5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

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disturbinglymellow
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5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

Ok so I have recently acquired an LM/VM combo still that has not been run in several years. There is not a ton of build up in the copper, but could definitely use a good clean and sac run just so I can get a feel for the op of this still.

My question: is there any problem with making a boiler charge of 5-5-1 and doing a "run" with it to clean and scour the still? My boiler charge is about 10 gal, and if I were to soak everything separately I would need upwards of double that for a soak.

Also, because 5-5-1 is so acidic, would there still be a need for a vinegar run afterwards? I do intend to do a sac run to finalize the cleaning process as well as get an initial "feel" for the still with an actual alcohol run, but am curious if there is any downside to "running" the 5-5-1 solution?

TIA for your valuable input!

EDIT: Finally got the TT ad removed, apologies!
Last edited by disturbinglymellow on Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by NZChris »

I have no idea what 5-5-1 is, or if the acids in it are volatile enough to do the job.

To get rid of verdigris, I block an end and fill with a hot citric acid/lemon juice solution for ten or twenty minutes, flush and rinse.

A sacrificial run is to remove flux and machine oils from a new build or modification, so is probably not necessary.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by Sporacle »

NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:29 pm I have no idea what 5-5-1 is, or if the acids in it are volatile enough to do the job.
It's a method of cleaning made popular by a certain fellow on YouTube :lol:
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by still_stirrin »

According to (George) Duncan, 551 is:
500 ml water
50 ml hydrogen peroxide
1 ounce (powdered) citric acid.

Mixed together in a jar and used as a soaking solution.

I’ve never tried it so I can’t vouch for it. I’ve always been successful with our cleaning protocol.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by NZChris »

Ha ha. He's just a newbie pretending he's done some research.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:59 pm Ha ha. He's just a newbie pretending he's done some research.
Newbie, yes, guilty as charged. However "pretending" I've done some research, not so much. I have done tons of reading on here as well as other forums. Nowhere, had I seen my specific question answered hence why I asked it. As far as my using the term "5-5-1" I had seen it enough that I thought it was fairly common knowledge in the home distilling community. I'm not pretending about anything, just trying to learn like everyone else.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by Dancing4dan »

disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:07 am
NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:59 pm Ha ha. He's just a newbie pretending he's done some research.
Newbie, yes, guilty as charged. However "pretending" I've done some research, not so much. I have done tons of reading on here as well as other forums. Nowhere, had I seen my specific question answered hence why I asked it. As far as my using the term "5-5-1" I had seen it enough that I thought it was fairly common knowledge in the home distilling community. I'm not pretending about anything, just trying to learn like everyone else.
Lol. I think he was actually referring to George! Not you.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

Dancing4dan wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:11 am
disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:07 am
NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:59 pm Ha ha. He's just a newbie pretending he's done some research.
Newbie, yes, guilty as charged. However "pretending" I've done some research, not so much. I have done tons of reading on here as well as other forums. Nowhere, had I seen my specific question answered hence why I asked it. As far as my using the term "5-5-1" I had seen it enough that I thought it was fairly common knowledge in the home distilling community. I'm not pretending about anything, just trying to learn like everyone else.
Lol. I think he was actually referring to George! Not you.
Haha, I hope so! I've been trying to learn and absorb everything I possibly can.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by cob »

Dancing4dan wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:11 am
disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:07 am
NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:59 pm Ha ha. He's just a newbie pretending he's done some research.
Newbie, yes, guilty as charged. However "pretending" I've done some research, not so much. I have done tons of reading on here as well as other forums. Nowhere, had I seen my specific question answered hence why I asked it. As far as my using the term "5-5-1" I had seen it enough that I thought it was fairly common knowledge in the home distilling community. I'm not pretending about anything, just trying to learn like everyone else.
Lol. I think he was actually referring to George! Not you.
DM put george in the search bar and research the general consensus of the value of georges advice.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

