Lets Talk Column Packing

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

thecroweater wrote:
bearriver wrote:
CH3CH2OH wrote:I am more looking at a packed section above a plated column
Over 2"? Lava rock. Proven to work well by respected members.
According to posts I have read by Odin, SPP does not perform well above plates.
Ok I'm not sure i have read about Odin doing this do you have a link. I have read a few fails concerning SPP in a 4" but not as a reflux module over a plated column and thought that the right sized SPP might work ok for this if not a pricey way to go about it. Scoria/ lava stone works just fine along with some other products (for instance I am a big fan of ppl using structured copper mesh if using a stainless steel flute)

Odin wrote in the thread "SPP Machine Begins" by Big Swede: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=49704&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

" Why run SPP over bubble plates? Or why not? SPP works best in semi-flooded conditions. Lots of reflux reduce HETP to around 0.5 centimeters. Less reflux and HETP goes up. If you use plates to strip lots of water out of the gasses you are sending up your column, you will loose one of the places in the column where SPP works best (at the bottom). Just imagine that SPP will give around two distillations just in the first 1 to 1.5 centimeters of the packed column section. If the abv is low enough. If you want to make optimal use of SPP, you run it without any other help."

"There's another reason not to put plates under an SPP packed column section. Ethanol blockage. SPP is so effective, it takes a wash or low wines boiler charge to Azeo very quickly. If you feed your column with too high ABV, for instance via plates, the SPP may cause ethanol blockage: Azeo is reached so close to the entrance of the column, that no temp gradient can develop in the higher parts of the column. Ethanol hold-up, column flooding. That causes one to power down, thus creating less reflux and decreasing efficiency."

I am sure he has mentioned this elsewhere also but am not sure where. Hope it helps.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Odessit »

SPP works best in semi-flooded conditions.
I do not think so.
When the phlegm will accumulated in the SPP, vapour will throw it upward like spray, vapour will stirring reflux and separation power of the flooded part of SPP will go down to zero.
This is not theorizing. This is result of my practical researches

SPP gives the best result, the best separating not in flooded or semi-flooded condition, but in "before-flooding condition".
Excuse me, all my posts is on-line translation.
-----------------------------
50L Keg with Heating Elements 0-4.5 kW
1.5m Column SS 2"
packing - SS SPP 3.5x3.5mm
1,8 liter/h of azeotrope
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Tokoroa_Shiner »

Odessit wrote:
SPP works best in semi-flooded conditions.
I do not think so.
When the phlegm will accumulated in the SPP, vapour will throw it upward like spray, vapour will stirring reflux and separation power of the flooded part of SPP will go down to zero.
This is not theorizing. This is result of my practical researches

SPP gives the best result, the best separating not in flooded or semi-flooded condition, but in "before-flooding condition".
Do you have pictures of your glass column? That would be cool to see.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by DAD300 »

CH3CH2OH & BigSwede...

While I proved the 4" with larger SPP will make azeo, I certainly haven't perfected running it.

I am having a learning curve "problem" with the 4" column and SPP. First run over a keg, 12% ABV charge and propane burner it loaded the column just fine. After equilibrium was achieved I drew off azeo at an amazing rate...but then the column "unloaded" for lack of a better term.

I repeated this cycle one more time, before all the ethanol was out of the charge.

So, next run I shortened the column, bleed takeoff a little slower and the column stayed loaded for entire run. But that was minimally faster than the 3" column.

I don't think it's inefficiency of power. More power required, but for a shorter time.

First run, I think I was conservative in the power and didn't realize how fast it was going to be. I was out of ethanol before I figured it out. A keg, just doesn't hold enough ethanol to make it operate long enough, for me to learn how to run it.

Eventually I'll do a run of low wine boiler charge and have enough ethanol to justify the capability. Or maybe someone will let me put it on their huge boiler just to prove it.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by RandyMarshCT »

CH3CH2OH wrote:I am more looking at a packed section above a 4" plated column.
Have you considered pall rings? I have no experience with them, but would love to get my hands on some to try out.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by waster »

what about Dixon rings

http://www.filters.co.uk/filters/dixon-rings.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

with a sheet of SS mesh, you could cut and roll enough by hand during the playoffs .....
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Odessit »

I did these rings many years ago. They work well, but not for long. Rings are rumple and lose their form in the lower part of the column.
I'm sorry,old photo is not perfect :)

Image
Excuse me, all my posts is on-line translation.
-----------------------------
50L Keg with Heating Elements 0-4.5 kW
1.5m Column SS 2"
packing - SS SPP 3.5x3.5mm
1,8 liter/h of azeotrope
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by BigSwede »

A variation on the Dixon ring is certainly possible. My thought would be to lose the portion that cuts across the middle. Basically, take some stainless mesh, form it over a dowel rod until it forms a tube, then cut segments. You'd lose some efficiency, but the ease of manufacture would make up for it.

