Lets Talk Column Packing

Distillation methods and improvements.

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Yummyrum »

Hmmm , thanks Arsey . I’ve only seen and used the Bunnings Red stuff . It worked , but as you say , it was nasty dirty . This black stuff sounds much better . Is it lighter than the Red stuff ?

I gave up on Scoria and went back to scrubbers . Scrubbers were lighter and I got better ABV from them . That was in my 4” x 2 Metre column .
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by shadylane »

Yummyrum wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 5:27 am Thanks Bushy
So other than colour , how different is it from the red scoria I have used ?

And shady , what size black stuff is better than the ceramic rings ?
Thumb nail sizes seems to work good in a 4" column.
If you smash the red scoria, it wants to crumble and make dust.
The black will shatter like glass.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Yummyrum »

Thanks Shady :thumbup:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Bushman »

Glad to see this thread reactivated learning more from all your expertise. I know when mash rookie was first testing different materials for packing he was impressed with how cheap the lava rock was and it’s efficiency.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by bitter »

Now that I have SPP I will compare to the copper blocker I have but will take some time to learn to drive the new packing

lava rock does look very good! I like the easy of cleaning SPP though! I have 6 Liters of just over 6mm SPP for my 3" boka! Thats about 1.3 meters of SPP woot!

B
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by shadylane »

Yummyrum wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:04 pm
I gave up on Scoria and went back to scrubbers . Scrubbers were lighter and I got better ABV from them . That was in my 4” x 2 Metre column .
Something I've noticed is all scrubbies are not the same.
The big coarse ones like these, work better if the the tight coils are teased partly out.
Don't ask me why, I thought it would work good as-is since it looks similar to SSP.

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Yummyrum »

shadylane wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 5:02 pm
Yummyrum wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:04 pm
I gave up on Scoria and went back to scrubbers . Scrubbers were lighter and I got better ABV from them . That was in my 4” x 2 Metre column .
Something I've noticed is all scrubbies are not the same.
The big coarse ones like these, work better if the the tight coils are teased partly out.
Don't ask me why, I thought it would work good as-is since it looks similar to SSP.

That is my finding too Shady .
In my 2” , I would just stick the big wads of scrubbers in there and they worked fine , but when I went to 4” and got the large scrubbers , found they were useless unless I teased them out and packed them back hard .
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by shadylane »

For a while, I was using 12mm glass marbles for 4" packing.
When I emptied the marbles out, many of them had split in half.
I figured it was due to me cleaning the packing, by back flushing the column with cold water while the glass was still hot from the run.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by bitter »

shadylane wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:54 pm For a while, I was using 12mm glass marbles for 4" packing.
When I emptied the marbles out, many of them had split in half.
I figured it was due to me cleaning the packing, by back flushing the column with cold water while the glass was still hot from the run.
Thanks I had heard this also. Apparently some godo results with marbles.. I wanted SPP for a long time.. and finally have it now testing. Covid had me down.. but wash is done and hoping to get this run and test the SPP very soon! SPP ended yo being about 6.5 mm so 1/12 my 3" column width.

B
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by shadylane »

I'd like to try SSP, but I'm too poor to afford it and too lazy to make it. :lol:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by The Baker »

shadylane wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:03 pm I'd like to try SSP, but I'm too poor to afford it and too lazy to make it. :lol:
That's life.

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by bitter »

shadylane wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:03 pm I'd like to try SSP, but I'm too poor to afford it and too lazy to make it. :lol:
LOL that was alot of waiting a long time to go that way. I needed to replace my copper blocker packing I expected so was spend money for some wire or buy more copper blocker. I figured Stainless will last the rest my life so cheaper in the long run. Should perform at least as good and maybe be able to run faster.. or at least cleaner when I want to.

Going to be fun playing and testing. I also want to do some making Pure whiskey and see how fast I can get I won't be surprised if I get like 5.5 LPH from a 3" (could do that with 40% charge in a test with copper blocker once got things right but was tricky to maintain longterm.) But making pure whisky smear a bit I don't car so its not just a test run for speed.

My buddy spun up the SPP for me and I cut it all by hand.

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by bunny »

bitter wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:45 am

My buddy spun up the SPP for me and I cut it all by hand.

B


This might have come in handy. :D
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by bitter »

bunny wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:28 pm


This might have come in handy. :D
That would been handy we are working on cutting also. Got some 1084 for the blade.

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by drmiller100 »

shadylane wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:54 pm For a while, I was using 12mm glass marbles for 4" packing.
When I emptied the marbles out, many of them had split in half.
I figured it was due to me cleaning the packing, by back flushing the column with cold water while the glass was still hot from the run.
How did the marbles work compared to other packing?
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by drmiller100 »

I'm looking for 95 percent for fuel, and I'm running continuous. Therefore measures are different than others.

Marbles are CONSISTENT. POUR 1/2 inch marbles in a column 2 inches or bigger and it is amazing how they fill even and naturally into levels.

