Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

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Andrew_90
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Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Andrew_90 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:15 am

I see HETP bandied around a bit so I thought I would do some research not knowing what it was. Was rather disappointing, I had visions of 95% with my new CCVM with 6mm Raschig Rings, apparently my ignorance is inversely proportional to my expectation;

Using the calculator provided in one of the threads I learnt this.
my column is 50.8mm column internal diameter, 1030mm height and packed height with 6mm rings, RR of 1 and input of 1 200W.
HETP = 0.233 / Plates 5.4 / Purity 91.9%

I thought just add a little height, so I added 500mm to the column.
HETP = 0.233 / Plates 7.6 / Purity 93.9%

Not a great increase as we are are now at the point of diminishing returns.

The model does not allow for multiple media but If I increase the column by 500mm and pack that portion with SS wool, would that get me close to 95%.

I do understand that the model is simply a guide and not cast is stone.
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Demy » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:25 am

In the past I used a column of 1.5 ", less than 100cm long filled with stainless steel scrubber and I easily reaped 95% at the same pact to run very slowly. Now with 3" column and a height of 80cm I easily reach 94% with scrubber Inox .... in essence I'm telling you to try scrubbers and run slowly.

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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Setsumi » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:41 am

Andrew_90 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:15 am
I see HETP bandied around a bit so I thought I would do some research not knowing what it was. Was rather disappointing, I had visions of 95% with my new CCVM with 6mm Raschig Rings, apparently my ignorance is inversely proportional to my expectation;

Using the calculator provided in one of the threads I learnt this.
my column is 50.8mm column internal diameter, 1030mm height and packed height with 6mm rings, RR of 1 and input of 1 200W.
HETP = 0.233 / Plates 5.4 / Purity 91.9%

I thought just add a little height, so I added 500mm to the column.
HETP = 0.233 / Plates 7.6 / Purity 93.9%

Not a great increase as we are are now at the point of diminishing returns.

The model does not allow for multiple media but If I increase the column by 500mm and pack that portion with SS wool, would that get me close to 95%.

I do understand that the model is simply a guide and not cast is stone.
to squeeze the last bit out is difficult. that is why it is better to run low wines for neutral. other side is, it is just numbers. if your cuts are good and you run a neutral wash you will have good product. and then after a while neutral becomes boring... for me at least
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Setsumi » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:49 am

and if you realy want to be happy with your numbers, do not borrow a lab alcholmeter thad has a scale between 80-100%. then you will realy see where 95% sits.
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by StillerBoy » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 am

Instead of researching HETP, do some researching on what is vapor behavior management within a column, then you'll get to understand how to run any unit..

To achieve 95%, it is the balancing / dialing, of the management of power in relation to the packing and sizing used, with the correct amount of refluxing that a RC can provide..

A short (24") 1.5 column can produce 95% with the right combination.. but the right packing and sizing is required.. the killer is the take off rate to unbalance the refluxing..

What you are using will not give you what you are expecting, as evidence by the extra length added..

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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by bluefish_dist » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:14 am

You are learning what many of us have lived. It’s hard to make a true 190+ proof. Most rigs simply don’t have the height or correct packing to make and hold really high proof. I had good luck with stainless scrubbies, but it was critical how I packed them on larger columns to get good results.

I would also guess most people don’t have the Hydrometers required to accurately measure if it’s 190 or 190.2 or 189.5. Even a few deg of temperature change can lower the proof a few points. It really isn’t important for the home distiller to know. It is for commercial when making vodka.
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Tummydoc » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:32 am

200W is really quite low for a 2 inch column in reflux.

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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Andrew_90 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:39 am

Have I missed something? Does the calculator assume that the input is a 8 to 10% ABV.

I plan on stripping first and then running 38% ABV Low Wines through the CCVM, will this make a difference to the calculated numbers?
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Andrew_90 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:40 am

Tummydoc wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:32 am
200W is really quite low for a 2 inch column in reflux.
My post says 1200W as this was the number already in the calculator.
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Setsumi » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:38 am

Andrew_90 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:39 am
Have I missed something? Does the calculator assume that the input is a 8 to 10% ABV.

