Wine question

[NorthWoodsAb]

Hi folks. I have never attempted wine before. Have brewed beer and fermented wash for the still.
My better half started 2 batches of wine, from kits a couple of weeks ago, 1 red 1 white for daughters wedding in Feb. Initially I think our room temp was a bit cool and yeast was slow taking off in primary fermenter. We wrapped them well and added belt heater to bring temp up to 25-27*C, and both took off. Instructions said 8 days in primary till sg came down to around 1.0 or 1.02. On day 3 we had no activity in fermenter and sg 0.994. No sugar left. Transferred to secondary but have not seen any activity.
Is there a way to salvage these to make a drinkable wine or is it destined for the still?
Thanks in advance

[NZChris]

What makes you think that there is something wrong with them?

[StillerBoy]

My better half started 2 batches of wine, from kits a couple of weeks ago,

There is instructions sheet with a wine kit, and on the sheet there is a phone number you can call for advise on from the maker of the kit..

We wrapped them well and added belt heater to bring temp up to 25-27*C,

Wine from kits are usually made at the 70 - 72*F range (around 22C).. higher than that is not recommended..

Wine kits should be started at the temp range recommended will take a day and half to start, and finish in about 6 days.. from the SG you have stated, it is done, and the reason was that the temp was raised about the recommend temp.. the overall flavour will be off some..

Mars

[StillerBoy]

I should of asked what grade or level kit it was you are making.. a 7.5 or 10 or 13 or 16 litre kit.. but they basicly use all the yeast.. either the Lalvin 1118 or 212..

the reason for asking, is that the higher premiums kit can be done differently than the lower kits.. but the temp for fermenting them are basicly all the same..

Mars

[NorthWoodsAb]

I ssqhould of asked what grade or level kit it was you are making.. a 7.5 or 10 or 13 or 16 litre kit.. but they basicly use all the yeast.. either the Lalvin 1118 or 212..
Mars

Both kits are 23L a Chardonnay and a Merot.

[NorthWoodsAb]

Thanks for replies guys. I'll give it a few more days. Re read the directions it may turn out ok. Indeed we did keep it 4 or 5 degrees warmer than recommended.

[NorthWoodsAb]

What makes you think that there is something wrong with them?

NZ you may be right. Let it run it's course. Like I said hever messed with wine before.
Cheers

[cayars]

A simple question, but directly to point, how does it taste right now?

Can you post a link to the wine kits you used. That may be of help so we at least know what kit you used. And maybe some people can give helpful advice beyond what you may get in the kit.

[NorthWoodsAb]

I racked the red for her, taste was very dry made my jaw muscles tighten. I didn't think it tasted bad but very tart. I prefer something sweeter. But I have never been a wine fan so probably the wrong person to ask for a wine opinion. The white she transferred, I have no idea what it tastes like.

https://www.noblegrape.ca/products/vint ... chardonnay

http://thewinewarehouse.ca/wine-kit/cheeky-monkey/

Both 23L kits

[cayars]

I couldn't find what's included in the kits.
Did you add potassium sorbate, potassium metabisulfite or sodium metabisulfite? These make the yeast go dormant and stop fermentation.
If so then you can add simple syrup (sugar solution) to sweeten the wine up which will get rid of a lot of the tartness and not have to worry about the yeast kicking back in and trying to ferment the new sugar.

I typically adjust the sweetness of most wines I make this way. Just grab a pan and make some simple syrup on the stove. Traditional simple syrup is 1 part water and 1 part sugar by volume (use a measuring cup). A 2:1 solution is 2 parts sugar to 1 part water. A 4:1 solution is 4 parts sugar to 1 part water. Just heat up on the stove to help the sugar melt. It should go clear (maybe a slight yellow tint). Try a small batch of 4:1 solution as you don't want to dilute the wine with water. You could try 8:1 for that matter.

