Diagrams and Plans Chat

Distillation methods and improvements.

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Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Austin Nichols » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:53 am

In regards to all the off topic conversations in the Diagrams and Plans Chat thread, linked below, I thought another topic would be good for those wanting to discuss stuff in that topic without cluttering such a valuable resource with chit chat.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p6886259

So I'll start with a question for the fluterers.

I've started building another flute and cant stop thinking about what a PIA it was to build my last dephlag, so what I want to put out there for feedback is.

I can easily wind a 3/8 double helix coil with an outside diameter of 4" and an inside diameter of 2", my plan is to pop this inside the 4" column, about 4" above the top bubble plate.

Does anyone think this would be a viable alternative to building a dephlegmater, and what problems could you see arising from this as a substitute?

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by olddog » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:00 am

Should work OK a long as you can control the cooling rate.
modified dephlag.png
Here is how I am currently building them with the bottom reducer forming a centering drip ring.


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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Husker » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:28 am

Thanks Austin. I should have started this myself.

I'll sticky it for now, so it stays at the top.

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Kentucky shinner » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:55 am

I think this is well worth a try AN.. great Idea. Like OD stated as long as you have a water flow controll I think this could work really well. I have started using a shotgun dephlag with 4 -1" tubes. I make it 4" long and it works really well. With the coil in the top you would do away with 2 plates for the shotgun and get rid of a coupling also. It could make this build easier and less expensive..
I may give this a try myself..

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by rubber duck » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:03 am

Here's what may be a dumb question. Could a guy use a simple coil and run one of these rigs with a VM take off? This would eliminate all the fiddling with cooling flow and valves.
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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Samohon » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:04 am

rubber duck wrote:Here's what may be a dumb question. Could a guy use a simple coil and run one of these rigs with a VM take off? This would eliminate all the fiddling with cooling flow and valves.
I wondered that myself RD and came to the following:

If the flute is being run in pot-still mode the water to the dephlagmater is turned off allowing the coolant inside the dephlag to warm up...
Not saying it couldn't be done with a double/tripple wound coil, in fact it probably could, as OD has stated, being able to control the coolant as efficiently as the dephlag would be the crux here...

Maybe some of the flute players will chime in... :D
Last edited by Samohon on Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by LWTCS » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:06 am

I would say yes for sure Duck. But for me,,much of the attraction is the take off rate.

Wouldn't the VM take off rate be slow enough to make me stick an ice pick in my ear?

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Samohon » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:21 am

LWTCS wrote:I would say yes for sure Duck. But for me,,much of the attraction is the take off rate.

Wouldn't the VM take off rate be slow enough to make me stick an ice pick in my ear?

(Don't know how to do smileys on the hand held)
Hell yeah LC, the take-off is the big attraction here also... I'm a whiskey nose, so this design would certainly suit members wishing to carry over full flavoured products at a very fast rate...

I'll keep my VM for the neutral it produces, but later upgrade to 3" for a bigger take-off per hour...
I take +1.5L per hour at +90% abv, but doing it faster cuts down on the energy/coolant used...
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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by LWTCS » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:26 am

Pretty sure the take off needs to be after the cm tool get that desireable bahavior IMO.
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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by LWTCS » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:27 am

Pretty sure the take off needs to be after the cm tool get that desireable bahavior IMO.
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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Austin Nichols » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:05 pm

Kentucky shinner wrote:I think this is well worth a try AN.. great Idea. Like OD stated as long as you have a water flow controll I think this could work really well. I have started using a shotgun dephlag with 4 -1" tubes. I make it 4" long and it works really well. With the coil in the top you would do away with 2 plates for the shotgun and get rid of a coupling also. It could make this build easier and less expensive..
I may give this a try myself..
I'm going to go ahead and wind the coil for it today, and I will use a 3/8 needle valve for flow control :D

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Kentucky shinner » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:12 pm

Good thinking guys, I do beleive the take off rate would suffer big time. I think for me that would kill the idea. One of the greatest things about the flute is the take off rate..

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Austin Nichols » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:24 am

I wound my coil just now, no fancy jigs or anything like that, just the mrs sitting on a bit of 2" pipe for the inner coil.... then wrapped in cardboard and wound the outer coil over that.

