Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Distillation methods and improvements.

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rad14701
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Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by rad14701 » Sat May 09, 2009 9:59 am

I just finished generating new Distillation Strength charts from the Distillation Theory section of the parent site based on the formulas provided by Tony Ackland on the Calculations page... They are provided here in both Celsius and Fahrenheit scales... I have also posted them in PDF format... There may be other copies of these kicking around... Hope folks find them helpful...
Chart in Fahrenheit Temperatures
Chart in Fahrenheit Temperatures
dtacr_f.jpg (62.12 KiB) Viewed 30478 times
Chart in Celsius Temperatures
Chart in Celsius Temperatures
dtacr_c.jpg (51.08 KiB) Viewed 30478 times
Attachments
vapor_chart_c.pdf
New PDF Chart in Celsius Temperatures - uploaded 2011-09-19
(60.45 KiB) Downloaded 2489 times
vapor_chart_f.pdf
New PDF Chart in Fahrenheit Temperatures - uploaded 2011-09-19
(60.05 KiB) Downloaded 1695 times
Last edited by rad14701 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:50 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Reason: New PDF's Added

nh_yankee
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by nh_yankee » Sat May 09, 2009 10:09 am

Thank you!

cannonman
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by cannonman » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:12 pm

So much to learn. Every day I think I find something new. Thanks everyone. Keep it coming.

Usge
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Usge » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:35 pm

Thanks Rad

rad14701
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by rad14701 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:41 pm

I have updated the original post to include the charts in PDF format...

Samohon
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Samohon » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:57 pm

Thanks Rad, I'd probably stick em into the Diagrams and Drawings thread over on the R&T board also, very useful man... :D
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grunthor777
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by grunthor777 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:43 am

Is this saying: running my still at a constant 79 degrees C will result in an 85% distillate, whereas a constant temp of 78 degrees C will result in a 95% distillate?

Dnderhead
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Dnderhead » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:14 am

you dont govern the temperature that it boils at.the amount of alcohol in wash does.
same with the vapor,the amount of alcohol in the vapor determines its temperature .
say you have a pot still (temp.variations show up more) and you have a 10% wash and
you hold it at 78c as your trying to git 95% it wont boil.so you will git little /no product.
10% wash wont boil until 93.10,then you will git18% "vapors".(this is right off still, no reflux)

now with a reflux still, boiler temps will be same as a pot still, but as it proceeds up the column
the water is refluxed out. so with a 10% mash it will still boil at 93.10. but at top of column it mite
be 78c because hopefully most of the water has been removed. this will depend on the amount of reflux.

many of the "big boys" use adjustable stills ,with these the amount of reflux can be adjusted.so they add/remove
"plates" to adjust to the percent they want.so by knowing that if starting with a 10% wash and want 75% product
they will need ? plates. this way they only need to run once.

squidd
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by squidd » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:21 pm

Dnderhead wrote:

.....10% wash wont boil until 93.10,then you will git18% "vapors".(this is right off still, no reflux).....
Would'nt it be 53-54 % ?

squidd

grunthor777
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by grunthor777 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:20 am

Dnderhead wrote:you dont govern the temperature that it boils at.the amount of alcohol in wash does.
same with the vapor,the amount of alcohol in the vapor determines its temperature .
say you have a pot still (temp.variations show up more) and you have a 10% wash and
you hold it at 78c as your trying to git 95% it wont boil.so you will git little /no product.
10% wash wont boil until 93.10,then you will git18% "vapors".(this is right off still, no reflux).
Sorry, I was referring to the Column temperature in my off set head LM reflux still. Your answer helped me understand that i need more packing to lower that temperature. So basically, if I can add enough packing to reduce my column head temp. I can increase my off take rate.

Dnderhead
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Dnderhead » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:56 am

"Would'nt it be 53-54 % ?"
what I have it the accrual vapor % not the vapor distillate off the still.

schmand
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by schmand » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:50 am

Ahaha, took me 2 hours to create one, too, and then I read you already did one :D :?

Anyways, here's mine: Updated Version (a bit easier to read and smaller :) ):
Last edited by schmand on Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:41 am, edited 3 times in total.
Non-Native English Speaker. I'd appreciate if you would tell me my mistakes! Thank you and have a nice day!


pcedtech
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by pcedtech » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:46 am

Okay i have been studying these charts and think i understand. But the premise of these is based on a 10% wash. How do the charts differ if a 12%, 14%, 18%? It seems like i get more hearts from a reflux run if the wash is 18% then 10% but my temp seems to creep up a bit in to the 80 degree range versus the 78.2 range. I want to try and figure some maximums and some efficiencies.

rad14701
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by rad14701 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:34 am

pcedtech wrote:Okay i have been studying these charts and think i understand. But the premise of these is based on a 10% wash. How do the charts differ if a 12%, 14%, 18%? It seems like i get more hearts from a reflux run if the wash is 18% then 10% but my temp seems to creep up a bit in to the 80 degree range versus the 78.2 range. I want to try and figure some maximums and some efficiencies.
Are you running a pot still or a reflux column...??? A pot still will always creep up from the time output starts until you shut down... A reflux column will only creep up as the alcohol in the wash depletes and not enough reflux can be maintained to keep the output at purity, either due to inefficiency of the still, operational techniques, or there's simply not enough alcohol left in the wash...