cob wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:42 am
Dancing4dan wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:11 am
disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:07 am
NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:59 pm Ha ha. He's just a newbie pretending he's done some research.
Newbie, yes, guilty as charged. However "pretending" I've done some research, not so much. I have done tons of reading on here as well as other forums. Nowhere, had I seen my specific question answered hence why I asked it. As far as my using the term "5-5-1" I had seen it enough that I thought it was fairly common knowledge in the home distilling community. I'm not pretending about anything, just trying to learn like everyone else.
Lol. I think he was actually referring to George! Not you.
DM put george in the search bar and research the general consensus of the value of georges advice.
In all fairness, I never said or claimed that ANYONE said to "run" the solution through the still. I was simply asking the collective if it was possible, beneficial, or advisable. Even as new as I am, even I have cocked my head to the side like a dog at some of the things said on 'his' channel. Firm believer in trust but verify. If I cannot get a consenus from multiple sources, then I do not proceed unless it is with extreme caution and calculated risk. That being said, the spirit of my question was an effort in saving time and potentially some money. Instead it seems to have devolved into topic of discussing the source of the described mixture. My apologies for bringing up what appears to be a touchy subject.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by NZChris »

disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:07 am
NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:59 pm Ha ha. He's just a newbie pretending he's done some research.
Newbie, yes, guilty as charged. However "pretending" I've done some research, not so much. I have done tons of reading on here as well as other forums. Nowhere, had I seen my specific question answered hence why I asked it. As far as my using the term "5-5-1" I had seen it enough that I thought it was fairly common knowledge in the home distilling community. I'm not pretending about anything, just trying to learn like everyone else.
I was referring to George, not you.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

NZChris wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:30 am
disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:07 am
NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:59 pm Ha ha. He's just a newbie pretending he's done some research.
Newbie, yes, guilty as charged. However "pretending" I've done some research, not so much. I have done tons of reading on here as well as other forums. Nowhere, had I seen my specific question answered hence why I asked it. As far as my using the term "5-5-1" I had seen it enough that I thought it was fairly common knowledge in the home distilling community. I'm not pretending about anything, just trying to learn like everyone else.
I was referring to George, not you.
Roger that, thank you for the clarification!
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by NZChris »

You may have to clear your head of the rubbish he put in it. On this forum, it's not permitted to link to his website, or his Youtubes.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by Stonecutter »

Sporacle wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:22 pm It's a method of cleaning made popular by a certain fellow on YouTube :lol:
Geeze Sporacle, see what you started :sarcasm:

disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:59 am
cob wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:42 am
Dancing4dan wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:11 am
disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:07 am

Newbie, yes, guilty as charged. However "pretending" I've done some research, not so much. I have done tons of reading on here as well as other forums. Nowhere, had I seen my specific question answered hence why I asked it. As far as my using the term "5-5-1" I had seen it enough that I thought it was fairly common knowledge in the home distilling community. I'm not pretending about anything, just trying to learn like everyone else.
Lol. I think he was actually referring to George! Not you.
DM put george in the search bar and research the general consensus of the value of georges advice.
In all fairness, I never said or claimed that ANYONE said to "run" the solution through the still. I was simply asking the collective if it was possible, beneficial, or advisable. Even as new as I am, even I have cocked my head to the side like a dog at some of the things said on 'his' channel. Firm believer in trust but verify. If I cannot get a consenus from multiple sources, then I do not proceed unless it is with extreme caution and calculated risk. That being said, the spirit of my question was an effort in saving time and potentially some money. Instead it seems to have devolved into topic of discussing the source of the described mixture. My apologies for bringing up what appears to be a touchy subject.
Haha, you’re good friend. This is just regular banter from the forum. You’re part of a big ol’ family now. :thumbup: personally I wouldn’t want to run hydrogen peroxide in my rig. I don’t have any clue what would happen as far as chemical changes and lingering effects. This is definitely the place to ask. Hopefully you or someone else will offer up some scientific answers and enlighten us all. IMO vinegar and water is cheap and easy so I’ve never seen any point in deferring from that protocol.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by NZChris »

According to Google, the boiling point of citric acid is 590F, so I doubt running some in the boiler would take off verdigris in your column.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

NZChris wrote:According to Google, the boiling point of citric acid is 590F, so I doubt running some in the boiler would take off verdigris in your column.
Excellent point. With only 2kw available right now, not sure I could get it that hot anyway.