I plan on stripping first and then running 38% ABV Low Wines through the CCVM, will this make a difference to the calculated numbers?
it is a very long time ago i did any calcs for HETP and you may get different answers with low wine but i cannot comment. what i do know is if you charge low wines you will have more alch in the boiler and the good in that may be totally irrelevant to HEPT but it will give you a more stable run with better opportunity to make better cuts. and cuts i think for home likker is more important than 95%.
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Deplorable » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:02 am

With all due respect, I think you're at a point in the journey that it's time for less reading and more doing.
Make a big sugar wash of 8-10%. Strip it on your pot still, and start making some runs. You might just surprise yourself.
My 890mm of copper mesh packed column will get me 95% temp corrected abv. I didn't care what the calculator said. I just did it and found out what it would make. It surprised me. I didn't think I'd get above 92-93%
You've made a choice on your packing, and many here use it with success. Go get some runs behind you and figure out what it takes to get the best performance. You can use the same wash over again until you get it dialed in. Just pour it back in the boiler.
Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.

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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by OtisT » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am

As others have said, a person can get very close to 95% with only a meter of packing in a 2” column. In my experience it simply takes some fine tuning of heat input, reflux, and takeoff rate to get there. (Along with a well packed and insulated rig.) It takes experimenting, watching vapor temp while making adjustments to heat/reflux/takeoff to see where your sweet spot is.

One thing I learned doing these types of experiments on my own is that rings behave differently than mesh packing when making micro adjustments. When fractioning properly you are maintaining a temperature gradient up/down the column, and the more thermal mass you have the slower your system is to react to heat/reflux/takeoff changes. Your rings have a lot more thermal mass than mesh does, so any changes you make take more time to propagate through your system with rings than with mesh.

Best of luck to you,
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Deplorable » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:28 am

OtisT wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am
As others have said, a person can get very close to 95% with only a meter of packing in a 2” column. In my experience it simply takes some fine tuning of heat input, reflux, and takeoff rate to get there. (Along with a well packed and insulated rig.) It takes experimenting, watching vapor temp while making adjustments to heat/reflux/takeoff to see where your sweet spot is.

One thing I learned doing these types of experiments on my own is that rings behave differently than mesh packing when making micro adjustments. When fractioning properly you are maintaining a temperature gradient up/down the column, and the more thermal mass you have the slower your system is to react to heat/reflux/takeoff changes. Your rings have a lot more thermal mass than mesh does, so any changes you make take more time to propagate through your system with rings than with mesh.

Best of luck to you,
Otis
I had it dialed in pretty good on propane, even have marks on my regulator for heat inputs for my take off rates running a pot, and my CCVM. No I have to figure it out all over again for electric. Just part of the learning cycle I guess.
Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.

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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Durhommer » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:38 am

Deplorable wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:28 am
OtisT wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am
As others have said, a person can get very close to 95% with only a meter of packing in a 2” column. In my experience it simply takes some fine tuning of heat input, reflux, and takeoff rate to get there. (Along with a well packed and insulated rig.) It takes experimenting, watching vapor temp while making adjustments to heat/reflux/takeoff to see where your sweet spot is.

One thing I learned doing these types of experiments on my own is that rings behave differently than mesh packing when making micro adjustments. When fractioning properly you are maintaining a temperature gradient up/down the column, and the more thermal mass you have the slower your system is to react to heat/reflux/takeoff changes. Your rings have a lot more thermal mass than mesh does, so any changes you make take more time to propagate through your system with rings than with mesh.

Best of luck to you,
Otis
I had it dialed in pretty good on propane, even have marks on my regulator for heat inputs for my take off rates running a pot, and my CCVM. No I have to figure it out all over again for electric. Just part of the learning cycle I guess.
So you did switch to electric that's cool how do you like it over gas
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Deplorable » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:45 am

Durhommer wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:38 am
Deplorable wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:28 am
OtisT wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am
As others have said, a person can get very close to 95% with only a meter of packing in a 2” column. In my experience it simply takes some fine tuning of heat input, reflux, and takeoff rate to get there. (Along with a well packed and insulated rig.) It takes experimenting, watching vapor temp while making adjustments to heat/reflux/takeoff to see where your sweet spot is.

One thing I learned doing these types of experiments on my own is that rings behave differently than mesh packing when making micro adjustments. When fractioning properly you are maintaining a temperature gradient up/down the column, and the more thermal mass you have the slower your system is to react to heat/reflux/takeoff changes. Your rings have a lot more thermal mass than mesh does, so any changes you make take more time to propagate through your system with rings than with mesh.