I ran the tests and marbles for me were most efficient. We all define Efficient different.

For me, I run one pass and my beer has solids floating about. The solids are small enough to pass easily down through the packing and I don't need to filter. The solids are well under 1/8 inch.
Mesh and metal shavings collected these solids and plugged part of the column.
Further I am running FAST. that means a lot of fluid and the column wants to flood. Marbles mean I can process 20 gallons of beer and 2 gallons of 95 percent etoh per hour from a 3-4 inch hybrid column

36 inches column of marbles was plenty to go frjom 10 percent beer to azeo. They are cheap.

Once I convinced myself marbles are as good as anything and better than most I justified it.

Evaporation is happy thoughts and sweet kisses, but it doesn't make booze. To demonstrate put a glass of 100 proof outside in a glass in the sun and measure how long it takes to drop to 20 proof.

I think the key to packing is to think about what it does. It suspends liquid and encourages vapor to come into contact with it. Yes, lava rocks hold a lot of liquid. Mesh even more. But mesh in particular has stovepiping.
Mesh is not consistent. I pack mine loosely, you pack it more tightly. But at each level in the still there will be areas where the mesh is tighter than other areas. Where the mesh is packed the liquid runs more, and the vapor runs less.
As an example you could pack with mesh, run a rod down through it, and the hot vapor would stovepipe up the empty space where the rod was and the fluid runs down the packed mesh, and no plates.

On the other hand, the fluid wicks across the marbles so the fluid is even across. The gaps are symmetric and even and the vapor goes up evenly.
Further, as the Valor goes up it speeds up between the gaps then hits the space even with the tops of the marbles. This creates TURBULENCE in the vapor.
Meanwhile fluid runs down the glass marble and on the bottom half of each marble the fluid gets very thin encouraging contact with Vapor.

When done you can make ANY packing work. You might have to use a lot of it
The question becomes what is the best packing for your application.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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drmiller100 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:59 pm
shadylane wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:54 pm For a while, I was using 12mm glass marbles for 4" packing.
How did the marbles work compared to other packing?
The marbles did the job, but were too heavy and expensive.
They're the hardest to pick up after a spill.
The most likely to plug up a 1/2" dephleg tube.
Also hardest to keep in the column, they love to plug up whatever is trying to hold them in.
If you try putting some mesh in the bottom of the column to hold marbles, their weight compresses the mesh too much.

The best bang to the buck is scoria, especially the black glass looking scoria.
The red scoria works but I can taste it in the neutral.

SS scrubbies work good and a fairly cheap.
I think scrubbies work better after being teased out and repacked.

Personally I like ceramic rings or saddles.
They weigh less than marbles and work better.

Don't judge a packing based only on it's hetp.
Take into account everything, especially the quality of the neutral.. :wink:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by bitter »

I did a couple runs for playing with our 6.5mm SPP and realyl happy with the results.

172.3 to 172.4F at the top and 3.2 to 3.8 LPH for really good quality neutral straight from the about 10-11% wash I did hit peak of 8 LPH but that was only for 5 minutes just more for kicks and giggles and stabilized at a constant173F so for stripping at least first bit might be worth while.

Once I have all my 200L stripped will be doing a spirt run liek used to on my copper blocker/scrubbie packing I may have issues with 40% in boiler but need to do apples to apples comparison. So far I do not think will be doing stripping any more.. Or will strip 1 and run one. Based on tasting I think will be alot more makes the cut as much cleaner that before with running similar speed from 40%.

In the past I ran 3 to 3.5 LPH with the copper blocker from 40% charge.
Now 3.2 LPH from 10% wash is rock solid whole run.. (1 cleaning and 2 runs of my wash)

Be interesting to see how clean this comes out with 30 to 40% in the boiler. I be can run faster than I want to Quality is #1 not speed. Speed is for craps and giggles though.. I was giggling like a school girl when did the 8 LPH knowing its was not sustainable.. :D

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by drmiller100 »

shadylane wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 9:35 pm
drmiller100 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:59 pm
shadylane wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:54 pm For a while, I was using 12mm glass marbles for 4" packing.
How did the marbles work compared to other packing?
The marbles did the job, but were too heavy and expensive.
They're the hardest to pick up after a spill.
The most likely to plug up a 1/2" dephleg tube.
Also hardest to keep in the column, they love to plug up whatever is trying to hold them in.
If you try putting some mesh in the bottom of the column to hold marbles, their weight compresses the mesh too much.

The best bang to the buck is scoria, especially the black glass looking scoria.
The red scoria works but I can taste it in the neutral.

SS scrubbies work good and a fairly cheap.
I think scrubbies work better after being teased out and repacked.

Personally I like ceramic rings or saddles.
They weigh less than marbles and work better.

Don't judge a packing based only on it's hetp.
Take into account everything, especially the quality of the neutral.. :wink:
I used 1/4 inch screen at the bottom. Pretty easy to keep them in there.
I don't find the weight to matter for my setup.