But I can certainly see Odessit has a point. If you use a mesh stiff enough to stand up to its own weight, it'll be a bear to form. Stainless wire or mesh is not fun to work with. And if you use a lighter mesh, one that can be rolled and cut, the pores will be too small and it might collapse.

With any packing, SPP included, if the void areas between portions of the wire are too small, it may as well be solid - no ability for vapor and liquid to form an interface in that region. That is one of the challenges of winding SPP - getting it to open enough so that, to the vapor and liquid, it sees more than just a tube. For example, a column full of closed springs... To the liquid/vapor interface, it may as well be a length of SS tubing. And it wouldn't be effective at all relative to other packings.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Odessit »

I used mesh some time until spent the first experiments with the SPP.
SPP is running smoothly and efficiently.
Column with a grid can be unpredictable, one cycle is not like the other. I attribute this to the gradual changing of form rings of mesh.
Optimal form (Form or shape? what word is rightly?) of the SPP, optimal treatment of its surface and the method of calculating the optimum mode of use were found. Now SPP gives excellent results on the first try... and on the hundredth too :)...
Therefore, all the columns, builded by order, I fill with SPP only, not mesh or other packing.
This makes it possible to give a guarantee of success while respecting the fundamental principles of technology.
There are a control unit for that, but that's another topic. :)
Excuse me, all my posts is on-line translation.
-----------------------------
50L Keg with Heating Elements 0-4.5 kW
1.5m Column SS 2"
packing - SS SPP 3.5x3.5mm
1,8 liter/h of azeotrope
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Bob421 »

I don't get on here much anymore and I didn't know where else to put this and wanted to share my experience so I am bringing up somewhat of an old thread.
I have a 2" x 45" column, offset head, all stainless, except for the reflux condenser and leibig to cool the output.
I was using copper mesh and had replaced it a couple of times and read here about using lava rock. I got a bag and proceeded to break it into smaller pieces so that no piece is more than about 1 to 1 1/2 inches in its longest dimension, but there are mainly smaller pieces. Its pretty hard to get uniform sizes. With the mesh I get around 94 percent for most of the run (gerber wash) running at 15 amps (5000 watt 220v element) and collecting at about half gallon per hour. With the rock I cant run over about 12 amps before its spitting out the top. If I run it so I can just hear the rocks dancing in the top It's about 10 to 11 amps. BUT I can still take off at half gallon an hour or maybe more at 94 percent for a larger part of the run. I have taken off a little faster but the flow pushes my hydrometer out of the parrot and I like to see when it starts rising to signal the end of the run. AND its the cleanest tasting product I have done yet. The one drawback I have is I like to manage the cooling water at about 120 degrees output and the well water I use for cooling has sediment in it and I think it tends to plug up the needle valve at such low settings. I have to regularly tap the needle valve when the cooling water starts to get too hot. A filter setup will cure this but I haven't gotten around to it yet.
I have about 3 runs on it after the cleaning run and I love it.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by francis »

Can cotton strips be used as packing ?
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Bagasso »

francis wrote:Can cotton strips be used as packing ?
I think that anything that can compress when wet is not going to work.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by rad14701 »

francis wrote:Can cotton strips be used as packing ?
francis, francis, francis...!!! Have you done any research at all...??? Seriously...!!! Stop posting and do ample research before attempting to participate openly again... You're either not up to speed or smelling of troll - and we don't like trolls...!!! :problem:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

rad14701 wrote:You're either not up to speed or smelling of troll - and we don't like trolls...!!! :problem:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by francis »

rad14701 wrote:
francis wrote:Can cotton strips be used as packing ?
francis, francis, francis...!!! Have you done any research at all...??? Seriously...!!! Stop posting and do ample research before attempting to participate openly again... You're either not up to speed or smelling of troll - and we don't like trolls...!!! :problem:
I'm just asking a question . . .
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Danespirit »

Of all poor choices one could make for a column packing, liquid absorbing, soft material ,would be the worst.
You might as well use rolls of toiletpaper.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by francis »

Thanks for the replies.

