Copper mesh in Liebig

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Andrew_90
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Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Andrew_90 »

I have been trawling but was unable to find the specific answer.

I plan on using my existing Liebig on my pot still but wish to make a new Liebig for my 2" CCVM column 3.5kW. Having never run the column, I am unfamiliar with the amount of knock down power one would require vs. say a 2" pot still.

What would be apparent from threads browsed so far, that a disruption in the water flow in a Liebig water jacket improves efficiency. The copper wire spiral on the distillate tube seems to do the trick but will possibly be a little impractical with my 28mm over 15mm Liebig? I would have a 5.7mm radial gap which may be too large to fill with copper wire.

Would copper mesh, reasonably tightly packed, into the water jacket be advantageous? I think there are two primary advantages over an unpacked water jacket. The first is that more copper surface will be presented to the cooling water as both the distillate tube and the outer tube of the water jacket will be thermally coupled. And secondly there may be disruption to the water flow? I have some doubts as the water will probably continue to percolate up the tube without the direction necessarily being altered. The water flow through my existing Liebig is very slow so there will be more of a slow rise up the tube rather than a rush of water,

Is it worth it? A 24 to 30" Liebig will have more than enough knock down power. At times I think we over design, is this such a case?

Lastly, for the same reasons above, would it we worth packing the distillate tube with copper mesh? Or would packing up the distillate tube be efficient?
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Andrew_90 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:33 pm What would be apparent from threads browsed so far, that a disruption in the water flow in a Liebig water jacket improves efficiency. The copper wire spiral on the distillate tube seems to do the trick
At most its a theory imo, once no one ever did the twisted wire thing ,,,instead they crimped the inner tube, this has two effects on the condenser , it disturbs the water flow in the cooling jacket to some degree, a bit like the twisted wire idea, but it also stops laminar flow of vapors in the inner tube of the condenser.
It amuses me to see how fads come and go in this hobby, once an idea becomes popular it spreads like wild fire regardless of it being necessary or not.
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NZChris
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by NZChris »

Heat rises. Creating a bit of turbulence in the water jacket doesn't seem to have much effect on that. Run your hand around your Liebig to learn what it is doing.

Building a spiral jacket with no clearance to maximize the speed of the coolant around the inner is a subject that has been discussed here if you search for it.

You only have to use every available trick if you want to build a small Liebig that is pushing the size limits for your desired heat input. I build oversize so that I don't have to worry about it.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Demy »

I report my experience. I built Liebig with spiral thread and without, I didn't notice a big difference at a practical level perhaps because I never carry my equipment at limit but I stay in the safe field. The important parameters in the liebig to be evaluated (in my opinion) are the lengthiness and management of the water you use to cool (including its temperature). The other "options" could help slightly but maybe not fundamental. In general, the reflux column in my opinion requires less refrigerant power in Liebig than compared to a pot-still or a stripping but the amount of water circulating (Liebig + reflux) maybe are similar.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Hambone »

+1 NZ Chris on oversizing the Liebig. Cheap and no hassle…
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Andrew_90 »

Thanks fellers.

I have a tendency to want all the bells buttons and whistles, as I get older I tend to go less with the fads. A plain Jane Liebig it will be.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by still_stirrin »

The “wire spiral” in the water jacket of a Liebig condenser simply adds additional heat conduction surface through which the heat (from the vapor tube) would conduct into the coolant (water). Since conduction is the “mode of heat transfer” through the solid medium, additional conduction surface acts as a “fin” in the liquid. Once the heat is absorbed into the coolant, convection disperses it allowing the heat to be transferred more homogeneously to the exchanger’s water outlet.

Somewhat counter-intuitively, the best heat transfer from a “fin” into the coolant is through laminar flow, not turbulent flow. The laminar flow allows the heat extraction in a stable manner rather than the chaotic transfer into the turbulent mixture. However, once the heat has been absorbed in the liquid, mixing the liquid into a homogeneous liquid flow is accomplished with a more turbulent flow. For this reason, a relatively slow water flow velocity is best (most efficient) at heat transfer.

Likewise, a “fin” or spiral inside the vapor tube also adds surface area into which the vapor’s heat would be transferred. As the vapor cools below its saturation temperature (after giving up enough of its heat), it will condense onto the conducting surface (vapor tube wall or fin surface). Small liquid molecules will join forming larger droplets and eventually you’ll get a drip, or stream of condensate at the outlet of the vapor tube (spout).

As noted, a Liebig will function without added fins or conducting surface material in the water jacket or vapor tube. The length of the vapor tube in contact with the coolant (water jacket) will affect the condenser’s efficiency. But the “dwell time” the vapor has in contact with the vapor tube also affects efficiency. So, a slow vapor speed, resulting from a larger diameter vapor tube or slower boil rate (less boiler input power) will improve heat transfer efficiency and less likelihood of “outrunning” the product condenser.

