Pure acids and ester production

Distillation methods and improvements.

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Re: Pure acids and ester production

Postby engunear » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:11 pm

Yeah maybe, but when you have 30,000 liters or whatever they use, the climate does not amount to much compared to the heat from exothermic reactions. Nor would the odd vinegar fly. I'd be pretty sure these people are way past airborne insects affecting their ferment.

(I'm always amazed at US Budweiser. Its a very low flavoured beer, which means no way to hide faults, and very sensitive to starting materials. Yet it is made in four places in the US, and damned if I can tell any differences. Artistically, its crap. But as a piece of food tech, those brewers know their stuff. Nothing coming out of the big companies is random.)

The Scots (Abelour) start at 18C and it ferments up to 30C.

Why are you running from "copper converts ethyl acetate to copper acetate and ethyl alcohol"? It may be just a teutonic vs more lackadaisical thinking. One one hand keep all plausible options open, on the other choose one that fits the facts and run, with no actual disagreement. But we know only copper is used for whiskey still heads. We know copper affects flavour. So why not that it affects the most obvious flavour that some class as a fault?

Now where this could go is "take a copper packed fractional column with as much surface area as you can manage. Add clean alcohol plus 2ml per liter ethyl acetate. Leave on 100% reflux for one day. Compare ethyl acetate before and after."
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.

Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
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Re: Pure acids and ester production

Postby der wo » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:46 pm

Both Bourbon and Scotch is fermented open. Both is distilled with copper. Also potstilled Bourbon has the glue smell (Woodford Reserve). Also Rum has the glue smell. Rum also is fermented in a hot climate. The temperature at the end of fermentation when it has slown down depends on the outside temperature. And this is the moment when the infection starts.
The studies about the effect of copper on spirits write about sulfur compounds not esters.

For me a climate relation looks more plausible than something with the copper. Or both perhaps isn't very plausible.
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Re: Pure acids and ester production

Postby engunear » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:54 pm

Aren't most bourbons are produced in fractionating columns? is my memory so far off here? I thought they used a process closer to petroleum production, with continuous fractional distillation.

But also, the question about ethyl acetate is an artistic one as well, taking cuts to show it or not. We don't get to taste the heads.

From all my batches produced in summer and winter, in open and closed fermenters, I've never been free of ethyl acetate, except when I remove it.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.

Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
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Re: Pure acids and ester production

Postby der wo » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:19 am

engunear wrote:Aren't most bourbons are produced in fractionating columns? is my memory so far off here? I thought they used a process closer to petroleum production, with continuous fractional distillation. Yes. But almost all of them are made of copper. And there are some potstilled Bourbons too. They too have the glue smell.

But also, the question about ethyl acetate is an artistic one as well, taking cuts to show it or not. We don't get to taste the heads.

From all my batches produced in summer and winter, in open and closed fermenters, I've never been free of ethyl acetate, except when I remove it. My fores jar smells always a bit like glue. But if I would mix it to the hearts, it would be much less glue than a normal aged Bourbon
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Re: Pure acids and ester production

Postby raketemensch » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:16 pm

So, for the sulfuric acid...

I see it at .2n, .02n, and .12n -- which one are people using? I would imagine you'd want to keep it very low, would a few drops at .02n in a 13-gallon batch be enough?

I'm thinking of loading the boiler with wash, a bit of dunder and a couple of drops, then giving it a reeeeeally slow heat-up time.

It sounds like this might work better on a spirit run, but I am doing single runs through the flute. Maybe throw in a bit of feints as well? Maybe a few drops would be good long-term in the feints jar?
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Re: Pure acids and ester production

Postby Single Malt Yinzer » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:12 pm

The latest from Boston Apothecary:
https://www.bostonapothecary.com/german ... auer-1922/

The examination by concentrated Sulfuric acid by adding 4 cc concentrated Sulfuric acid to 10 cc of rum showed that this German rum still showed a clear aroma after 24 h, whereby it differs from artificial products and equals the real rum. Artificial essences could not be proven in any of the samples. The tastes and odor samples are the same as those of the previously tested samples, but the flavor was not quite as strong as in the previously tested sample.
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