Take a sample glass of wine and add a teaspoon/tablespoon of syrup at a time to see what it does to the wine. Experiment on a small sample like a wine glass full in case you don't like the results. Once you know you can improve it and what you want it to taste like you can do the same to the big batch a bit at a time, stir, sample, add more, stir, sample, etc until you get it to taste just right.

You can easily overdue it on purpose in the glass to see where things take a turn for the worse and know what the taste is like to stay below that sweetness level. A little sugar can go a long way removing tartness so experiment in the glass first!

BTW, you can even bottle some dryer first if you and wife differ on sweetness levels, then add the syrup and bottle some a bit sweeter.

[NorthWoodsAb]

Cayars yes the additives have been added to kill the yeast. Once it clears completely will taste test as you mentioned and see what we end up with.
Thanks again guys for help and advice.
Cheers
Oms

[cayars]

Yes you won't want to mix/stir in sugar if it hasn't cleared yet and been racked. You could of course grab a sample to play with before it's settled just to see what a bit of sugar syrup will do for it.

Let us know how things turn out. If you do end up adding some sugar (syrup), let us know how much syrup you ended up adding to diminish the tartness. Might help others down the road who read the forums.

[StillerBoy]

Both the kits are 10L kits with the possibility of making 23L of wine..

The chardonnay kit you have purchase is a dry wine to start with, so you may want to sweeten it up some.. but one thing to remember, do not sweeten the wine until it is completely done, and has been filtered.. otherwise, the yeast that are still in the wine will re-activate went sweeteners are added, and this will cause the corks to pop off..

I adjust the sweetness of my wine with a product call Wine Conditioner available at the BS, and from the 500ml bottle, about 3/4" of the liquid in a 23L batch will equate a raise in sweetness of one level up..

Mars

[cayars]

Mars, isn't that just inverted sugar syrup with potassium sorbate added?
Does it give the contents on the label?

He has already added a yeast inhibitor so really just needs the sugar.

[StillerBoy]

isn't that just inverted sugar syrup with potassium sorbate added?

Yes..

He has already added a yeast inhibitor so really just needs the sugar.

The small that has been already added in the finishing phase, is small in content and just enough for the 23L batch,.. adding extra inverted sugars would be ok provided the wines are going to be used in the near future, or within 3 - 4 after bottling..

The poster hasn't stated if he will be filtering the wine before bottling, which help in the removal of most of the active yeast still in the wine.. and even if it's filtered, the right filter size has to be used meaning at least a #2..

Mars

[cayars]

That's a good point Mars.
I typically use 1 micron on red and 0.49 on whites with a first pass using 5 micron. Also worth mentioning is that you really don't want to add the sugar until you are about to bottle it. Let it rest and develop as long as possible before bottling which often times improves and changes the tartness.

[StillerBoy]

Also worth mentioning is that you really don't want to add the sugar until you are about to bottle it.

Agree or just a few days before.. but that all depends on how you make the wine.. all my wines are aged after the clearing phase is done, and if I need to make an adjustment in sweetness, it is done at that time and before ageing.. and filtering is done after the ageing phase and just before bottling..

Let it rest and develop as long as possible before bottling which often times improves and changes the tartness.

Yes it very important to let wine rest between phase.. in other words, you filter and let it rest for 3 - 4 days.. you bottle and let rest upright for 3 - 4 days, then rest the bottles on it side.. you want the least of amount contact with air during all phases..

I let my rest/age for 6 months for whites, and 1 yr for red before it.s bottled, then another 3 months after that.. and if you want a very nice flavoured wine, instead of 23L batch, do it at the 20L level..

Mars

[cayars]

instead of 23L batch, do it at the 20L level..

Mars

Add less water and raise the taste profile and SG?

[NorthWoodsAb]

I let amy rest/age for 6 months for whites, and 1 yr for red before it.s bottled, then another 3 months after that.. and if you want a very nice flavoured wine, instead of 23L batch, do it at the 20L level..