Stuffing copper scrubby or mesh into the vapor tube will significantly increase the conduction surface area. However, you must be careful not to increase the “back pressure” to the vapor flow which would increase the pressure build up in the boiler. That’s when things get dangerous.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by 8Ball »

My Clawhammer pot was designed with a 10 inch condenser. I added 24 inches to it. Never have a problem knocking down vapors.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Yummyrum »

I get an uneasy feeling when I think of things being stuffed in a liebig . Especially on those that will be used on stripping runs with grain in the boiler
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by shadylane »

I've experimented with stuffing copper mesh into the vapor tube.
It didn't work as planned, It decreased the liebigs ability to knock down vapor.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:49 pm I get an uneasy feeling when I think of things being stuffed in a liebig . Especially on those that will be used on stripping runs with grain in the boiler
Im with you on that one Yummy, its all ok as long as your running Low Wines or Sugar Washes that cant really cause a blockage, .......grain washes could easily puke and cause a blockage where any mesh is within the condenser.
That could easily end with KAAAAABOOOOOOM! and we don't need that.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Andrew_90 »

I hear you all. Nothing will go up the distillate tube.

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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Andrew_90 »

OK, so I have progressed to the point of readying my CCVM for operation. Tonight I was rinsing my 6mm Raschig Rings and a thought occurred to me.

A little bit of copper mesh up the spout seems to raise concern but this in my opinion pales into comparison when I look at the restriction the 6mm Raschig Rings will present up 1000mm of 2" column.

Are the two different in their effect on the possible buildup of pressure in the boiler?

Thoughts?
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Sporacle »

Basically the same rules would apply wherever the restriction could occur, be careful when distilling on the grain and be mindful of the restrictions created in the vapour path and how they could possibly get blocked. Plan out your distillation so you reduce the chance of anything going wrong, for example do I need to distill on the grain, can I strain my mash to remove any stray grains, is my ferment finished, can I add something to prevent puking, have I overfilled my boiler, what is the maximum power I am going to run and so on. :D
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Saltbush Bill »

In an ideal world you would strip first using a pot still , or strip using the CCVM without the rings, then run the low wines which shouldn't be a problem re blockages. Either way such problems should only be of concern when running all grains or other lumpy chunky type washes.
Others may have other opinions.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by shadylane »

Stuffing mesh in a liebig is counterproductive.
If it were a good idea. Engineers designing heat exchangers and condensers would be doing it.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by NZChris »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:49 pm I get an uneasy feeling when I think of things being stuffed in a liebig . Especially on those that will be used on stripping runs with grain in the boiler
I get the same feeling when I hear of inners being crimped. One piece of corn trapped in a crimp could make for a very bad day.
Last edited by NZChris on Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by shadylane »

Crimping is also counter productive.
Because it increases vapor speed.
Ya don't want turbulence.
Ya want a calm, cool, smooth surface and enough time for the vapor to condense.
If Ya want to stick something in a liebig to make it better.
Use a long thin cold finger. :wink:
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Really Chris ? ......a small crease in the wall of the inner tube is far less likely to cause ANY OBSTRUCTION than packing with mesh.....if you have "squashed" your inner tube to that extent then you need to use more common sense, that simple.
Going to have to agree to disagree on that Shady,
shadylane wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:52 pm Because it increases vapor speed.
It only increases the speed where the crimp is, if it does that at all, is the area of the inner where the crimp is, any less or much less than where the inner is not crimped? The inner tube usually elongates if you do it right, it doesn't shrink in area or overall size.
shadylane wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:52 pm Ya don't want turbulence.

Thats exactly what I want it to do, disturb the smooth flow of the water in the cooling jacket and the smooth flow of vapors in the inner tube.
Ive run both, I know which way I will continue to build Liebigs, but each to there own.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by NZChris »

It doesn't cost a lot more, or take up much more space or length, to build an adequate Liebig without crimping the inner. It isn't an idea that I came across before the internet was invented and I don't go along with everything I read on the internet.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Agreed , an extra foot of outer cooling jacket will probably achieve the same result. I just believe that crimping has worked for me to make the most of efficiency when overall length is of concern.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Andrew_90 »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm In an ideal world you would strip first using a pot still , or strip using the CCVM without the rings, then run the low wines which shouldn't be a problem re blockages. Either way such problems should only be of concern when running all grains or other lumpy chunky type washes.
Others may have other opinions.
So that that caveat, running low wines ...... that was the intention from the beginning. I feel more confident now.
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by shadylane »

Andrew_90 wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:57 am
So that that caveat, running low wines ...... that was the intention from the beginning. I feel more confident now.

99% of the time.
Stripping, then redistilling the low-wines is the best way. :thumbup:
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Re: Copper mesh in Liebig

Post by Dathhu »

Going back to the original post, 3.5kw seems like an awful lot of power to be put into a 2" column. Unless the column is very loosely packed, that thing is going to flood unless it's dialled down a bit.

Also, comparing a CCVM to a pot, to me the pot still is going to need more knock down power in the PC, due to not being able to run a CCVM as hard and the reflux coil helping to reduce some of the vapor before it even hits the PC.
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