New still in the making

Distillation methods and improvements.

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New still in the making

Post by sub »

Firstly,

Hello to all. This is my first post, but I have been reading lots of info on this board for a couple of days now. Infact, I have become addicted to reading this forum since I found it. Very impressive resource.

I made a still about 5 years ago, but I modified the design with ideas of my own, which made it very hard to operate. It did produce some nice output but was a pain to use.
Image

It's been about 4 years now since I distilled anything, but the bug has bitten again. So here I am. :P

I'm in the process of building a new still, and this time I want to do it right. I'm basing my design closely on the mini-still design, and also the PDA-1 design.

The new still:

-The column will be 50mm diamater.
-I intend to make the head separate to the column
-Height of column (packing) undetermined at this time. Probably 2-3 feet
-The pot will be the same pot pictured above: 15 litre (though I'm going to have to work out how to enlarge the hole for the new column)
-The heat source will also be the one pictured above 1600w Ronson.I have hard-wired this so the hotplate is always on however it is controlled via the Triac I built (pictured bellow).

Please refer to the following diagram in reference to my questions.
Image

A: I'm keen to have a jacketed condenser here rather than a coil.
-does a coil condenser restrict water flow a lot? I imagine it does. Limiting how much potential exists for cooling when required.
-what dimensions should I make a jacketed condenser? I was thinking 3/4' outer dia and 1/2' inside x 12' long

B: Is there really any requirement to have any sort of collector here, as seen in the plans for the mini-still? My logic tells me: when valve C is opened, the vapours at B have a new path of escape available and will take it. Right or wrong?

B: How much room should there be here bellow the condenser and above the packing?

B: I want to use copper mesh in this new still. So if any Aussies out there have been able to source this from somewhere other that the distillation sites on the web, please post info here. I don't want pot scrubbers. I know where to get them.

D: I have already fabricated the outlet condenser. It is 1/2' internal dia and 3/4' outside dia.
Image

Any advice on this design would be greatly appreciated. If you see anything wrong or can add something please tell me.

I will post photos of the construction as it progresses.

The Triac Controller:
Image
Allows very good control of my heat source, but it does require a dummy load. Hence the second power outlet. So there is a normally a deep fryer full of water sitting along side my still when it's operating.

Thanks for looking, and I look forward to some constructive advice.
decoy
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Post by decoy »

I was thinking somthing similar to the condensor idea inside the column rather then a coil.

most of the other designs have little controll on spreading the reflux across the top surface of the packing some actualy look like they would run down the walls of the column.

i guess it wouldnt matter to much with columnes that are only around the 1.5-2" in dia but with the 3"+ columns i think it would improove the performance of the packing trickleing the reflux over a 3/4 od inch area onto the packing, ie the iner tube of your condensor would achive this.

somthing you could do is cut a 4 point upside down crown at the bottom of your reflux condensor to force it to drip the reflux at 4 points on the packing and with a radius equivelant to your reflux condensor..

i personaly think the condensor idea you have is better then the stuffing around with coils etc..

the reflux ratio Controll
altho the reflux control wont be as acurate as bokakobs design i think it should work well..

I also think your take of point/valve C should maybe be above the reflux coil i dont think it would make to much differance but it will make it netar to make as you can go strait accros with the cooling tube between the reflux and main condensor and a simple 90 deg elbow for the entry into the top of the condensor.

nice job on the triac controller ..

i would put the element inside the pot for maximum efficancy but hey the small range top will work well.
sub

Post by sub »

I'm still a little concerned about wheather or not the vapour will exit to the output condenser. Or will it simply continue up the column to the primary/reflux condenser, condense and drip back into the packing.

Should I have a restrictor valve in place to control the vapour flow up to the reflux condenser?
linw
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Post by linw »

You are building a vapour managed (VM) system which is a good choice. Your reflux condenser HAS to condense ALL vapour so you have the take-off valve in about the right place. And, yes, the vapour will flow out that outlet. I also have a copper 'washer' with 4 points angling down to get reflux into the centre of the packing.

I would use a coil for the reflux as I think a Liebig design with enough killing power would have to be too tall. I might be wrong but every design I have seen has a coil so this is a good guide. Coils aren't hard to make - I made mine in about half an hour or less (27 turns of 4.6mm soft copper tubing).

Good luck.
Cheers,
Lindsay.
decoy
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Post by decoy »

here is my idea of what is going thru my head .. if it helps ..

probly could have resized it smaler but im to drunk to bother .. ek.