Mars

Thanks for the advice. So after clearing and filtering you let it sit in a carboy for some months before adjusting sweetness and botteling?

A friend of mine said "wine is very easy and forgiving to make, not like beer" I'm begining to think I beg to differ with him. LOL I've never had any issue making beer.

[StillerBoy]

Add less water and raise the taste profile and SG?

It raises the taste and body profile.. and do mostly premium kits which have 18L of juice..

I will do a carmenere or nebblolo on a 20L batch in RJS premium kits which will have grape skins.. I just reduce the water addition to 20K instead of 23L, and nothing else, other than the step I do in the process are a little longer than what the instruction call for..

I will stop the primary at 1.005 which is usually around the fifth or sixth day, then rack into the secondary for 14 days, the rack into the clearing, adding the sulphite and sorbate and adjust the final taste profile, then let it be for 21 days, then rack into a clean glass carboy and forget it for 1 yr., then I cold store it at -10*F for 12 days, let it sit for few days, then filter and let it sit for 3 - 4 day then bottle, and forget it for 4 - 6 month.. then I have a wine that is to kill for, at least to my taste, and the people I have given some..

A lot of the wine I make are for my son, who gifts them to his clients.. and from what he tells me, it has become a habit of they expect the wine I've made..

Mars

[StillerBoy]

So after clearing and filtering you let it sit in a carboy for some months before adjusting sweetness and botteling?

No.. after clearing and filtering, I would adjust the sweetness at that time, then carboy it some months.. also keep in mind that sweetness will improve with time.. so don't over sweeten..

And a lower grade kit, lower grade being having less juice compared to the premium kit, a way to improve on the body of the wine is to add some glycerine, about 3 oz to a 23L batch, at the time of making the sweetness adjustment.. the way to taste the changes is to give it about an hr. then taste again before making any additional adjustment..

In your case, with the wedding in Feb., it doesn't give much time for storage in carboy.. if I were doing the wine for Feb., I would let the wine sit in the secondary stage for 15 days.. that will allow it to develop a better profile, then rack it into a clean carboy, add the clearing ingredients, and let sit for 21 day.. filter, sit, bottle..

Work out the schedule so that at the time it is bottle, it will have at least 3 wk, best 4 wk. before being served..

Mars

[cayars]

Mars, I've not got a lot of experience with the kits and their juice concentrations. I usually buy the grapes or already pressed juices in 6 gallon buckets but not concentrates.

I've got a couple of decent wine/brew store within an hour drive. This is one that is a wine supply only. They have grapes and fruits. Here's an idea of prices on pressed fruits and a "free 6 gallon bucket" https://ginopinto.com/natural-select-fruit-juice/
Pretty much $56 to $75 for 6 gallons. Grape prices from all over the world are very similar prices but you have to call ahead to get on the waiting list and be there for pickup when they come in or they will be gone in 2 days. I always have the other needed items on hand as I buy them in bulk so little need for a kit.

Next year I want to try some locally grown grapes as I'm in NJ which is part of the Outer Coastal Plain and is very similar to France's growing conditions. I'm going to spend some time in the new year visiting some local vineyards/wineries and see if I can arrange to purchase grapes wholesale from them. Something like 1/2 ton to 1 ton if the price is right. Either raw grapes or pressed. I've got a couple of friends who will go in on this with me. I want at least 500 pounds myself. I've not done a batch that big yet but about half that size.

I was close to your process until you got to the "rest 1 year" part. I'm more like 3 months rest as I always need the storage back. I'd love to age longer and one year is my goal for some wines. I'm looking to maybe pickup some 55 gallon SS drums for this which would take up less room and be more cost effective. I'm also looking to pick up a couple of used 53 gallon whiskey barrels about an hour away for a really good price ($65 each already paid for). Just waiting for them to be emptied. Last year I missed out on a local winery (very small) who was going out of business and sold a variety of barrel sizes from $25 to $40. 2.5 miles from my house and I found out they went out of business a smidge late. A "friend" purchased about a dozen barrels and won't sell me even one of them. Prick

[cayars]

A friend of mine said "wine is very easy and forgiving to make, not like beer" I'm begining to think I beg to differ with him. LOL I've never had any issue making beer.