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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

NZChris wrote:You may have to clear your head of the rubbish he put in it. On this forum, it's not permitted to link to his website, or his Youtubes.
I prefer not to link anywhere honestly. Unless of course I am asked specifically to do so.

- disturbinglymellow

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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

Stonecutter wrote:
Sporacle wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:22 pm It's a method of cleaning made popular by a certain fellow on YouTube [emoji38]
Geeze Sporacle, see what you started :sarcasm:

disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:59 am
cob wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:42 am
Dancing4dan wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:11 am Lol. I think he was actually referring to George! Not you.
DM put george in the search bar and research the general consensus of the value of georges advice.
In all fairness, I never said or claimed that ANYONE said to "run" the solution through the still. I was simply asking the collective if it was possible, beneficial, or advisable. Even as new as I am, even I have cocked my head to the side like a dog at some of the things said on 'his' channel. Firm believer in trust but verify. If I cannot get a consenus from multiple sources, then I do not proceed unless it is with extreme caution and calculated risk. That being said, the spirit of my question was an effort in saving time and potentially some money. Instead it seems to have devolved into topic of discussing the source of the described mixture. My apologies for bringing up what appears to be a touchy subject.
Haha, you’re good friend. This is just regular banter from the forum. You’re part of a big ol’ family now. [emoji106] personally I wouldn’t want to run hydrogen peroxide in my rig. I don’t have any clue what would happen as far as chemical changes and lingering effects. This is definitely the place to ask. Hopefully you or someone else will offer up some scientific answers and enlighten us all. IMO vinegar and water is cheap and easy so I’ve never seen any point in deferring from that protocol.
Haha thanks stone. Was starting to worry I kicked a hornet nest for a minute there.

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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by NZChris »

What I'm saying is that his reputation is so poor that if you click on The Rules By Which We Live at the bottom of the page and read Rule L, you will find him listed there.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

NZChris wrote:What I'm saying is that his reputation is so poor that if you click on The Rules By Which We Live at the bottom of the page and read Rule L, you will find him listed there.
Roger that. I had read that thread before. Perhaps a refresher is in order.

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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by Sporacle »

disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:50 pm Roger that. I had read that thread before. Perhaps a refresher is in order.
Mellow, it's a really weird learning experience when you get here. I came from Turbo and a tiny Still Spirits Reflux, watched all of his videos. Built a PID thinking I could control the boiling point of my wash. Once you understand what parts of your knowledge base are wrong or need adjusting, the distilling process becomes much easier.
Good luck
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by NZChris »

disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:50 pm
NZChris wrote:What I'm saying is that his reputation is so poor that if you click on The Rules By Which We Live at the bottom of the page and read Rule L, you will find him listed there.
Roger that. I had read that thread before. Perhaps a refresher is in order.

- disturbinglymellow
I'm not a policeman and I'm not trying to remind you of the forum rules, I'm referring to the quality of the advice and resources etc., that is available on the internet nowadays. When I started, there wasn't an internet full of newbies and Youtubers to get info from. I had to spend hours in a university library doing research. Even back then, I had to make sure that the authors did know their subjects before including their ideas into my research and fermenting & distilling protocols.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

NZChris wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:07 pm
disturbinglymellow wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:50 pm
NZChris wrote:What I'm saying is that his reputation is so poor that if you click on The Rules By Which We Live at the bottom of the page and read Rule L, you will find him listed there.
Roger that. I had read that thread before. Perhaps a refresher is in order.

