Rerunning Feints

Distillation methods and improvements.

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by Pamulli » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:27 am

This has been a great read for me. Thanks for all the advice. Like so many, I thought feints was heads and tails.

I do have one question that I didn't see mentioned though. Hopefully I didn't just skim over it. When you add feints do you have to account for them in your fore shots? I guess if you throw out fore shots based on your original starting volume for the stripping run and then you don't keep your heads either and only save hearts for drinking and tails as feints then you should be safe? You would really be discarding way more than the standard recommendation for fore shots. Right???

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by blind drunk » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:46 am

Sounds 'bout right. If you got rid the foreshots to begin with, then you're safe ...
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by Goose » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:11 am

lads, confused, in the stripping run, I presume you still dump the foreshots, or do you just collect the lot then dump the foreshots in the spirits run ?
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by blind drunk » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:59 am

Some do the big foreshot dump during the stripping run and then another smaller one during the spirit run. Some do it during the spirit run. As long as you get rid of it, you're good.
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by August West » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:36 pm

This is a great thread everyone can learn from. A question as it partains to a sugarhead wash like UJSSM, if most of the "bite" comes from heads and some extra flavor really comes from re-running the tales from spirit run back into next stripping run, Has anyone had bad experiences with their product from having too little "heads" in it, or are heads just as important as tails in looking for flavor?
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by Prairiepiss » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:51 pm

August West wrote:This is a great thread everyone can learn from. A question as it partains to a sugarhead wash like UJSSM, if most of the "bite" comes from heads and some extra flavor really comes from re-running the tales from spirit run back into next stripping run, Has anyone had bad experiences with their product from having too little "heads" in it, or are heads just as important as tails in looking for flavor?
I would say it all comes down to personal preference. What works for me mite not work for you. So experiment to find what works for you. Will add some like some heads flavors in their drink. Some don't. I'm one that doesn't. Just try it every way you can think of. Then you will know what works for you.
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by August West » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:46 pm

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll divide 15 gallons low wines into 3 lots, run the first slow, the second faster, and the third just under strippin speed and compare. Then try changing speeds within runs after that.....so many possibilities.
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by Titus-a-fishus » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:58 am

This is the most influencial thread I have read in a long time.

it needs to be kept at the top of the threads and not let get buried.

Has explained a heap of confusing terms for me.

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Separating heads and tails

Post by troublestylist » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:09 pm

Here's my thought...

Heads are mostly ethyl acetate and ethanol, with no tails.
Tails are mostly ethanol and nasty cardboard flavors, with no heads.

So, after spending so much time segregating them...why recombine them?

Throw some CC into the heads to help covert the ethyl acetate back into ethanol, water it down, then run it. After isolating the heads, you should be able to get a pretty clean neutralish without worrying about tails. In fact, whatever "tails" you get down to a reasonable percentage you can rerun with your next heads run. With any sort of EA conversion, you may be able to rerun heads indefinitely....or take a chunk out to use as fingernail polish remover or fuel.

Likewise, an all-tails run without ethyl acetate should be MUCH cleaner, and very little if any heads need be thrown out. Not sure if the "tail tails" could be run indefinitely, but you'd throw out a lot of the garbage each time in the still effluent, so it should stay clean.

Less waste, potentially. :)
Last edited by troublestylist on Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Separating heads and tails

Post by ipee7ABV » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:30 pm

troublestylist wrote:Here's my thought...

Heads are mostly ethyl acetate and ethanol, with no tails.
Tails are mostly ethanol and nasty cardboard flavors, with no heads.

So, after spending so much time segregating them...why recombine them?

Throw some CC into the heads to help covert the ethyl acetate back into ethanol, water it down, then run it. After isolating the heads, you should be able to get a pretty clean neutralish without worrying about tails. In fact, whatever "tails" you get down to a reasonable percentage you can rerun with your next heads run. With any sort of EA conversion, you may be able to rerun heads indefinitely....or use as fingernail polish remover or fuel.

Likewise, an all-tails run without ethyl acetate should be MUCH cleaner, and very little if any heads need be thrown out. Not sure if the "tail tails" could be run indefinitely, but you'd throw out a lot of the garbage each time in the still effluent, so it should stay clean.

Less waste, potentially. :)
what is CC

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Re: Separating heads and tails

Post by yankeeclear » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:32 pm

ipee7ABV wrote:
troublestylist wrote:Here's my thought...

Heads are mostly ethyl acetate and ethanol, with no tails.
Tails are mostly ethanol and nasty cardboard flavors, with no heads.

So, after spending so much time segregating them...why recombine them?

Throw some CC into the heads to help covert the ethyl acetate back into ethanol, water it down, then run it. After isolating the heads, you should be able to get a pretty clean neutralish without worrying about tails. In fact, whatever "tails" you get down to a reasonable percentage you can rerun with your next heads run. With any sort of EA conversion, you may be able to rerun heads indefinitely....or use as fingernail polish remover or fuel.