Nah, it's pretty easy, just different. It's always harder the first time or two, especially with the pressure of getting it just right.

Do you have the bottles, corks and corker? Hand or floor cooker, not that it matters, just curious.
Are you going to put labels and/or caps on them? We can help with this if needed.
Maybe make a couple of bottle labels special and hold them back. Like a 5 year and 10 year anniversary edition bottle. Give them as an additional wedding gift.
Do you have a way to filter the wine with a set of micron filters? If not we can recommend a cheap way to filter for $25ish that will get the job done. It's nice to filter but not totally required.
Is there catering staff that will uncork and pour the wines for the toast (assuming) or will you put the bottles on the tables? If latter make sure you have cork screws per table.
What's the actual wedding date the bottles have to be ready?

Knowing the actual date we can work back from that date to recommend when to add some "sugar" with enough time to rest before bottling.

Mars and I disagree a bit on when to add sugar/syrup, but in your case it doesn't matter as we will both be very similar time frames. I think Mars prefers to add it a bit more upfront them me. I prefer to see how the wine develops before I add it and will add it closer to bottle time. In your case we'll both be in the same realm of time frame as February is coming up fast.

BTW, congrats on the wedding!

PS if you don't want to be overwhelmed by advice, just listen to Stillerboy/Mars as he knows his craft.

[StillerBoy]

Another thing that I didn't mention, was that during the secondary and clearing phase, the temperature should be below the fermentation level, in other words, below 70*F and 65 - 60*F is very good at stage... and also store the cleared wine at that range..

I was at my friend's BS today, and mention this thread, and he stated that the manufactures has changed the process.. they have removed the secondary process.. and now the process goes from primary right into the clearing stage.. I personally don't agree with it, but who am I to tell the companies what to do.. all I know is that the way I've been doing my wine for the past 15 yrs produce some very nice wine, it's was they were teaching back then, and in line with what the wine makers do.. maybe I've missed out on the new process ? ? who knows

A c'est la vie..

Mars

[cayars]

What is the secondary process they are referring to?
Is it a rack and clearing? Are they trying to market a product that is ready is X days? While those that make wine, run vineyards, don't have a stake in quick turn around wines would probably disagree. A 2nd rack is good, a 3rd rack is better. Filtering yet better yet.

Lots of steps assuming time is available to make the spirit better. Red wine more than white generally speaking, especially if oak is involved.

There is a lot that can be done for wine to make it better, but not if it's marketing as a 30 or 60 day wine.

A wine that is started and bottled in 30 days might be "semi-ok".
Same wine in 60 days might be "ok".
Same wine in 90 days might be "good"
Same wine in 180 days might be "very good"
Same wine in 1 year might be great.

Very few wines IMHO are "good" in 30 days as many kits portray. The "science" just isn't in their corner.

Not in the corner of my house dedicated wine anyway. LOL

[StillerBoy]

What is the secondary process they are referring to?

The primary process is making alcohol, which is usually done in 6 - 8 days, depending on the sweetness one wants in the finished wine.. if you want stop the alcohol process, it is done by racking the wine off it's lee at the 1.010 - 1.005 range.. and it doesn't have to be under air lock

Then the wine that has just been racked wine into a new carboy, this stage is now called the secondary, and now need to be under air lock. will continue the alcohol fermentation process but with less active yeast in the mix, and will go into a secondary fermentation after the yeast have finish the alcohol process.. this is the stage that the wine gets its character.. so is where I differ with the companies now,, I like to give the wine, white 14 days, reds 21 day, cause the red have more to work on because of them having had skins..

