Controlling Flow

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Controlling Flow

Post by Andrew_90 »

I saw a post which said that both the the RC and the PC flow rate should be controlled at the output. Why? I have seen the reason but my memory is not what is should be anymore.

The PC, if a Liebig, will have flow entering the lowest point and then filling up the tube until it overflows and exits. Controlling the input should have the same effect, the tube will remain full. The same applied to the RC.

Help me again please.
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by CopperFiend »

I feel like what they must have been saying is control the flow to achieve a specific temperature AT the outflow, not control the actual flow at the end. The valve needs to be between the water source and the condensers, not after or you're in for a serious mess whenever you want to start stilling.
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by Sporacle »

:D I've had this discussion before, personally I do the liebig on the input side, no real reason except for the pressure caused by the constriction of my needle valve. I figure this is best handled on cold hose clamped fittings as compared to the output side. Reflux on my CVVM is full flow let her run
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Re: Controlling Flow

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Andrew_90 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:01 pm I saw a post which said that both the the RC and the PC flow rate should be controlled at the output. Why? I have seen the reason but my memory is not what is should be anymore.

The PC, if a Liebig, will have flow entering the lowest point and then filling up the tube until it overflows and exits. Controlling the input should have the same effect, the tube will remain full. The same applied to the RC.

Help me again please.
You control flow rates in the RC to control product coming out of your PC. If you’re using a CM style reflux then depending on direction of flow you might not have the reflux chamber filled the entire time. Even if it is completely full you’re controlling how much cool water is replacing the hot water inside thus affecting your reflux. I use a smaller Liebig so I’m not too concerned about flow rates inside. The key is to look at your product takeoff rate and adjust your inputs (hot/cold) to meet your desired rate.
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by still_stirrin »

I use ball valves to control the water flow to both condensers, RC & PC. The valves are on the discharge side of the condensers, keeping the condensers at “line pressure” while the valves regulate the flow rate. This ensures that the water (under pressure) won’t have air bubbles in the lines or water jackets.

Of course, I always run the water “counter flow” to the vapor flow to make the heat exchange the most efficient with the greatest temperature differential. It’s just good thermodynamics practice.
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Re: Controlling Flow

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Thanks all.
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Re: Controlling Flow

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@still_stirrin

I have a dual helix RC. The means that no matter which side you connect it to, the flow will start at the top. The question would then be, do you want the cold water to enter the larger (outside coil) first or the inner smaller coil.

My intuition tells me the cold water must enter the larger coil as it has more knockdown power. Having said that, the outer walls will present friction to the condensate, added to which my RC is very close to the outside wall. This means that the flow may be concentrated more towards the middle of the 2" tube?

Here is what the plan view looks like. The tube is 6.25mm (.25"). (Obviously the vapor also moves around the spirals which are 5mm (.20") apart and the helix length is 250mm (10").

Image

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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by NormandieStill »

I gave a concrete example of why it's best to regulate on the inlet. I was running my control on the outlet of the liebig when the above happened.

I was next to the still and supervising so no harm no foul, but all the elements were present for a very exciting end to my day. Flame-heated still, zero coolant flow, mains pressure water spraying around.

Andrew_90: With regard to your dual helix, the outer coil will also help cool the tube, but I think the only way to know which works best is to test it.
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by still_stirrin »

The answer is simple, Andrew.

The surface area of the outer coil is significantly greater than the inner coil. So, considering the temperature difference between the hot vapors and the cold (or cool) coolant and the surface area of the copper through which the heat will be transferred, the outer coil will be significantly more effective at condensing the vapors than the inner coil. So, run the cold side into the outer coil and discharge from the inner coil.

Is that a “cold finger” you have in the bottom of the coils? If so, then it too should be on the “colder side” of the coolant flow for maximum effectiveness.

Finally, with 1/4” soft copper tubing as the condenser piping, you have a very small diameter ID. The water flow will be very restricted through the coils due to friction. So, you’ll need a lot of pressure to move the water and you’ll definitely have a limited flow rate potential.

If you’re going to try to use a pump for recirculation, you better get one that has a “high discharge head”. I don’t think a pond pump will work very well for you. Without enough “motive force” (water pressure), the knock down potential of the double coil condenser will be serverly restricted.