Likewise, an all-tails run without ethyl acetate should be MUCH cleaner, and very little if any heads need be thrown out. Not sure if the "tail tails" could be run indefinitely, but you'd throw out a lot of the garbage each time in the still effluent, so it should stay clean.

Less waste, potentially. :)
what is CC

My guess is Calcium Carbonate.
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Re: Separating heads and tails

Post by troublestylist » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:08 pm

ipee7ABV wrote: what is CC

Yea, sorry. Calcium carbonate reportedly reacts with the ethyl acetate making calcium acetate and ethanol. It "unesterifies" the alcohol, returning it back into the mix, and locks up the acetate in the precipitate. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) works too.

It talks about the theory here...

http://homedistiller.org/distill/dtw/salt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by frozenthunderbolt » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:22 pm

Realy? Calcium acetate is what i add to alcohol to make an alcohol gell
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by blind drunk » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:24 pm

This is an interesting piece in the context of this thread. FYI it's a PDF.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=e ... -1ur48aE-A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by kkbait » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:17 am

Excellent post.. helps clear up lots of questions

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by troublestylist » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:53 pm

Just reran a mixmatched batch of heads. Tried calcium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate on them (over weeks), and left a little bicarb in the pot.

I couldn't tell if I got it any "cleaner" than I would have without the alkalis, but I ended up with 50% heads and 50% very clean neutralish hearts. Better than nothing.

I took a sample off "Heads Version 2" and through in some more bicarb. I'll control this sample to see if I can detect any sensory change in the ethyl acetate concentration, versus the rest of the batch.

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by DrDalen » Fri May 18, 2012 12:47 pm

Interesting thread!

But correct me if I'm wrong, it seems most of you sharing your thoughts here are talking about pot stills, beer mash and whiskey.

How do you handle your heads and tails if you run a fractional still (i.e. VM) from a plain suger mash?

I have used to strip 2x 25liter batches with a crude stripper, potstill style to get my low vines. Dillute to under 40%.
Then run this in my VM. Bleed of foreshots very slowly, then collect my main run in small glass jars until the VM stops.
Then do some tasting to judge what jars are hearts. And then... I have always just thrown my heads and tails into the next batch of low vines, before my next VM run. I haven't experienced any sort of collection of bad stuff imo, although I do maybe get a bit more foreshots. I stabilize my coloumn for about one hour or more before starting to bleed foreshots, taking note of temperature. When the temperature has risen 2 degrees celcius, I consider this the start of my main run.

In my naive mind, the heads and tails are mostly pure ethanol, smeared with a fraction of lower (heads) and higher (tails) alcohol. Even with a fractional still, I will not get 100% separation, so we make cuts. But the next time I run this, a little more of the bad stuff ends up as foreshots, or are left in my keg, as my VM stops at 47%.

Am I wrong to think like this, or should I stop rerunning heads and tails like this?

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by rad14701 » Sat May 19, 2012 6:28 am

DrDalen wrote:How do you handle your heads and tails if you run a fractional still (i.e. VM) from a plain suger mash?
Feints are feints, aside from the %ABV... You save up the feints from a reflux column run the same as with a pot still... The only difference is that the volumes are less which means it takes longer to accumulate enough to dilute down to under 40% for another pass through the reflux column...

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by Dnderhead » Sat May 19, 2012 6:44 am

just to add,if you run all heads/tails you will have lager cuts.

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by pizzaninja » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:09 pm

I save all heads and tails from every 10 gal wash I do.I save the heads and do a all head run saving everything I get about halfway thru the run down to 20 percent. Use that in my spirt run with all my hearts and tails from other runs comes out to around 5 to 6 gal of high abv. I add this to a 6 hour banana mash fermented fast to break up the bananas and release the flavors in the banana. I'm sure its running at about 45 50 abv. But I have a very tight rig. This I get about 2 to 2 and a half gal of absolutely fine banana brandy. From this I save only the tails that I will add to a stripping run to one of the next head runs. My final brandy runs a abv of between a 75 and 65. I use a 15 gal keg with the up stem reversed stuffed with stainless steel scrubbers. Over this I have coiled a 3/8 Copper tubing circulating cold water. this is the cause some reflux and to polish of the spirit slightly. as it is a pot still I don't want too much reflux because this would be working backwards. from there it goes into 1 inch fitting into a worm system. of course all copper from there. this is my method is always worked for me I've never had any problems from it. genuinely I will throw out the heads and tails from my in spirit run. Generally I will have 1 and a half to 2 gallons of head 1 gallon of tales and 2 and a half gallons of heart. And that's my storey and i'm sticking to it. Lol
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by Prairiepiss » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:43 pm

Sounds like a cm reflux still to me?
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by pizzaninja » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:00 pm

Basically with my own twist. Works great to get flavor and high abv in the same bottle.thing is my riser is only 3/4 inch but with a 40 abv wash I get 175 proof with all the flavors of a pot still.I'll post picks on the authorized posting aria.. :thumbup:
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by Exem » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:02 am

I did all feints run (barley malt heads and tails only) in a pot still. Diluted feints down to 30 abv and charged the still 25 percent of its capacity to leave more space for the vapour to rise and clean up. I went slowly - 2 drops per second. I discarded the first jugs which smelled a lot like heads and stopped collecting at 62 abv. The middle cut i got is rough ang has a sting it's really far from nice hearts but it's not as nasty as early heads usually are. I would not like to drink this stuff as a new make. I diluted it down to 65 abv and added 250 cm2 of oven toasted and alligator charred oak pieces ( 3 litres of new make) that had soaked for 2 weeks in hearts before and splashed 40 ml of bourbon into it.
Well, I guess i have to wait for a long long time now to see if all feints is worth pot stilling.