Then it on to the clearing stage, degas, add some sulphite, some sorbate, some sweetner if you want to change the dryness of the wine, then on to the two clearing agents, and give that stage 21 days or more, depending on how time you want, because it really doesn't matter after the 21 day..

Then it on the filtering stage and bottling or if you want to age it some, then you don't filter at this stage and just store it in an air tight environment and cool place for what ever time one wants..

How you store it is much like ageing whiskey, it a trial and error method, until has done it enough to get a profile on time and flavour..

On a different note, just finish bottling the last batch of dessert wine, an RJS Creme Brulee with brandy add to the mix as an extra touch.. will be ready for Christmas.. good right now, but will be much better in a few week..

Mars

[NorthWoodsAb]

[quote=cayars post_id=7581843

Do you have the bottles, corks and corker?

Knowing the actual date we can work back from that date to recommend when to add some "sugar" with enough time to rest before bottling.

BTW, congrats on the wedding!

PS if you don't want to be overwhelmed by advice, just listen to Stillerboy/Mars as he knows his craft.
[/quote]

The bottles and corks we haven't got yet. The gal that runs the local brew shop also has a brew room. Probably should have taken advantage of that. She also has a plate filter she said we could use when the time comes.

Wedding date is Feb 29th.

Don't worry about me becoming overwhelmed. Good info is much appreciated. Even differing points of view gives options to consider. Then ask more questions.

[StillerBoy]

The bottles and corks we haven't got yet. The gal that runs the local brew shop also has a brew room. Probably should have taken advantage of that. She also has a plate filter she said we could use when the time comes.
Wedding date is Feb 29th.

Ok.. you've got just over two months.. so here's some suggestions..

You are presently, if I read the thread right, in the clearing stage.. the CC instruction sheet states 15 days then on to the polishing stage.. will if it was me, I would give it 30 days, so from today that will bring you to the the first of Jan,, then get it filter at the BS, let it rest for a week, then bottle it..

Now since it your first time at this, you don't have equipment to bottle the wine, equipment being stand corker, corks and a bottle filler tube..

So here's better plan for you.. check with the BS if you can filter the wine and let it sit for a few days before bottling the wine at their location.. if they are ok with that, then do that, and once the wine is bottled, and dress them up with labels and shrink wraps..

Them once they have all been dressed up. let them stand upright for 3 - 4 days, then lay them on their side in a dark cool place until there are to be used..

It's not that wine is hard to make, it's the equipment needed to do some task requires in each stage that become expense.. unless you are going to make wines in the future, then at the stage your're at, you could get use stand corker, and mini jet filter.. it's the filter unit that somewhat costly, use about 75 - 100$, new about 175 -200$..

Mars

[pope]

I've not yet made great wine so all I can really contribute is that imo GIGO applies to any distilling substrate. If you have a fermented beverage that you don't like, distilling might make it better, but don't have high hopes. Then again if you want neutral that's another story, you can rectify almost anythng with a reflux column you just have to ask 'is it worth it'.

[cayars]

What is the secondary process they are referring to?

secondary fermentation

Got ya.

DSC012402.jpg

Those are some nice looking labels.

Wedding date is Feb 29th.

Leap day wedding?
It'll suck to only get an anniversary gift every four years. LOL

The bottles and corks we haven't got yet. The gal that runs the local brew shop also has a brew room. Probably should have taken advantage of that. She also has a plate filter she said we could use when the time comes.

Mars got you covered on the time table of when to get things done. I assume the store will get you the bottles, corks and if they are letting you use their filter then I'd imagine they will let you cork as well.

Sounds like the only thing left to think about is the labels and making sure you have cork screws available on wedding day. If you print the labels and have a couple of extra bottles, do the Anniversary Editions for 1, 5 and maybe 10 years to give them as a gift. Don't laugh but I was at a wedding the family hosted at a Moose Hall and there was only one cork screw available so it took a while to get all the bottles open before making the toast. I always think of that now as it was pretty awkward.