Looking to build a CCVM

[muse]

Hi
I'm looking to build a CCVM after lots of research, is there a decent build plan or guide I can follow please. I've done lots of searches and most don't detail the lengths of pipe, size of condensers etc.

I was thinking 2" or 3" SS
copper packers in the colum
Maybe a copper shotgun condenser

I have an old beer keg and will use electric, unsure on wattage yet.


Thanks

[Twisted Brick]

If your searches haven't been productive you aren't looking hard enough. There is a ton of CCVM reading available that discusses everything from dimensions, to packing, sight glasses and reflux condensers. And oh yes, how to run it.

The rule of thumb for column height is 20:1 rise:diameter, or 40" packing height for a 2" column.

homedistiller CCVM

[still_stirrin]

… I've done lots of searches and most don't detail the lengths of pipe, size of condensers etc.

Muse, the CCVM is a reflux “column”. So, look in the Column Build forum. There’s a few good threads there to read through. Help yourself.
ss

[Yummyrum]

Agree Twisted .
Scroll down past the top two hits in this link and here are all the HD forum CCVM builds .

app.php/googlesearch?cx=012980085383122 ... mit=Search

There are two search options on this forum . The built in one that comes with the forum sux,( thats the search button on the left of a page )
so Uncle Jesse added the Google search button on the top right of the task bar .( It shows as a magnifying glass icon on my Iphone )
This search uses googles search engine to look only at our forum and it is extremely good at finding stuff .

[muse]

Thanks, I've been using the incorrect terminology and also utilising the search function wrong..

Embarrassingly I can only apologise.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Still getting the hang of how to use forums efficiently

[MooseMan]

Hey muse, no need to apologise, we all have to learn things here that are new to us all the time, that's part of the fun!

Now you know where to look, have a good browse and decide on what you think you want to aim at, then run it by us all here for input.

2" on a keg is the simplest way to start.

[Yummyrum]

Agree with mooseman about the 2” .
I started with a 2” and ran it for years . Went to a 4” and it was a bad move . Gone back to my 2” .
As an example . If I put 25 litres of stripped wash ( stripping means running it fast through a pot still to remove most of the water ) into my boiler , it’ll take me the best part of 8hrs from switch on and heatup , equalisation time , slowly drawing off fires and heads and then taking the hearts before finally detecting tails and shutting down .
That will typically get me around 7litres of 95-96% abv spirit . That’ll get me about 17litres when diluted back to 40%abv .

Not a bad amount for a days work .
If I had a 3” , with the same boiler charge (25 litres) , I might expect it to be all over in around 4-5 hours

[Salt Must Flow]

Like everyone says, 2" is relatively slow. 4" uses a lot of power. 3" seems just right for me.

If you're still reading up on designs, check out VM (Vapor Management). The main difference between VM and CCVM is that VM just uses a take-off valve and CCVM requires that you manually raise and lower the reflux condenser to adjust take-off rate. A valve is way more convenient. Another benefit to VM is that you can monitor the vapor temp from start to finish. With a CCVM, you cannot observe the vapor temp until you raise the reflux condenser and begin taking off product.

[Stonecutter]

Kudos for wanting to build your own! It is well worth it!
If you can go 3” go for it. If built properly it could definitely give you a faster takeoff rate over a 2” pipe.
Just remember that’s 2:1 so you’re over 5 feet or nearly 2 meters in packing alone excluding the tee and your precondenser coil housing plus room to move the coil.
I personally use a 2” setup and have been happy with it so far.
I love my copper shotgun condenser, if built properly a shotgun condenser should be able to easily knock down anything you can send at it with the setup you’re talking about.

Glad to see that you’re on a better path to searching for the info within the forum thanks to a few of the many knowledgeable and helpful members here.
Most folks just want to see an honest attempt at finding info from others and they’re more than willing to help.
Looking forward to updates on your progress whatever you choose to build Muse.

[muse]

So progress is going well but SLOW
Hopefully I'm heading in the right direction...

I've started building a 2" CCVM
* 50 litre stainless keg
* 2" hole for filling
* no drain hole yet.. Need an idea
* 1.3m column
* 2" 600mm X4 (15mm pipes) shotgun condenser
* 3000kw electric heater (with controller)
* 9mm copper reflux coil (single wound with finger)
* 6mm cooling pipes (ran from mains supply)
* fine welding wire and copper scrubbies packing (1.3m)
* sight glass

Few questions:
1) looking at the photos, does my T piece need a copper extension for the RC to slide in or is the height OK as it is?

2) out of the PC can I drop down to 15mm pipe? Will this also work in pot still mode, or do you need more pressure relief?