Linw is sort of correcton with the liberg condensor comment, problem with em isnt the cooling related to the water jacket but the lack of turbulance to force the vapour to come in contact with the walls at the velocity the vapor is traveling through the tube.

you over come that by inserting a coper spring wound out of some copper electrical wire or a strip of coper with a slightly smaller width then the diameter of the inside tube and twisted into a spiral then inserted into the condensor crating a vortex or terbulance to force the vapor to contact the walls.

these are not fixed inside the condensor pemantly so it can stil be removed for easy cleaning
Last edited by decoy on Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sub

Post by sub »

linw wrote:You are building a vapour managed (VM) system which is a good choice. Your reflux condenser HAS to condense ALL vapour so you have the take-off valve in about the right place. And, yes, the vapour will flow out that outlet. I also have a copper 'washer' with 4 points angling down to get reflux into the centre of the packing.

I would use a coil for the reflux as I think a Liebig design with enough killing power would have to be too tall. I might be wrong but every design I have seen has a coil so this is a good guide. Coils aren't hard to make - I made mine in about half an hour or less (27 turns of 4.6mm soft copper tubing).

Good luck.
Ok, I will go with the coil option. I was just concerned with the reduction from 1/2" down to 1/4" restricting the water too much. I guess though, if it's working for everyone else, it'll work for me too. This is where I fell over with my first still :? trying to make changes to proven designs :lol:

Will the outlet pipe to the valve be ok at 1/2" dia or should it be 3/4"?
As stated above, I have already made the product condenser at 1/2" so I would have to remake that if it really needs to be 3/4".
I'm only theorising at the moment, but I wouldn't imagine the velocity of the output to be too high for 1/2"

@decoy
Thanks for the suggestion you made. Makes sense to me. I was thinking about putting mesh around the voids of the condenser to promote turbulence and to slow the vapour. But I think I will walk the proven path on this issue for now. I might play with that idea later on, but for now I want to get up and running as quick as possible.

I already have a wash halfway through fermentation and I was going to use my old still on it. That was until I started researching stills again and realised the faults I had built into it, and why it was difficult to use.
pothead
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Post by pothead »

The one thing that I would like to know is, Where would be the best place to put a thermometer in a VM design. LINW, maybe you can answer this for me.



~pot
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"Imagination is more important than Knowledge"-Albert Einstein
decoy
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Post by decoy »

you need the temperature right near the takeoff.

if your temp at the take off is bellow 79c you will get minimum take off
and if your reflux is above the takeoff then you will get next to no reflux..
Longhairedcountryboy
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Post by Longhairedcountryboy »

Hey guys,
I was having a hell of a time trying to find VM info awhile ago. Then I came across this. Type "vapour management" in the search. It might help you guys with your design ideas.
canadianmoonshiner
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Post by canadianmoonshiner »

Hey nice clamp on your boiler lid... can you post a photo with it turned so we can see?
Canadian Moonshiner
linw
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Post by linw »

pothead wrote:The one thing that I would like to know is, Where would be the best place to put a thermometer in a VM design. LINW, maybe you can answer this for me.
~pot
No problem. Mine is at the start of the take-off tube. I have a nipple into the side of the column and it has a brass tee screwed onto it with the vertical of the tee going to the gate valve which, in turn, goes to the Liebig. The outer horizontal tee arm is plugged but the plug has a hole drilled through it to take the metal spike of the thermometer. I push the horizontal thermometer in most of the way.

Decoy, you are confusing the issue by showing a CM still head. This thread is about a VM still design.
Cheers,
Lindsay.
sub

Post by sub »

Here are a couple of pics of the clamp on my boiler. Can't say where I got it, but it was just one of those lucky finds that worked out to be just right :wink:

Also here is a close up of the underside of the lid. Now I'm getting back into this, and doing a bit more and thorough research than the last time, I realise the rubber O-ring under that plate is probably a bit of a no-no. However, when I did make this still, I was wise enough to choose an O-ring designed to be in constant contact with fuel. So maybe it's not so bad.

The reason for the plate, although it does add strength, was to cover the holes in the lid where the handle spot weld broke through when I wrenched it off.

Image
Regardless, once the new still is built, I will need to modify this anyway because the new column will be 2", whereas this is for a 1".
I'll probably cut a large hole in the lid , then get a ss bowl tig welded onto whats left. I can't do it myself, but have a mate who can.
Last edited by sub on Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stoker
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Post by stoker »

Regardless, once the new still is built, I will need to modify this anyway because the new column will be 2", whereas this is for a 1".
I'll probably cut a large hole in the lid , then get a ss bowl tig welded onto whats left. I can't do it myself, but have a mate who can
or you can just use a brass fitting from 1" to 2".
-I have too much blood in my alcohol system-
decoy
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Post by decoy »

you can find 10-20L Paint tins etc that have snap lock rings like that or swiming pool filters etc ..