Took ten minutes of pure grunt and a whinging woman, but I was too much at one with my copper to hear too much...... and it's done :mrgreen:

I'll get some pics up in the morning of how it turned out, I had to burn the cardboard out and it's a bit dirty so needs a clean before pics can be taken.

Cheers.

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by myles » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:02 am

On this issue of using a coil as the dephlegmator has anyone looked at this aspect yet?

You possibly want it to run in two ways:
As a partial condenser during the run which could be done easily enough with a coil.
As a full condenser if you wish to introduce 100% reflux at any time, which again could be done with a coil.

My question is this though. How much vapour space do you need to leave (in the coil) to allow vapour blowby during the run, and yet still have the coil density high enough to achieve 100% reflux.

If you pack the coils in at high density like in a reflux condenser, are you going to impede the high vapour flow rate that is so desireable? Possibly a longer, lower density, coil might let the vapour past when you want, but still be able to condense it all.

I haven't run one of these so I may be looking at it wrong. When you do want to induce 100% reflux are you still running with high vapour flow rate or have you turned the boiler power down?

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Austin Nichols » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:20 am

Yeh I thought about that too Myles, and left a 2" passage for vapor through the center of the coil, but only because most dephlegmaters have a 2" center tube in a 4" column.

I plan on running the coil coolant flow from the outer then through the inner coil with a needle valve, the inlet and outlet will be at the top of the coil so the bottom of it is warmer... hopefully I got this right.

I've read some of Harry's stuff about feeding warm water to the dephlegmater and might even run just the one valve through the product condenser, and then through the coil so I'm not smashing the reflux with cold water... my thinking in this respect is that the dephlegmater coolant adjustment wont be as touchy with a warmer cooling source, there fore giving an easier system to run.

Cheers.

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by myles » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:46 am

The way I read the posts, most dephlegmators dont run at 100% reflux. It makes sense energy wise to feed them with warm coolant, and your coil should work just fine.

BUT if you want full reflux it is going to be hard to achieve with a 2" gap down the centre. Do you need 100% reflux? The only reason I am thinking of it is because of the esterification issue with rum.

On the coolant routing I think it would be a mistake though. Invariably you want full flow on your product condenser but NOT in your dephlegmator.

Split the output from your product condenser instead, and feed 1 leg as the supply to your dephlegmator. The other goes back to your water source. Put the dephlegmator flow control on its output. You may need a seperate return line from the dephlegmator. If you try to combine the returns, the pressure in the product condenser output line might cause problems.
Alternatively it might act like a venturi and try to 'suck' the output from your dephlegmator(because of the difference in pressures and flow rates). You will need to try it to see.

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Austin Nichols » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:24 am

myles wrote:The way I read the posts, most dephlegmators dont run at 100% reflux. It makes sense energy wise to feed them with warm coolant, and your coil should work just fine.

BUT if you want full reflux it is going to be hard to achieve with a 2" gap down the centre. Do you need 100% reflux? The only reason I am thinking of it is because of the esterification issue with rum.

On the coolant routing I think it would be a mistake though. Invariably you want full flow on your product condenser but NOT in your dephlegmator.

Split the output from your product condenser instead, and feed 1 leg as the supply to your dephlegmator. The other goes back to your water source. Put the dephlegmator flow control on its output. You may need a seperate return line from the dephlegmator. If you try to combine the returns, the pressure in the product condenser output line might cause problems.
Alternatively it might act like a venturi and try to 'suck' the output from your dephlegmator(because of the difference in pressures and flow rates). You will need to try it to see.
I think with the coil inside the column rather than a dephlegmater surrounding the column a higher rate of reflux will be easier, I've left about a 3 to 4mm gap between winds to create turbulance and dont think 100% reflux will be a problem, considering OD gets 100% reflux with his dephlegmater.

Rum esterfication is an issue for me, I love making/drinking my rum, I'll have to adjust my running of the still to suit the different products I make, it's all a big learning curve at the moment for me, yet exciting! :D

I've read stuff that rednose and harry eluded to elsewhere suggesting only one coolant valve is needed, and that warm coolant is better fed through the product condenser, maybe I misunderstood this and need to go back and have another look.