As for the guy who pours cold water onto their packing, WHY?
Marbles don't need cleaned.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by LWTCS »

Marbles don't likely need cleaning for fuel production.
But for spirits you'll definitely need to treat them to a good cleaning.
Especially after a couple few batches of running stinky tails batches.

Doug your runs are no where near stinky tails from batch distillation.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by drmiller100 »

LWTCS wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 1:23 pm Marbles don't likely need cleaning for fuel production.
But for spirits you'll definitely need to treat them to a good cleaning.
Especially after a couple few batches of running stinky tails batches.

Doug your runs are no where near stinky tails from batch distillation.
Even when I ran it batch the glass marbles wouldn't collect any nasties. The column walls would a little.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by shadylane »

drmiller100 wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 11:06 am

I used 1/4 inch screen at the bottom. Pretty easy to keep them in there.
I don't find the weight to matter for my setup.

As for the guy who pours cold water onto their packing, WHY?
Marbles don't need cleaned.
1/4" SS screen sounds good. :thumbup:
It's a packing holder with drilled round holes or a hole pattern that matches the marbles that would cause a problem.

When making neutral spirits, I all ways clean the column packing after use.
And marbles are the only packing that makes me have to wait before cleaning.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Saltbush Bill »

The one thing that packing in a reflux column spends more time doing that any other is holding back Tails, it does a great job of that.
Makes sense that its going to get pretty stinky and need a good clean.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by shadylane »

Here's a thought.
Look at all the different shapes and sizes of column packing being used in industry.
Ya don't find round packing. The available packing is shaped to stack up in a random pattern and have the most surface area to volume. Something round is just the opposite; it has the most volume per surface area.

I can see where round would be good, when wash is flowing down the packing in a continuous still.
And wide gaps are needed to keep from plugging up.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Agree 100% Shady.
The simple fact is that marbles become obsolete years ago, there are better things to use in industry and for hobby use.
To the best of my knowledge, marbles are a left over from the pre internet days when people used those or shattered windscreen glass simply because they knew no better and, or couldn't get things that worked better.
As for me, I'll just stick with what I know and like, structured copper mesh.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by drmiller100 »

shadylane wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 1:57 pm
drmiller100 wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 11:06 am

I used 1/4 inch screen at the bottom. Pretty easy to keep them in there.
I don't find the weight to matter for my setup.

As for the guy who pours cold water onto their packing, WHY?
Marbles don't need cleaned.
1/4" SS screen sounds good. :thumbup:
It's a packing holder with drilled round holes or a hole pattern that matches the marbles that would cause a problem.

When making neutral spirits, I all ways clean the column packing after use.
And marbles are the only packing that makes me have to wait before cleaning.
On that screen, i used square holes.. very open like almost chicken wire?

Also, let's say I'm using a 3 inch column. If I use a screen 3 inch circle it runs at one speed. If I make the screen like 6 inches square, and taper it so the sides go up the column and it pooches down in the center could run it a lot harder without flooding.

Hard to describe
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Corerftech »

Drmiller100

The screen you suggest would be more funnel shaped, with a sag in the middle offering a large screen surface area, correct? Like if you grabbed the middle of a Kleenex tissue and pulled up, the sides would fall down and form a cone?

I’m contemplating what to buy to fab for the same purpose.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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Corerftech wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:50 am Drmiller100

The screen you suggest would be more funnel shaped, with a sag in the middle offering a large screen surface area, correct? Like if you grabbed the middle of a Kleenex tissue and pulled up, the sides would fall down and form a cone?

I’m contemplating what to buy to fab for the same purpose.
Yes
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Corerftech wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:50 am Drmiller100

The screen you suggest would be more funnel shaped, with a sag in the middle offering a large screen surface area, correct? Like if you grabbed the middle of a Kleenex tissue and pulled up, the sides would fall down and form a cone?

I’m contemplating what to buy to fab for the same purpose.
Look what Hebeden did to retain packing using copper wire and a Still Dragon plate gasket. You can easily buzz away the interior of any Tri-Clamp gasket to make your own plate gasket.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by The Booze Pipe »

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Just finished the thread and wanted to check in to see if anyone tried this material?
shadylane wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:49 pm I've been using ceramic rings meant for use in an aquarium.
They seem to work better than scoria or SS mesh.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=77413

ceramic bio rings (1).jpg
Also curious if this material is still your preference?

I currently have six-wire copper mesh for a 3”x48” column but my understanding is the black lava rock might work better for that size column? Or maybe it just depends overall on my setup?

I’m mainly looking for something more repeatable, that will pack more consistently. But I don’t like the idea of having to manufacture the correct size and shape. If it’s just as efficient of a packing, why not go with something that is pre-fabricated and ready to go?
13.5g/50L keg boiler
copper pot still
modular 3" CCVM copper&stainless w/offset gin head
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