That would make a very strong seal i would recomend you put another pipe fitting like the one you have for the column in the lid and then put a cork in it as a safty blow of valve
Swag
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Post by Swag »

sub wrote:
Ok, I will go with the coil option. I was just concerned with the reduction from 1/2" down to 1/4" restricting the water too much. I guess though, if it's working for everyone else, it'll work for me too. This is where I fell over with my first still :? trying to make changes to proven designs :lol:

Will the outlet pipe to the valve be ok at 1/2" dia or should it be 3/4"?
As stated above, I have already made the product condenser at 1/2" so I would have to remake that if it really needs to be 3/4".
I'm only theorising at the moment, but I wouldn't imagine the velocity of the output to be too high for 1/2"
!/2" is just fine and the one you made will work well. The Leibig is a very efficient condenser.
You may want to consider a seperate valve on your reflux condenser. It's nice to be able to adjust it seperately from your main condenser.
sub

Post by sub »

Sorry if this has been asked/explained else where, but have been unable to find this info.

When making a coil condenser,
What sort of tube do you use?
The annealed type that comes in coils?
or the hard drawn stuff that comes in straight lengths
knuklehead
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Post by knuklehead »

Use the soft copper that comes in coils.
... I say God bless you, I don't say bless you ... I am not the Lord, I can't do that ...
Dane Cook
sub

Post by sub »

I having some trouble finding an affordable way to attatch a 2" column to my boiler.

My questions is:

How will a 2" column perform if the point where it's attatched to the boiler is reduced to 1" ?
stoker
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Post by stoker »

that should be no problem
1" is large enough to have little pressure.
-I have too much blood in my alcohol system-
linw
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Post by linw »

These photos of my VM still may be useful.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/linw99200 ... ?.dir=81ab" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Cheers,
Lindsay.
OldStormy
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Post by OldStormy »

Hi Linw,
Nice set of pictures. My still should be completed this week ready for steaming and a first run next weekend.
Cheers,
OldStormy
If at first you don't succeed - try something different,
linw
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Post by linw »

Look forward to hearing how it goes. The steam test will help clean it out but don't get worried about how the steam test goes as an alcohol charge behaves very differently.

Good luck.
Cheers,
Lindsay.
sub

Post by sub »

It's not getting much easier....

I'm now having a lot of trouble finding a supply of 2" copper pipe.

I have seen various stills using 1 1/2" , including the Mini-Still.

The 1 1/2" is going to cost as much as the 2" would have from my cheapest supplier. But the 2" I wanted isn't available for some reason.

Is there really anything gained by using 2", or lost using 1 1/2" ?
jbrew9999

Post by jbrew9999 »

The pipe diameter (in that range) mostly affects your maximum heat input for a given purity. i.e. The bigger the pipe, the more heat it can take so the FASTER you can run.

There are several people who get 95%+ with 1500 - 1800W in 2" pipe. With 1.5" pipe, you will need to run with less heat. Since a 1.5" pipe has only 56% as much cross sectional area as a 2" pipe, you will probably only be able to run at around 750W to get the same purity you could be getting out of 2" at 1500W. That means that a 2" column will produce a given purity twice as fast as a 1.5" column will produce that same purity.
possum
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Post by possum »

:wink: Yep, exactley as jbrew said. Cross sectional area.
Hey guys!!! Watch this.... OUCH!
sub

Post by sub »

Ahh,

Thanks for that explanation. I will continue to look for 2" pipe, but I'm running out of options for supply at a reasonable price. I really want to get this still up and running soon though, so I may end up just using 1 1/2".

Considering my first attempt (pictured at start of thread) was only 1" dia column, I think I would be ok with 1 1/2". Also my triac controller will allow me to dull down the heat if required.
sub

Post by sub »

She's coming together!!

I just need to try and find a small brass gate valve now. Proving to be hard to find.

Image
stoker
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Post by stoker »

is it a 1.5"?
-I have too much blood in my alcohol system-
LeftLaneCruiser
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Post by LeftLaneCruiser »

Sub,

hope i'm not too late..

But using a Liebig-style condenser as your reflux condenser works just as good. I use such a device in my still. Can't show you right now, but when i find a picture i'll post that.

KJH
OldStormy
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Post by OldStormy »

Hi Sub,
That is looking good. If you are having trouble finding a brass needle valve and end fittings try a hydraulic hose and fittings shop or Blackwoods. On the gold Coast I found the bits at the local hydraulic shop and they are much cheaper than Blackwoods.
Cheers,
OldStormy
If at first you don't succeed - try something different,
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