- disturbinglymellow
I'm not a policeman and I'm not trying to remind you of the forum rules, I'm referring to the quality of the advice and resources etc., that is available on the internet nowadays. When I started, there wasn't an internet full of newbies and Youtubers to get info from. I had to spend hours in a university library doing research. Even back then, I had to make sure that the authors did know their subjects before including their ideas into my research and fermenting & distilling protocols.
All good, friend. Your points are extremely valid and duly noted for sure.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

So, after y'alls advice as well as further research, I DID NOT run the solution through my still. What I ended up doing was mixing up a citric acid solution and hand scrubbed the blue/green areas that I could see. Wasn't a lot, but after my experience with my Vevor still, I knew that if I could see it, at least my foreshots and some of my heads would come out blue on the next run. So I got that taken care of, then rinsed everything really well. I filled the boiler with a charge of plain ol water and fired her up. Got everything assembled, tested my cooling etc. Brought her up to temp (10gal charge of water, 2kw 110 element took almost 2 hrs to come to a boil). With all cooling off I let steam blow out the top of the LM head for about 30 min. Then I turned on the cooling to just the head to try to knock down the steam and found very quickly that there was not enough knock down power to prevent the steam from escaping the top of the head. (Really hoping this will not be an issue with an alcohol run.) I made a makeshift cap to cap off the LM head after ensuring that my VM valve was wide open. I continued to run untill I had a good plume of steam out of the end of my condenser. I then let this run another 30 min or so. At this point I cracked the cooling to the condenser open just enough to knock down the steam and achieve a somewhat steady stream of distilled water out the end. I collected about 100ml of this and smelled and tasted. While there was no dissernable 'nastyness' there was a very potentent metalic taste and smell. So I killed the condenser coolant and ran another 15-20 min of straight steam. Cleaned out my collection jar and then turned cooling back on to collect another 100 ml. The metalic smell and taste did improve some, but was still fairly obvious. Is this something that will improve with my sac run and subsequent strip/spirit runs? My plan is to mash in a 50gal sweet feed run, then strip to low wines and ultimately take a spirit run from the low wines. My sac run (if still required) will be a 10gal BW wash. My "if still required" comment is due to multiple sources saying that a sac run is really only needed for new construction/modification where there is a need to remove oils and flux and what not. Is this accurate?
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by still_stirrin »

disturbinglymellow wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:48 am The metalic smell and taste did improve some, but was still fairly obvious. Is this something that will improve with my sac run and subsequent strip/spirit runs?
Yes, the sacrificial distillation run will further clean (and prepare) your stillhead and boiler for a consumable product.
disturbinglymellow wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:48 am My plan is to mash in a 50gal sweet feed run, then strip to low wines and ultimately take a spirit run from the low wines. <— OK, that’ll work. But a simpler wash might be prudent for your first production run simply because it will be easier to decipher the cuts.

My sac run (if still required) will be a 10gal BW wash. My "if still required" comment is due to multiple sources saying that a sac run is really only needed for new construction/modification where there is a need to remove oils and flux and what not. Is this accurate?
Since you’ve noted some “metallic” quality to the steam run, you should follow through with the full cleaning protocol, including a 50/50 vinegar/water run followed up with a sacrificial alcohol run. Plan for enough wash in both cases to run the boiler for at least an hour, preferably longer, to give it a thorough cleaning. When you get to your production run, you’ll be glad you were diligent with the cleaning runs.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by Demy »

Still_stirrin is right, vinegar and then a sacrificial run. Where you get to clean with your hands is the best possible way, where your hands don't reach the "HD protocol"
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

still_stirrin wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:23 pm
disturbinglymellow wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:48 am My plan is to mash in a 50gal sweet feed run, then strip to low wines and ultimately take a spirit run from the low wines. <— OK, that’ll work. But a simpler wash might be prudent for your first production run simply because it will be easier to decipher the cuts. <- Do you say this because you are not sure that I have run this particular mash before, or because I have not run this mash through this still?
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by still_stirrin »

disturbinglymellow wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:48 amMy plan is to mash in a 50gal sweet feed run, then strip to low wines and ultimately take a spirit run from the low wines.
OK, that’ll work. But a simpler wash might be prudent for your first production run simply because it will be easier to decipher the cuts.
disturbinglymellow wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:56 amDo you say this because you are not sure that I have run this particular mash before, or because I have not run this mash through this still?
Well, maybe both.