Following this up, I found a chemical engineering paper on the evolution of packing and they are saying the next step is using woven carbon fiber fabric.

http://oatao.univ-toulouse.fr/5827/1/Bessou_5827.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

It's basically a cloth. But what is cotton ? - cellulose, carbon . . .

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by yakattack »

Don't have time to read this right now but I do know a bit about carbon fiber. They are non absorbant. You really need to step back and understand the basic principals before you try to jump into a conversation with some advanced techniques and processes. Not saying you aren't smart enough, or that you don't have anything to offer but a solid foundation is Paramount.

Have you run a reflux column yet? If not get something simple setup to understand the concepts. Get a couple highschool textbooks on physics and read. A simple pot still is exactly that. Reflux columns are highly complicated beasts when you venture into new territory. Which is why having a handle on the basics of the science behind it is key.

Not trying to bust your chops, or put you down. I just want you to succeed and do so safely.

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by francis »

yakattack wrote:Have you run a reflux column yet? If not get something simple setup to understand the concepts. Get a couple highschool textbooks on physics and read. A simple pot still is exactly that. Reflux columns are highly complicated beasts when you venture into new territory. Which is why having a handle on the basics of the science behind it is key.

Not trying to bust your chops, or put you down. I just want you to succeed and do so safely.

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Yeah I know, I'm the new kid on the block, all is good. I have a simple column still, packed with SS scrubbers but I don't have a controlled reflux still. I'm researching. I think I may go with Manu's CM design in stainless.

Part of what hooked me on this hobby is I pretty much got something better than what you buy in the store first try. It doesn't give me any hangover. There is room for improvement though, as I only just started (and I'd like to make stuff like whiskey too). My vodka is very pure. The only problem was the nail polish smell, but I have a solution for that now.

At the fiber level is cotton absorbent? Or it is the fact of being spun into a thread and then woven that makes cotton cloth absorbent? I think it would probably clog too, but it may be worth a try.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Bagasso »

francis wrote:At the fiber level is cotton absorbent? Or it is the fact of being spun into a thread and then woven that makes cotton cloth absorbent? I think it would probably clog too, but it may be worth a try.
You know if you look up ethanol dehydration and starch you will find that being absorbent isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The problem that I see, which I mentioned in my last post, is that the packing could compress under the weight of the absorbed liquid and create a hazard.

One solution might be to attach it to a rigid frame. Tie cotton fabric to a wire mesh, roll it up and see what happens.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by francis »

Bagasso wrote: You know if you look up ethanol dehydration and starch you will find that being absorbent isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The problem that I see, which I mentioned in my last post, is that the packing could compress under the weight of the absorbed liquid and create a hazard.

One solution might be to attach it to a rigid frame. Tie cotton fabric to a wire mesh, roll it up and see what happens.
That is very interesting. I had read some stuff about using corncobs to get water absorption and push the abv over 94% for fuel alcohol. I wasn't thinking of this Bagosso, but simply for ease of packing and cleaning, a long snake of cotton, parallel strips or a longitudinal roll, and anchored at both ends of the column, under tension perhaps, or anchored just at the top, letting gravity pull it down.

We want good liquid vapor contact in the column, vapor moving up, liquid moving down. Let's consider the two extreme cases: (1) a column completely flooded with liquid, and bubbles moving up through that liquid, and then the opposite (2) a column completely full of gas, and droplets of liquid falling down it. I think both cases can still function as a packed column. Leaving aside the second case for the moment, consider the first case.