Good luck.
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by still_stirrin »

Oh, and another thing Andrew. Don’t forget to open a vent hole in the cap, so the condenser cavity and column is open to the atmosphere. You definitely don’t want a “closed chamber” that could build up pressure inside. Not safe.
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Re: Controlling Flow

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still_stirrin wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:50 am Oh, and another thing Andrew. Don’t forget to open a vent hole in the cap, so the condenser cavity and column is open to the atmosphere. You definitely don’t want a “closed chamber” that could build up pressure inside. Not safe.
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I hear ja but confused. The column is vented through the Liebig, is that not sufficient? A pot still has no vent holes and the Liebig is sufficient?
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Re: Controlling Flow

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still_stirrin wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:47 am Is that a “cold finger” you have in the bottom of the coils? If so, then it too should be on the “colder side” of the coolant flow for maximum effectiveness.
No cold finger, my friend who made the coil for me said it was simpler to make two independent coils and to braze them together. So it is in at the top down the outer coil and then back out through the inner coil and out at the top again.

The reason for 1/4" pipe was that everyone seemed to use it due to the ease of bending. Should I get a single helix made in 3/8" pipe and pack it with copper scrubbers?
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by still_stirrin »

A closed cap will keep hot vapors from rising into the RC section. So, you MUST put an atmospheric vent in the cap. Trust my words, it has proven to cause dangerous conditions and poor performance.

As for the size of soft tubing, 1/4” bends easier with less kinking, sure. But it has significantly more flow loss due to pressure drop, hence the significantly lower flow potential.

As a test, take a 10 foot length (3 m) of 1/4” soft tubing and measure the flow rate through it at a given line pressure (wall hydrant works). Measure how long it takes to fill a gallon (4 liters) with water. Then do the same test with 10 feet of 3/8” soft tubing, again at line pressure. The 3/8” tubing will fill the gallon jug 3 to 4 times faster.

Remember, “condensing power” is directly proportionally to the ability to remove heat. And that depends on 3 things: 1) mass flow rate of the coolant, 2) the temperature differences between the “hot fluid” (vapor), and 3) the surface area of the conducting tubing. While the 1/4” tubing offers a better surface area, especially given the “double coil”, the smaller ID imposes much more resistance to flow, creating greater pressure drop through the coils’ length. This will reduce the coolant flow rate substantially.

Understand?
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by tiramisu »

For the life of me, I do not understand why you would want to put the valve on the output end.
That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by Yummyrum »

I have valves on the output side of my Liebig and CM flute Deglagmator.
I don’t have mains water pressure but rather a sump pump in a tank .If I did , I might rethink it .

Andrew , Still_stirrin’s advise to put a vent hole in the cap is correct if you are going to use that condenser on a VM or LM ( boka) where there is the 100% possibility that the takeoff valve will be closed.

If you are going to use it on a CCVM , then its not required , but , I’d stick a hole in it anyway . Who knows, someone else may end up with it and use it in a LM or VM one day .

By the way , I have used 1/4” double wound coil in my VM /LM fir years .Even with the low pressure available from my sump pump , it has sufficient flow to condense more than enough power that I can give my column beforevit floods .
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Re: Controlling Flow

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tiramisu wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:47 am For the life of me, I do not understand why you would want to put the valve on the output end.
That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Take a course in fluid mechanics.

Pressure is a “motive force” to flow, just like voltage is the “motive force” to current. It requires a potential to cause the fluid, in this case, water to flow. That potential is the pressure difference from the line pressure (or pump discharge head) and the atmosphere, into which the water will flow, beit a reservoir or the drain, or even your lawn. Without a pressure difference, nothing will flow….except by gravity, as is the case in “open channel flow”.

If you throttle the inlet, then it causes a pressure loss at the valve (which restricts the flow). But, the flow itself will cause a pressure drop in the piping system, ie - through the condenser water jacket. The sum of the 2 pressure drops will consume much of the energy, the potential that causes a flow.

If you throttle the discharge side of the condenser, then the line pressure (motive force) will remain higher and the loss of pressure through the piping will help the flow remain more consistent and less likely to cavitate (when the static pressure drops below the vapor pressure for the liquid at its temperature).

Now, I’m simply suggesting it is best “hydraulically” to put the valve on the discharge side. And I have my valve hard piped on the discharge side. From the valve, I have a stainless braided hose that dispenses the hot water back to the drain. The braided hose protects the hose from rupturing due to the heat-softened vinyl.
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by tiramisu »

still_stirrin wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:10 pm
tiramisu wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:47 am For the life of me, I do not understand why you would want to put the valve on the output end.
That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Take a course in fluid mechanics.