Your original post highlighted your inexperience (referencing the 551 cleaning question and YouTube as your knowledgebase). You pointed out that you’ve acquired a LM/VM reflux still (new to you) and asked about operations, including running preparation. So, I concluded that you don’t have a lot of experience running the LM/VM. And considering that the UJSSM would be better run through a potstill than a reflux column, again I concluded your inexperience.

Hence, my recommendation for a simple sugar wash to get more familiar with your still and the product you’ll get from a LM/VM.

You’re new to this website and when you’ve been here a while and read the dialog for some time, you’ll begin to understand the type of recommendations that come from the experience of the membership. Often new members ask questions because they don’t “know” better. With time, these questions will become apparent even without asking the question … because it’s been asked and answered many times already. Asking is OK, but in time, you won’t have to.
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Re: 5-5-1 in Lieu of Vinegar Run

Post by disturbinglymellow »

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:31 am
Well, maybe both.

Your original post highlighted your inexperience (referencing the 551 cleaning question and YouTube as your knowledgebase). You pointed out that you’ve acquired a LM/VM reflux still (new to you) and asked about operations, including running preparation. So, I concluded that you don’t have a lot of experience running the LM/VM. And considering that the UJSSM would be better run through a potstill than a reflux column, again I concluded your inexperience.

Hence, my recommendation for a simple sugar wash to get more familiar with your still and the product you’ll get from a LM/VM.

You’re new to this website and when you’ve been here a while and read the dialog for some time, you’ll begin to understand the type of recommendations that come from the experience of the membership. Often new members ask questions because they don’t “know” better. With time, these questions will become apparent even without asking the question … because it’s been asked and answered many times already. Asking is OK, but in time, you won’t have to.
ss
SS your response is 100% accurate based on the information that I provided in my original post (and subsequent responses). I am usually far more detailed when requesting assistance so the lack of information provided is totally on me for sure. You are only able to respond to the information you are provided and I completely understand that. To fill in some gaps and provide you with a more complete picture, here goes.

I do have 4 generations of sweet feed mash under my belt which I execute similar to the UJSSM. I was doing this on my cheap Vevor still previously so as you can imagine, each batch was far smaller than the 50gal I plan to mash in for this still (Only 10 gal at a time, strip 8 gal, then spirit run with low wines, using backset from stripping runs to start next generation). The opportunity to acquire this LM/VM still truly fell in my lap, however at least for now, I have no intention of using it as an LM or VM still. The VM valve will be left wide open and the LM head capped so that it operates as close to a pot still as I can get it. I had toyed with the idea of attempting to use the LM head, but since the RC that came with the still was not able to knock down 2kw of water steam, I figured my safest bet for now would be to just use it in pot still mode until I can get the funds to rework the RC. (Yes, I know I can reduce heat and that based on research, an actual run will not behave the same as an all water or a water/vinegar run from a knock down stand point so I may give the LM another shot as is after I build back up my stock.) I actually have a design for this in mind, but that is a topic for another area of the forum.

Yes, in hindsight, the 5-5-1 question was a bit foolish to ask. I never once thought about doing this on my Vevor still, so it is beyond me why it popped in my head to try it on this one.

Please understand, I am not trying to say that I am some seasoned veteran as I definitely know I am not. Despite my brain fart in asking an obviously novice question, I have done a ton of research (and not just on YouTube lol). I think the excitement of the new rig got the better of me. The only saving grace IMHO, is that I stopped long enough to ask instead of potentially damaging my 'new to me' stetup. I am proceding with the remainder of the protocol. I will be doing the vinegar/water run and subsequently a basic sugar wash to complete the cleaning before getting my regularly scheduled mash going.
Vevor 9.6 gal, 3 pot still (don't use the slobber box) converted to electric. More modifications to go.
Keg Boiler, 2kw electric, 3" column, LM/VM Head
Still learnin
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