Now bear with me for an aside . . . I've always wondered why thumpers work so well, and none of the explanations I read satisfied me. How can they double abv? How can such a simple thing change a crude pot still into something which can produce a very high abv product ? Here is a possible explaination: the thumper may be functioning as a case 1 column above. A column completely filled with liquid and bubbles moving up through it. The bubble condenses and collapses, and in doing so heating the proximate liquid; eventually that liquid, with many bubbles condensing and collapsing within it, reaches it's vapor point and it boils. The bubble formed from the boiling moves up a little ways, then it condenses and collapses. This repeats. Thus we get multiple cycles of re-condensation and re-vaporization from bottom of the thumper liquid to the top, with bubbles condensing and collapsing, and then new bubbles forming in the heated liquid. That is why we get such high abv vapor; we have many distillations! If this theory is correct, it tells us how to make a better thumper: (1) Make the liquid deeper, in effect a taller column, and (2) impede the liquid from mixing vertically. We don't want random mixing, we want layers increasing in alcohol the higher we go. Alcohol and water are miscible, but water should be denser than the mixture (I don't know that for sure, I must look that up), but we can retard vertical mixing by putting horizontal perforated plates in the thumper liquid, bottom to top.
Last edited by francis on Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by thecroweater »

Bit off topic but one way to get it anhyrodrominous is to get Epson salts and place them on a baking tray in an oven. Bake it til its dead dry then when it's cooled you add it to some 95.63 azeotropic alcohol, I wouldn't use that stuff for drinking after that. Problem is with pure alcohol is you will struggle to keep it. The alcohol will absorb water from the atmosphere until it is back to azeo . I got 97% rectified a couple of times but soon enough it was back to 95.63%
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by thecroweater »

My column did infact use to run with an in line thumper at the base . From what I understand it ran faster and more efficient than I can in the configuration I run it in. I was thinking about replacing it but with a new still in my sights figure I'll let it be for now. I am fairly sure a column fed from a thump box would make all the difference when running plates below a packed refluxing module :thumbup:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Bagasso »

francis wrote:That is very interesting. I had read some stuff about using corncobs to get water absorption and push the abv over 94% for fuel alcohol.
I was just commenting on the idea that an absorbent material is not desired and here they are using them to seperate water and ethanol better than any common still can.
I wasn't thinking of this Bagosso, but simply for ease of packing and cleaning, a long snake of cotton, parallel strips or a longitudinal roll, and anchored at both ends of the column, under tension perhaps, or anchored just at the top, letting gravity pull it down.
These would also solve any compressing issues.
I've always wondered why thumpers work so well, and none of the explanations I read satisfied me. How can they double abv?
I don't know, two runs in a pot still will give you double abv. I have not come across any extraordinary feats from a thumper.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by pulsetech »

So far i have only tried scrubbies and rolled structured copper mesh in my packed section(500 mm) above 4 plates. I just pulled the trigger on some SS 316 Mig wire that i will try and turn into SPP. ive read most of the threads on how its done. Dad300 and Bigsweede thanks for all the info
I plan on running back to back to back with Scoria, Scrubbies and SPP. i have a pretty good felling of how my column runs with scrubbies which i feel are slightly better
than the rolled up structured copper mesh in my setup.

Might just make a 120L batch of Deathwish Wheatgerm and split it up 3 ways so i know the wash is equal and i love what i makes
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by shadylane »

Not meaning to hijack, but Deathwish Wheatgerm is too good to column distill.
I'd strip/spirit run it and use the feints to feed the column.
On topic: I've been using scoria for packing on a 2-1/2" CM column
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by pulsetech »

It Makes the Best Vodka i have ever tasted so its worth it. I have run a few batches across the 4 plates with no packed section. very nice on oak

As far as the SPP goes im going for 10mm dia x 15mm length for the 4 inch. .31 wire
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Bagasso »

rockchucker22 wrote:I believe inline thumpers work different than side by side because of the heat transfer is direct. But that's for another thread.
I think francis' theory is that a thumper works like a packed column but the packing material is a liquid. The only thing backing up the theory is the increase in ABV but a similar increase is seen with a simple double distillation in a pot still.

The problem that I see with the theory is that the motion within the liquid keeps a gradient from forming. I looked around for any flir images that showed any kind of gradiant. What I found was this video of a kettle. The liquid shows no gradient and at around 3:35 it hits 100ºC and heat, obviously because of the vapor, starts to spread into the headspace. At 4:00 the entire inside seems to be at the same temp.



I'll admit that I was hoping to find something to help the theory along but I didn't.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by googe »

And a liquid can't remove particles. If you've ever run rum through lava you'll understand, the amount of crap the lava sucks up is amazing. Like I've always said, I believe lava or any packing with the ability to soak works.good compared to a hard surface. That extra cleanliness is evident.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by pulsetech »

googe is your lava rock Red Scoria or the volcanic stuff you get for bbq's
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