Pressure is a “motive force” to flow, just like voltage is the “motive force” to current. It requires a potential to cause the fluid, in this case, water to flow. That potential is the pressure difference from the line pressure (or pump discharge head) and the atmosphere, into which the water will flow, beit a reservoir or the drain, or even your lawn. Without a pressure difference, nothing will flow….except by gravity, as is the case in “open channel flow”.

If you throttle the inlet, then it causes a pressure loss at the valve (which restricts the flow). But, the flow itself will cause a pressure drop in the piping system, ie - through the condenser water jacket. The sum of the 2 pressure drops will consume much of the energy, the potential that causes a flow.

If you throttle the discharge side of the condenser, then the line pressure (motive force) will remain higher and the loss of pressure through the piping will help the flow remain more consistent and less likely to cavitate (when the static pressure drops below the vapor pressure for the liquid at its temperature).


Now, I’m simply suggesting it is best “hydraulically” to put the valve on the discharge side. And I have my valve hard piped on the discharge side. From the valve, I have a stainless braided hose that dispenses the hot water back to the drain. The braided hose protects the hose from rupturing due to the heat-softened vinyl.
ss
That's some fine enginerding BUT when pushing water up the hill in a condenser having the tap on the outlet means if you have yourself an event you will have water pissing everywhere until you run to the main tap. The needle valve on inlet side in practice controls the flow of water just fine.
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by kimbodious »

I have clear PVC hose on the outlets of my condensers. I test the plumbing to the condensers whiIe the boiler is still warming up. Sometimes I notice the air in the shotgun condenser just won’t clear and there’s a constant flow of bubbles. The condenser would not operate properly in that condition. I fix this by restricting the flow on the output side until the increased pressure in the condenser purges all the air. If I had flow control on the plumbing for my condensers, I would put them on the output side for the reason given above.
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by NormandieStill »

Since swapping the valve from outlet to inlet I can report seeing no difference in performance. On a stripping run the water is pouring through more than fast enough to take any bubbles with it, and on a spirit run I have more than enough left-over capacity to handle any small bubbles reducing the efficiency.

But a moment of inattention or a slight pressure change doesn't cause my inlet hose to rupture, spraying me and my product with water.
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Re: Controlling Flow

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kimbodious wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:05 pm I have clear PVC hose on the outlets of my condensers. I test the plumbing to the condensers whiIe the boiler is still warming up. Sometimes I notice the air in the shotgun condenser just won’t clear and there’s a constant flow of bubbles. The condenser would not operate properly in that condition. I fix this by restricting the flow on the output side until the increased pressure in the condenser purges all the air. If I had flow control on the plumbing for my condensers, I would put them on the output side for the reason given above.
A few shakes relieves any bubbles in my shotgun during heat up.

Per convention, I place my valve on the discharge end. This is sound practice, as condensers are more efficient when run with pressure on the shell side. Calling this practice a 'recipe for disaster' more aptly applies to one who neglects to perform a pre-distillation safety check of his equipment/setup and doesn't understand the heat transfer principles involved.

Thank you for your input, s_s. Like always, I learned something from your post.
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Re: Controlling Flow

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still_stirrin wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:24 am A closed cap will keep hot vapors from rising into the RC section. So, you MUST put an atmospheric vent in the cap. Trust my words, it has proven to cause dangerous conditions and poor performance.
Ah that makes sense, the flow of vapours. The only reason for the cap was to prevent dust entering the column during storage. So at startup, if I raise the RC by 3/8" the entire column will be vented and the RC will still be in full reflux. The problem is to remember. I will make sure the the column is correctly vented. I may dispense with the cap and sew up a cover.

I still don't fully understand why a pot still is not dangerous and is only vented through the PC?
As for the size of soft tubing, 1/4” bends easier with less kinking, sure. But it has significantly more flow loss due to pressure drop, hence the significantly lower flow potential.

As a test, take a 10 foot length (3 m) of 1/4” soft tubing and measure the flow rate through it at a given line pressure (wall hydrant works). Measure how long it takes to fill a gallon (4 liters) with water. Then do the same test with 10 feet of 3/8” soft tubing, again at line pressure. The 3/8” tubing will fill the gallon jug 3 to 4 times faster.
Agreed, was just saying that based on the research I had done at that point the conventional wisdom appeared to be 1/4" and indeed commercially available units were also 1/4".