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by marco » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:23 am

Nice Thread, but.. :think: I suppose a lot of confusion come from mixing info from sugar or grain/fruits batches and pot or reflux stills.

I'm here to learn,so apologize my 5 years old boy questions :D with a poor man pot still...

1) First run: When (heavy and foamy) mash boils up and distillate comes cloudy and impure, ok, let's proceed with a stripping run... whole product or infused for Gin, Absynt, etc will be obtained with a spirit run!

BUT if, even on the first run, I gently heat up a clear sugar or honey wash, and (the heart of the) distillate come out crystalline, concentrated, good smelling and good tasting, WHY i would mix it with head/tails and run it again?

2) Again on "stripping run" : why missing an opportunity to discard foreshots ? I read "collect all"... I hope "except methanol and ethil acetate". And if a second run would be required, I'll discard some little more again!

3) If I'm not wrong, in an azeothrope higher in alcohol, cuts begins sharper. So, adding heads and tails to the batch allows a better discarding of fores and leavings. Why someone suggest bad stuff is increased into finished product?

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by blind drunk » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:25 am

BUT if, even on the first run, I gently heat up a clear sugar or honey wash, and (the heart of the) distillate come out crystalline, concentrated, good smelling and good tasting, WHY i would mix it with head/tails and run it again?
You wouldn't. Take the money and run. But you have the choice of rerunning, in your next stripping run of the same mash, what you haven't kept for drinking. This is for a simple potstill, not sure about other machinery.

Again on "stripping run" : why missing an opportunity to discard foreshots ? I read "collect all"... I hope "except methanol and ethil acetate". And if a second run would be required, I'll discard some little more again!
Some discard on the stripping run and others believe it's best on the spirit run because they are more concentrated. Others still make foreshot cuts on both runs.
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by Dnderhead » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:56 am

one mix up mix up on this thread is the diferance between a pot still and a reflux.
with a pot still you will have considerable amount of heads/tales.it will be as much as 2/3 of what you collect.especially if doing one run.
with a reflux still you mite not rerun heads /tales because it has better separation.therefor it mite not be worth rerunning them.

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by Prairiepiss » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:59 am

But feints heads and tales from a pot still can give up quite a bit of good alcohol when ran in a reflux still. :thumbup:

My first runs are kinda in-between a pot still run and a reflux run. And I make real tight cuts. So refluxing the crap out of the feints gives me a bunch of good usable neutral.
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by marco » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:24 am

Thank you... So, using a pressure cooker or any other simple pot still, the procedure may be:

Heat up gently, collect fores and discard 'em anytime, so:

1) Distillate comes out cloudy (grain or fruit) ... collect out all and : a) refine it in a spirit run making cuts.(discarding a little more hi-heads, to be sure !) recycle the feints on next spirit run b) if your product is yet bad, run it a third time and do some almost pure alcohol, and you will use it for homemade liquors.

(The tricks I read: air the heads to evaporate lighter alcohols, and add some salt/bicarbonate before spirit )

2) distillate (from sugars) comes out clear, so make the cut, save the heart, and recycle "first" feints on next first run.

I believe this proceeding could be done infinitely, because increasing ABV in the batch adding heads and tails make it more similar to a low wine ( :egeek: for students: you make a lighter azeothrope ), so you can make better cuts and I SUPPOSE it's untrue that "bad stuff is concantrated every time" because with a proper heating, it concentrates on discarded fores and leavings. (not if you do a stripping run regardless!)

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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by blind drunk » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:22 am

1) Distillate comes out cloudy (grain or fruit) ... collect out all and : a) refine it in a spirit run making cuts.(discarding a little more hi-heads, to be sure !) recycle the feints on next spirit run.
According to what dnderhead has said in the thread, you recycle the feints in the next stripping run. If you recycle in the spirit run, you have to keep track of generations because your likker could start getting too hot, even in the hearts. That's what happened to me. If that happens, then you're gonna have to age it out with wood and that could take some time. There are good flavors underneath the heat, but only time will reveal/release them. At least that's been my experience.
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Re: Rerunning Feints

Post by Dnderhead » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:13 am

"you recycle the feints in the next stripping run. "
Thank of feints like going up a flight of stairs and you have to much to carry.
so you'd go up 2 flights and back one,,,up two and back one.
this is for all runs..if your doing one or four.

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