My cooling tank is at 28 degrees C this time of year so it's pretty warm anyway, and with my supply being slit 2 ways into my shed I can change or modify my cooling very easily.... so that's all good.

Cheers.

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Austin Nichols » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:27 am

in the flute plan it shows downcomers with the bottom one being a J

I'm thinking it would be real easy to build a plate tree with a series of J's, instead of the standard trend of weirs for a straight downcomer....

anyone see a problem with this?

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by myles » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:03 pm

Austin Nichols wrote:in the flute plan it shows downcomers with the bottom one being a J

I'm thinking it would be real easy to build a plate tree with a series of J's, instead of the standard trend of weirs for a straight downcomer....

anyone see a problem with this?
No problem. The usual configuration is a bit less expensive is all. I don't know about you AN, but I tend to overbuild. I don't think I have seen a definitive guide for how much condenser is NEEDED. I am interested as I have a dephlegmator on the cards too.

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by olddog » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:05 pm

myles wrote:I don't know about you AN, but I tend to overbuild
We have noticed. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by HookLine » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:33 pm

One plus of using a coil for a dephlegmator is that it holds less coolant volume than a shotgun or Liebig based design, which means a faster response to changes in coolant flow rate.
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Re: Diagrams and Plans Thread

Post by Arphaxad » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:44 am

Samohon I was thinking about the drawing above here With the boka over the vm. I was thinking do you think it would work to have the boka output connect in to the vm output just after the valve, but above the Liebig, so that the output of the lm would be cooled?

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Thread

Post by Prairiepiss » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:53 am

Arphaxad wrote:Samohon I was thinking about the drawing above here With the boka over the vm. I was thinking do you think it would work to have the boka output connect in to the vm output just after the valve, but above the Liebig, so that the output of the lm would be cooled?
Kinda defeats the purpose of building a VM LM combo. The main reason is to take off heads with the LM so they aren't run through the VM condenser. To probably smear with the hearts. So the VM condenser is only used for the hearts. Keeps it cleaner. And they shouldn't be a real need to cool the LM output. Unless you really want to.
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Re: Diagrams and Plans Thread

Post by Arphaxad » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:21 pm

Oh well when you put it like that. Lol.

Thanks I never thought about smear before.

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Thread

Post by rad14701 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:53 pm

Arphaxad wrote:Oh well when you put it like that. Lol.

Thanks I never thought about smear before.
I just talked about this in another thread yesterday... :think: You're falling behind... :lolno:

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Thread

Post by Arphaxad » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:38 am

I remember reading it but I think it went in one eye and out the other... You ever learn a new word and then start hearing it everywhere.

I am getting close to being ready to pick out a still design. I wish I could just buy what I want but it doesn't seem like anyone is making them. These VM's with the boka top. That's really nice.

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Re: Diagrams and Plans Thread

Post by Samohon » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:32 am

Arphaxad wrote:I was thinking do you think it would work to have the boka output connect in to the vm output just after the valve, but above the Liebig, so that the output of the lm would be cooled?
No, the purpose of the LM above the VM, for me anyway, was always to keep VM Liebig for hearts only and as the VM shuts off when the alc level in the vapour gets lighter, to collect the rest of the tails from the boiler... This design certainly works for me and if I were to change anything about it, it would be a larger bore to increase quantity. I would build it exactly the same way, but rather than use 2", it would be more like 3" or 4"...

I have moved these posts to the Diagrams and Plans chat thread to keep the main D&P thread clean...
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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Samohon » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:11 pm

My pot still drawing has been finally updated to correct all typos and Dimensional errors...

Heres the Clicky Thingy....

Thought I'd bump it here instead of the main D&D thread...
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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by Wharf_Ratt » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:30 pm

I was just looking for the correct spot to post this same question. I have been reading all the flute threads and think they are just awesome and was wondering why the deflag couldn't be replaced with a coil.

How did it work?
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Re: Diagrams and Plans Chat

Post by googe » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:42 am

Something I thought about the other night just for fun. Any good?.
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