I think I will make a 3/8" condenser in the not too distant future.
Remember, “condensing power” is directly proportionally to the ability to remove heat. And that depends on 3 things: 1) mass flow rate of the coolant, 2) the temperature differences between the “hot fluid” (vapor), and 3) the surface area of the conducting tubing. While the 1/4” tubing offers a better surface area, especially given the “double coil”, the smaller ID imposes much more resistance to flow, creating greater pressure drop through the coils’ length. This will reduce the coolant flow rate substantially.
The plan was originally to always run the RC and the PC on mains water pressure, so I should be OK with the 1/4" RC. More recently my brother gave me a submersible pump as I am looking at recycling the water through a radiator and reservoir rather than wasting the water. I will definitely battle with the 1/4".
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Re: Controlling Flow

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Andrew_90 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:29 pm More recently my brother gave me a submersible pump as I am looking at recycling the water through a radiator and reservoir rather than wasting the water. I will definitely battle with the 1/4".
No you won’t . 1/4” reflux coils have been used in 2” columns with submersible pumps successfully for years .

Don’t worry
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Re: Controlling Flow

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Yummyrum wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:43 pm
Andrew_90 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:29 pm More recently my brother gave me a submersible pump as I am looking at recycling the water through a radiator and reservoir rather than wasting the water. I will definitely battle with the 1/4".
No you won’t . 1/4” reflux coils have been used in 2” columns with submersible pumps successfully for years .

Don’t worry
My experience with submersible pumps is with the smaller garden features pumps. They work but get one with a high watt rating and you need to prime the line, on my 1.6m packed column i had to prime the line before installing the condenser.

A better option is the solar geyser pumps.
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Re: Controlling Flow

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Andrew_90 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:29 pm I still don't fully understand why a pot still is not dangerous and is only vented through the PC?
Because its open to atmosphere at all times , no taps or valves that can be turned off to make it air tight or to pressurize the boiler.
In simplistic terms its a piece of copper pipe that is always open at both ends.
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Re: Controlling Flow

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OK I'm going to have crack here, I believe that Andrew is building a CCVM and possibly his confusion is based on the fact that he has been told to put a vent in the cap of his reflux condensor ( his cap is just to keep dust out )
In the CCVM that he is building if he were to totally cap his reflux condensor that effectively would be the same as a pot as he still has a single path of vapor travel through the T to the always open liebig condensor as I don't believe he has any valves in that vapor path
At least that's what I think the confusion is about, obviously if he were to change configuration then the correct venting is critical :D
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Re: Controlling Flow

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Correctamondo Sporacle :thumbup:

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Re: Controlling Flow

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Twisted Brick wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:45 pm Per convention, I place my valve on the discharge end. This is sound practice, as condensers are more efficient when run with pressure on the shell side. Calling this practice a 'recipe for disaster' more aptly applies to one who neglects to perform a pre-distillation safety check of his equipment/setup and doesn't understand the heat transfer principles involved.
Why? What are the thermal properties of the incompressible heat transfer fluid that make it more efficient under pressure?

The only thing that you can do to control the heat transfer rate, is adjust the flow rate. And you can do that on either the inlet or outlet. Water at 3 bar will not hold more energy than water at 1 bar.

It's a convention, sure, but I don't think that physics cares whether or not you follow that convention. On the other hand, throttlng the input creates a fail-safe (rather, "fail safer"... it's still dangerous) in that something that halts coolant flow will not cause a pressure spike inside the shell because it can vent to the exterior. In much the same way as the hole in the cap being discussed is a fail-safe to prevent a pressure build-up.

Edited to change the highlight colour. Lime green was unpleasant to look at!
Last edited by NormandieStill on Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by Andrew_90 »

Indeed Sporacle, I probably neglected to point out that is is a CCVM.

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Re: Controlling Flow

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NormandieStill wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:21 am Why? What are the thermal properties of the incompressible heat transfer fluid that make it more efficient under pressure?
The only thing that you can do to control the heat transfer rate, is adjust the flow rate. And you can do that on either the inlet or outlet. Water at 3 bar will not hold more energy than water at 1 bar.
Not that it applies much to hobby stills, but millions of automobiles rely on a radiator cap to increase/regulate the pressure of a cars cooling system to raise its boiling point every day, Jus Sayin 8)

Simple solution is to add a ball valve on the input if saftey is the concern

I have bleeds with clear tubing on all my condenser outputs to manage/remove bubbles
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Re: Controlling Flow

Post by Sporacle »

Andrew_90 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:22 am Indeed Sporacle, I probably neglected to point out that is is a CCVM.

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