3) I haven't drilled a drain hole yet... 2" ferrule drain valves are very expensive. Could I possibly solder a piece of 22mm pipe directly into a hole in the keg, or is there a simple bulk head fitting? Access inside the keg is limited as I only have x2 2" access ports on the top, and a 2.5" hole for the heater ferrule.


Thanks!!

[muse]

[muse]

bump

[Sporacle]

Personally I think you'll need another spool above your T, also you may have to extend the tails vertically for your RC a bit longer

Remove the additional spool and add a blank cap for pot mode, no prv required as long as there is an uninterrupted path for the vapour to exit.

To drain your keg turn it upside down and use 2 inch port.
That worked for me on my first build, simple cheap although it's a bit fiddly

[Yummyrum]

I’m a bit worried about that serious looking kink on your coil …… looks like it is almost bent flat and may seriously impede water flow . Have you tested how many litres a min it will pass

[MooseMan]

So progress is going well but SLOW
Hopefully I'm heading in the right direction...

I've started building a 2" CCVM
* 50 litre stainless keg
* 2" hole for filling
* no drain hole yet.. Need an idea
* 1.3m column
* 2" 600mm X4 (15mm pipes) shotgun condenser
* 3000kw electric heater (with controller)
* 9mm copper reflux coil (single wound with finger)
* 6mm cooling pipes (ran from mains supply)
* fine welding wire and copper scrubbies packing (1.3m)
* sight glass

Few questions:
1) looking at the photos, does my T piece need a copper extension for the RC to slide in or is the height OK as it is?

2) out of the PC can I drop down to 15mm pipe? Will this also work in pot still mode, or do you need more pressure relief?

3) I haven't drilled a drain hole yet... 2" ferrule drain valves are very expensive. Could I possibly solder a piece of 22mm pipe directly into a hole in the keg, or is there a simple bulk head fitting? Access inside the keg is limited as I only have x2 2" access ports on the top, and a 2.5" hole for the heater ferrule.


Thanks!!

Off to a great start muse.

1. Yes you'll need a short section above the tee, for your RC to sit in. Buy an 8-10" section or make one from copper.

2. Yes after the elbow, you can drop down in pipe size for your PC. 15mm would be too small for my liking, I went for 22mm vapor pipe. Will work for pot mode no problem.

3. Yes you can just solder a stub of 22mm into the hole, that's what I'm planning on my next boiler.

Check that coil is able to pass a decent flow of water, the kinks in the return look quite severe.

Great progress though!

[Bee]

A keg is small enough you can turn it over and drain it out the fill hole.

[muse]

Thanks for the suggestions

With regards to the kink in my RC I was going to scrap it but the water flow is very fast still! I was very shocked. Plus I'm using mains pressure so there's no problems there. What should my flow rate be?

At full extent (reflux mode) how far does the RC need to go towards the sight glass? I'm assuming the extra collar you're all recommending is to give more reflux space as opposed to holding the coil further away from the sight glass?

Hopefully that makes sense

[greggn]

At full extent (reflux mode) how far does the RC need to go towards the sight glass?

Are you sure you understand the operation of a CCVM ? Understanding how it works drives how it's built.

[Wildcats]

I’m a bit worried about that serious looking kink on your coil …… looks like it is almost bent flat and may seriously impede water flow . Have you tested how many litres a min it will pass

+1 I can see more than one flat spot in the coil you have in the picture. Needs to be addressed to insure enough water flow through the reflux condenser.

[Yummyrum]

With regards to the kink in my RC I was going to scrap it but the water flow is very fast still! I was very shocked. Plus I'm using mains pressure so there's no problems there. What should my flow rate be?

Thats good to hear
With mains pressure you can probably use it as is . Just might struggle if you went to a reservoir and pump setup

So mines a dual coil .IIRC it used about 5 metres of 1/4” so maybe hard to compare apples and pears . But I have the still running now so just checked .
I was running it at 2l/min apparently and the discharge temp was 45°C
Turned it down to 1l/min and it was still able to completely knock down 2400w . The discharge temp rose to 58°C
I could probably use even less but I like a big safety margin.


But if I can still get away with 1L/min on a dual coil , you should be able to piss it in on a single coil with 2L/min .
If you can do more than that , you’re laughing .

[muse]

Thanks guys! Yes, I can easily achieve well over 2l / min. Thanks for the good explanation

Serious question, I've browsed the forum search, and haven't got a decent answer. How do you know when the boiler level is approaching the element level without opening it up? Or do you reach tails well before levels get too low? assuming I start with a full boiler, (50 litre capacity, so maybe, 40 litre starting volume.)

Thanks again, I appreciate every response

[Salt Must Flow]

Thanks guys! Yes, I can easily achieve well over 2l / min. Thanks for the good explanation

Serious question, I've browsed the forum search, and haven't got a decent answer. How do you know when the boiler level is approaching the element level without opening it up? Or do you reach tails well before levels get too low? assuming I start with a full boiler, (50 litre capacity, so maybe, 40 litre starting volume.)