The charts are not based on 10%, they work with ANY percentage... There are several ways to use the charts... If you know the %ABV of your wash you can determine the boiling temperature as well as the vapor temperature... Or at a given vapor temperature you can determine the wash temperature and the %ABV of the wash remaining in the wash...

Let's say that for some reason you are running a thermometer in the vapor path of a pot still... You heat an unknown %ABV wash until it starts producing vapor and the temperature begins to rise rapidly... At some point the temperature will stabilize, but only for a few minutes as the temperature will continue to rise as alcohol is removed... Let's assume that this temperature initially stabilizes at 196F... By finding where the 196F line meets the blue line and running down to the %ABV at the bottom you will see that the wash contains 14% alcohol... Now continue over to the red line and follow down from there and you will see that the %ABV of the vapor, as well as the spirits collected, will be ~61% ABV... Or you can calculate that a 6% ABV wash will not reach a stabilized vapor temperature until 204F and will be producing 40% ABV spirits at that moment in time...

For a reflux column you can determine the %ABV of your spirits by simply running down from where the temperature line meets the red line... A vapor temperature of 174F is ~90% ABV or 180 proof... 180F is ~80% ABV or 160 proof... However, for a reflux column you cannot do a reverse lookup to determine the %ABV of the wash based on column vapor temperature... You would need to measure the vapor temperature in the boiler, or the wash temperature, in order to determine how much alcohol is left in the boiler, taking into account the amount of liquid spirits already removed... This measurement isn't of all that much help when running a reflux column but if you consistently run the same wash recipe it might help indicate when you are getting close to the tails...

The charts are very versatile once you become familiar with them, but they should only be used as a reference of approximation... They are not to be relied on as being 100% accurate due to the number of variables involved in the distillation process...

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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by pcedtech » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:37 am

Okay that makes more sense to me. i seem to be able to have more 40% spirits with a higher persent wash. If i was just doing a straight sugar wash these numbers are consistant. I am using a 3" reflux with copper packing. I am just trying to maximize output which in turn lowers cost per 5th of 40% product. Would love to understand more about a thumper, but i think i just have to build one to try it out. With a sugar wash i dont want any of the original flavor but with a grain wash I would want that flavor to come through in the tails et maintain the highest percent of collection to lower the cost per 5th. You guys have done a lot of great work on testing with facts and figures. It will take me awhile to comprehend some of this; but it will come sooner or later. Thanks for the help...

stilly_bugger
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by stilly_bugger » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:47 pm

rad14701 wrote:Let's say that for some reason you are running a thermometer in the vapor path of a pot still... You heat an unknown %ABV wash until it starts producing vapor and the temperature begins to rise rapidly... At some point the temperature will stabilize, but only for a few minutes as the temperature will continue to rise as alcohol is removed... Let's assume that this temperature initially stabilizes at 196F... By finding where the 196F line meets the blue line and running down to the %ABV at the bottom you will see that the wash contains 14% alcohol... Now continue over to the red line and follow down from there and you will see that the %ABV of the vapor, as well as the spirits collected, will be ~61% ABV... Or you can calculate that a 6% ABV wash will not reach a stabilized vapor temperature until 204F and will be producing 40% ABV spirits at that moment in time...
That is a great explanation of how to read and use the charts.

I have one question. Say I'm running a low wines of 40% ABV in a pot still. Is it correct to read these charts as telling me that:
  • the wash will boil at 84C (blue line);
  • the vapour and condensate produced while the vapour temp remains at 84C will be ~77.5% ABV (red line); but,
  • as the vapour temp rises throughout the run the %ABV of the condensate produced will "follow the red line uphill" until the vapour is 100C and contains 0% ABV?
:think:

rad14701
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by rad14701 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:34 am

stilly_bugger wrote:<SNIP>

That is a great explanation of how to read and use the charts.

I have one question. Say I'm running a low wines of 40% ABV in a pot still. Is it correct to read these charts as telling me that:
  • the wash will boil at 84C (blue line);
  • the vapour and condensate produced while the vapour temp remains at 84C will be ~77.5% ABV (red line); but,
  • as the vapour temp rises throughout the run the %ABV of the condensate produced will "follow the red line uphill" until the vapour is 100C and contains 0% ABV?
:think:
Yes... However, for all intents and purposes you really only need to measure the vapor temperature and read backwards for the wash... I've run a pot still using a thermometer to verify the charts but only for vapor, not boiler charge... And I can assure you that the charts are fairly accurate and they, more than any other measurements, are what have proven that several of my washes have finished well above 14% due to accidental mis-measurements of ingredients...