Best of luck to you,
Otis
I had it dialed in pretty good on propane, even have marks on my regulator for heat inputs for my take off rates running a pot, and my CCVM. No I have to figure it out all over again for electric. Just part of the learning cycle I guess.
So you did switch to electric that's cool how do you like it over gas
I'll find out when I run this bourbon mash. All I've done so far with it is boil water for this mash. Heat up time was about the same as my gas burner.
Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.

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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Durhommer » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 am

Deplorable wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:45 am
Durhommer wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:38 am
Deplorable wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:28 am
OtisT wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am
As others have said, a person can get very close to 95% with only a meter of packing in a 2” column. In my experience it simply takes some fine tuning of heat input, reflux, and takeoff rate to get there. (Along with a well packed and insulated rig.) It takes experimenting, watching vapor temp while making adjustments to heat/reflux/takeoff to see where your sweet spot is.

One thing I learned doing these types of experiments on my own is that rings behave differently than mesh packing when making micro adjustments. When fractioning properly you are maintaining a temperature gradient up/down the column, and the more thermal mass you have the slower your system is to react to heat/reflux/takeoff changes. Your rings have a lot more thermal mass than mesh does, so any changes you make take more time to propagate through your system with rings than with mesh.

Best of luck to you,
Otis
I had it dialed in pretty good on propane, even have marks on my regulator for heat inputs for my take off rates running a pot, and my CCVM. No I have to figure it out all over again for electric. Just part of the learning cycle I guess.
So you did switch to electric that's cool how do you like it over gas
I'll find out when I run this bourbon mash. All I've done so far with it is boil water for this mash. Heat up time was about the same as my gas burner.
Good luck and a tip dont run too hard itll burn to your element then you're stuck scrubbing brown shit off of it ask how I know lol.
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Saltbush Bill » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:44 pm

Andrew_90 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:40 am
Tummydoc wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:32 am
200W is really quite low for a 2 inch column in reflux.
My post says 1200W as this was the number already in the calculator.
Even 1200w is extremely low .......a T500 reflux runs 2000+ and they are a very short 2 inch reflux.

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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Andrew_90 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 pm

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:44 pm
Andrew_90 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:40 am
Tummydoc wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:32 am
200W is really quite low for a 2 inch column in reflux.
My post says 1200W as this was the number already in the calculator.
Even 1200w is extremely low .......a T500 reflux runs 2000+ and they are a very short 2 inch reflux.
I am confusing everyone. The HETP calculator had a default value of 1200W and I left it there. Changing this value to 2700W had no effect on the ABV, dropped the plates from 5.4 to 5 and lifted the HETP from .233 to .260.

My current element comes in at 2 700W despite being labeled 3 000W. I was concerned that 2 700W may be insufficient to drive a 50l keg with a fully packed column, when in spirit run mode.
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Saltbush Bill » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:10 pm

Andrew_90 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 pm
I was concerned that 2 700W may be insufficient to drive a 50l keg with a fully packed column, when in spirit run mode.
2700w should run a 2 inch reflux still on a keg imo.

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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Andrew_90 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:16 pm

Thanks.
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by Setsumi » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 pm

Andrew_90 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 pm

My current element comes in at 2 700W despite being labeled 3 000W. I was concerned that 2 700W may be insufficient to drive a 50l keg with a fully packed column, when in spirit run mode.
sit with the same, 3kW element that only runs 2.7kW. my 4kW only makes 3.6kW.

but the 2.7kW should be more than enough. it is just slower on heatup.
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Re: Not knowing is a terrible thing - HETP shocker for me

Post by StillerBoy » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:00 am

Andrew_90 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 pm
My current element comes in at 2 700W despite being labeled 3 000W. I was concerned that 2 700W may be insufficient to drive a 50l keg with a fully packed column, when in spirit run mode.
As others have stated, you have more than enough power available.. unfortunately, the lack in understanding how to use the power seem to be the issue..

The two thread attached below should help with developing understand of such, as they relate to using power to manage the abv one is after.. it's all about understand what goes on within the column during refluxing, or understand vapor behavior and managing the behavior.. forget about the HETP.. focus on behavior with the packing used, and managing the take off rate..

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 17&t=82631

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 15&t=82591

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