Thanks again, I appreciate every response

I forget where I read this, but it was said that if you do a stripping run (approx 10% ABV) you will get approx 2 gallons of low wines (collecting to 40% ABV). That might not be 100% accurate, but the point is, if you start with a relatively full boiler, whether you're doing a stripping run or a spirit run, you won't get anywhere near close to exposing the element. You'll see this with experience too. When you're done with a run you know how much you collected, how much is left in the boiler and how much you started with.

Running small boiler charges is where you need to be concerned with exposing the element.

[NormandieStill]

Serious question, I've browsed the forum search, and haven't got a decent answer. How do you know when the boiler level is approaching the element level without opening it up? Or do you reach tails well before levels get too low? assuming I start with a full boiler, (50 litre capacity, so maybe, 40 litre starting volume.)

Thanks again, I appreciate every response

1. Put measured amounts of water into your still until the element is just covered. This is your minimum volume.
2. When filling, ensure that you know how much wash you've put in.
3. Wash in - minimum volume = maximum take off volume.

Now you know how much product you can pull before you risk exposing the element.

[Yummyrum]

Good advice above .

But the answer to how much to initially charge the boiler will vary depending on if you are doing a stripping run , Spirit run on low wines or a Spirit run on straight Wash .

I included Stripping Run as it was a boiler question , even though you may not do it in your CCVM .
On a stripping run with about 10% abv in the boiler you will be left with around 3/4 to 4/5ths of what you started with . So as long as that is still above your element minimum fill volume Normandie mentioned , you are good.

On a Spirit run using low wines ( Stripped wash) you’d typically have about 30% abv in the boiler . You will be left with just over 2/3 to about 2/3 of the initial charge in the boiler. Again ,you need to do the math to see if 2/3 of what you start with is still going to cover your element …. Plus a safety margin .

Now , if you are using your CCVM ( presumable to make a Neutral circa 94% + abv from a straight wash , you will end up with around 9/10 of your charge left in the boiler .

So the safest option iff’n you are worried is the last one . But it won’t result in as clean a product than if you strip and spirit run .

Which means you need to do 3 or 4 stripping runs before you can confidently fill your boiler for a low wines Spirit run ……. But oh it is worth it

[muse]

Good advice above .

But the answer to how much to initially charge the boiler will vary depending on if you are doing a stripping run , Spirit run on low wines or a Spirit run on straight Wash .

I included Stripping Run as it was a boiler question , even though you may not do it in your CCVM .
On a stripping run with about 10% abv in the boiler you will be left with around 3/4 to 4/5ths of what you started with . So as long as that is still above your element minimum fill volume Normandie mentioned , you are good.

On a Spirit run using low wines ( Stripped wash) you’d typically have about 30% abv in the boiler . You will be left with just over 2/3 to about 2/3 of the initial charge in the boiler. Again ,you need to do the math to see if 2/3 of what you start with is still going to cover your element …. Plus a safety margin .

Now , if you are using your CCVM ( presumable to make a Neutral circa 94% + abv from a straight wash , you will end up with around 9/10 of your charge left in the boiler .

So the safest option iff’n you are worried is the last one . But it won’t result in as clean a product than if you strip and spirit run .

Which means you need to do 3 or 4 stripping runs before you can confidently fill your boiler for a low wines Spirit run ……. But oh it is worth it

Absolutely golden advice!!! Exactly what I wanted. Thanks everyone for chipping in. Can't wait to get started and post some results

[subbrew]

My numbers vary a bit from Yummy, but I tend to go very deep on stripping runs, below 5% at the spout. I just did a stripping run last night and on a 10.5 gal charge I took off 3.2 gal in low wines. That would be 70% left of just over 2/3 of the original charge.

[muse]

Update:
I fermented 70 Litres of TFFV (Ted's Fast Fermenting Vodka)
Using Aquarium heater maintained temp approx 28 degrees C

Day 1: 1.067 SG (Ph ~5)
Day 11: 1.001 (Ph ~3.2) Maybe Ph drop is reason for the long fermenter?

First Stripping Run (35 Litre Charge)
50% initial product, ran for ~2 hours to 4% at parrot (25% overall)

All seems good! I ran hard sub 10% because the flavour profile was quite good!

[still_stirrin]

First Stripping Run (35 Litre Charge)
50% initial product, ran for ~2 hours to 4% at parrot (25% overall)

All seems good! I ran hard sub 10% because the flavour profile was quite good!

How much low wines did you collect from the 1st run (strip)? From a 35l charge, I’d anticipate 8 to 9 liters. Is that about what you collected?
ss

[muse]

Approximately 11.5 litres of 25%. My original 70 litres could have been slightly off.