For the record, I am far more likely to make mistakes during wash preparation than during distillation because I sometimes try to bang out a wash within a narrow window of opportunity whereas I always set aside enough time for a distillation run...

stilly_bugger
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by stilly_bugger » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:15 pm

Yes, it was great having the chart on hand during a stripping run to calculate the %ABV of the remaining wash.

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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Mashy » Mon May 07, 2012 7:21 pm

Like the chart Rad. I found on my 4" pot still that it doesn't start pissing decent until around 180. I was running UJSM so I'm used to seeing what that did on a flute so I was a little confused. I guess the it's about 48" tall and has 200ft of copper packing but I don't think that would slow down the vapor that much. Good booze coming out at 80% anyway so I'm happy either way. Just thought it was interesting.
Mashy

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HookLine
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by HookLine » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:09 am

Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.

Rigsby 1
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Rigsby 1 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:26 am

Given constant and normal atmospheric pressure what the chart actually shows is the relative compositions of vapour and liquid for a given temperature, once evaporation equilibrium has been reached. Boiling is just one point on the curves.

Example:
If you know what the %ABV of the wash in your pot is, you can use the chart to predict at whch temperature it will begin to boil.
You might also monitor the pot contents temperature as distillation proceeds, so that you can tell what amount of alcohol remains in it as 100C is neared. To do that, you would need also to know the volume or better, weight, of remaining wash, but that's not difficult to establish.

Things become MUCH more interesting if you monitor the temperature gradient inside a packed reflux column.
As refluxed distillate falls downwards, it gives up it's alcohol (exclusively by evaporation, not boiling) to the rising vapour.
The rising vapour gives up its water (exclusively by condensation) to the falling reflux liquid.
You can tell precisely how well or otherwise your column is performing and, knowing the mass throughput, how efficient it is overall.
And more........

Usge
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Usge » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:03 am

And if you can predict at what temp the mixture will boil...you can also find in this chart the % that the resulting distillate will be. Beyond that, you can work the chart backwards...start with the % you want your distillate to start, and find what % the still charge mixture needs to be to produce it.

Rigsby 1
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Rigsby 1 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:03 am

Well, sort of....

The output of a potstill is always varying as alcohol is preferentially boiled off.
So you'd need to get the maximum, initial %ABV from the BP at the outset, then calculate how long it will take to evolve practically zero %ABV.
That's a non-trivial calculation, unfortunately.

But keeping to a constant %ABV wash charge of constant volume, and constant heating applied to it would yield the relevant curve of vapour temperature rise, and thus the diminishing %ABV in it, to yield the mean %ABV over the whole batch.
Further subdivision to account for cuts would also provide repeatable indicators for the HD who wanted to eliminate excursions to poor quality.
Or you could revert to just twaddling (take the SG) the hearts to get the %ABV of those, alone.
Another horse, another course!

Usge
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Usge » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:42 pm

Uh boy.
Or you could just use the calc on the parent site to get you in the ball park: http://homedistiller.org/calcs/pot_calc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

We have other charts that show other relationships. This one we use mainly to show new members who have no previous experience that there "is" a realtionship between heat/temp and abv/% and what that relationship is. We use it to explain simple things like why your abv drops during the course of a run. Or why you can't hold temp at a given temp on a postill. etc.

In the end..none of these calcs tell you how something tastes or whether you'll like it or not. To quote someone here..."I ain't never seen no thermometer with taste buds". Nor hydrometer for that matter either (although we can certainly make some educated assumptions about things). Cuts on a potstill, in my experience, are entirely subjective would not be easily placed using math or points on a curve.

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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Rigsby 1 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:47 am

If ONLY we had reliable means of determining those parameters, all of the "art" in distilling might disappear overnight.
I do have a dog that barks once when he smells Scotch and twice when he smells Rum. Unfortunately, he also cocks his back leg up when he smells alcohol.
We have a lot of puddles around here..... and he bites postmen too.

But a starting point, maybe?

Seasonal greetings to all, Chartists and Traditionalists.

Usge
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Usge » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:25 am

You might best keep that dog for making your cuts then :P

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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Rigsby 1 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:09 am

He's had "the cut" :esurprised: so he's feeling "ruff" :mrgreen:

southern traditions
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by southern traditions » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:02 pm

Thanks for making this chart so easy to find. I knew I had seen it in several places and couldn't for the life of me remember where it was and bingo, there it was. Like several have mentioned, it gives me a good idea of whats left in my pot after I start making some cuts.

Thanks again,
Martin

Usge
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Re: Temperature & ABV Relationship Charts

Post by Usge » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:00 am

Just FYI, these charts were reproduced from the main "theory" section of the parent site. Rad went to the trouble of making a F and C version in a format to make viewing and printing better and the chart more clear than the low-res image from the original.

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