’s rather unbelievable.

I thought my plan was foolproof therefore, I made all of my staves and cut all of the grooves. I learned when I went to assemble that the cracks in these rays are very very deep, almost all the way through the staves. Unfortunately, when I inserted in my floating tenants, all of these staves simply cracked in half.

The pictures of the cracked staves are both the same piece, only rotated 90°. You can see how the cracks appear along the rays.

[wanderingnunical]

Tonight I was planning on cutting new 2 inch staves and just using beeswax between them. As I was disassembling yesterday‘s mess, I noticed that my staves with only a single groove were not split. If I have the structural integrity for 1/4 inch deep groove, I should be able to get away with two 1/8 inch deep grooves.

So that’s what I did tonight, I shortened my tenons to a quarter inch and put a 1/8th inch deep x quarter inch wide groove. We have success….

Next up, beeswax and cut it!

[ChristopherC]

Tonight I was planning on cutting new 2 inch staves and just using beeswax between them. As I was disassembling yesterday‘s mess, I noticed that my staves with only a single groove were not split. If I have the structural integrity for 1/4 inch deep groove, I should be able to get away with two 1/8 inch deep grooves.

So that’s what I did tonight, I shortened my tenons to a quarter inch and put a 1/8th inch deep x quarter inch wide groove. We have success….

Next up, beeswax and cut it!

Wow, that's quite the journey you've been on with the staves! It's amazing how something like wood grain can have such a big impact on the final product. Thanks for sharing your discoveries and the photos—it's a real lesson in the importance of quarter-sawn wood.

It's great to hear you found a workaround with the shallower grooves, and I'm excited to see how the beeswax and final cut turn out. You're getting close to having a complete head, and that's really cool to see.

Keep up the great work, and please continue to share your progress. If there's anything I can help with, just let me know!

Cheers!

[wanderingnunical]

Well team, I have given up on my design for the time being...

Dealing with that many staves creates a very unstable barrel head which is difficult to work with.... this was expected and I had a trick up my sleeve to handle it. The trick is to create a perfect size circle out of 1/4" plywood and glue it to the barrel head separated by a piece of paper. The result is a fairly strong bond that can be easily separated in the future. I then tried to use a flush trim bit on my router to finish off the head.

Long story short, the paper glue technique isn't strong enough to withstand the power of that router bit. AS I approached the short end staves, pieces started flying. 1/5 stars, would not recommend.

I moved forward with a three stave rift sawn design utilizing floating tenons and will monitor losses.

[subbrew]

Well team, I have given up on my design for the time being...

Dealing with that many staves creates a very unstable barrel head which is difficult to work with.

Could you just put a couple of perpendicular staves or other boards across the front? Use stainless nails to attach the staves. Similar to how stakes are used on the side of a older wooden box grain truck.

[wanderingnunical]

I considered similar methods, but in tbe end I asked myself if i NEEDED quarter sawn wood if i chose my pieces carefully. Seeing as how we are dealing with a few quarts and not 55 gallons, I figured it may be good enough.

The circle is better cut on a tablesaw vs a router. I suspect had i used that method the barrel would have been a success.

[Whotan]

How long can my distillate be stored in it?
What experiences have you had from when it only tastes like wood?

[OtisT]

So I did some work over the past two days. I cut all of my Staves and put them in the oven for toasting. The attached photos show the checking that happened through the process. Here is the visual proof of why we must use quarters Sawn wood. It’s rather unbelievable.

I thought my plan was foolproof therefore, I made all of my staves and cut all of the grooves. I learned when I went to assemble that the cracks in these rays are very very deep, almost all the way through the staves. Unfortunately, when I inserted in my floating tenants, all of these staves simply cracked in half.

The pictures of the cracked staves are both the same piece, only rotated 90°. You can see how the cracks appear along the rays.

Do you know how dry that wood was when you toasted it again? I have found that wet wood will check a lot more than dry wood. You can’t really tell how dry wood is by looking at at. I uses a wood moisture meter and found that I start to see more checking when the wood is at 5% or greater in moisture. Wait until it gets under 5% and the checking should be reduced.

I have forced air heating in my home. I found that stacking dry wood over a vent with moving dry air for a few weeks was a simple way to dry out the wood enough for toasting. It would take weeks to go from 7% to 5%, so you have to be patient. With your smaller pieces, it should go quicker.