Lets Talk Column Packing

Distillation methods and improvements.

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thecroweater
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by thecroweater »

Its not so much soak up as filter out, it works in similar fashion as activated carbon aside from the great refluxing capably. These two capabilities stem from the same characteristics , loads of surface area with minicule perforations everywhere
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by googe »

The landscape places have the best stuff pulsetech, the black/dark stuff with a honeycomb look.to them.seems.the best (see pic). Exactly crow, your always better with words lol, but it must soak some.up, as even when its flushed with water the contaminants are still evident.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by pulsetech »

Cheers Mate. im going out tomorrow to find some
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by googe »

No worries mate, don't know.where your located but I get mine from.the landscape joint on kororoit creek.road Williamson north.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by pulsetech »

Ahh ok i am over the other side of the city. if i can find any over here i will take a drive over there
Thanks for the info
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by francis »

googe wrote:And a liquid can't remove particles.
What about a water pipe for smoking ? Or a bong or hooka pipe ?
If you've ever run rum through lava you'll understand, the amount of crap the lava sucks up is amazing. Like I've always said, I believe lava or any packing with the ability to soak works.good compared to a hard surface. That extra cleanliness is evident.
From what members are saying, no doubt lava rock works great, but I'm scared to use it. Need to do more research.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Danespirit »

francis wrote:
googe wrote:And a liquid can't remove particles.
What about a water pipe for smoking ? Or a bong or hooka pipe ?

You are merely holding back smoke particles with the water, they are in there.
If you've ever run rum through lava you'll understand, the amount of crap the lava sucks up is amazing. Like I've always said, I believe lava or any packing with the ability to soak works.good compared to a hard surface. That extra cleanliness is evident.
From what members are saying, no doubt lava rock works great, but I'm scared to use it. Need to do more research.
You shouldn't be Francis, it works just great. :wink:
On you question with the thumper.
A thumper acts like a second distilation, you can somewhat compare it with one plate.
I am about to run a single big bubbleplate below my column, which should give a similar result as a inline thumper.( i will post results).
I believe inline thumpers work different than side by side because of the heat transfer is direct. But that's for another thread.
That's also my thinking, Rockchucker...the termal transfer, makes it more efficient.
And running a thumper/plate below SSP, would definatly result in better product.
I also think one could get away with a shorter column and still have a high ABV that way.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by francis »

If a thumper is acting like a flooded column, we could help it keep a gradient either by plates, or by packing.

Since the thumper is on the ground, weight is less of an issue. Perhaps the round pebbles from river bottoms they sell for driveways.

Also play with the height to diameter ratio of thumpers.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by rad14701 »

francis wrote:If a thumper is acting like a flooded column, we could help it keep a gradient either by plates, or by packing.

Since the thumper is on the ground, weight is less of an issue. Perhaps the round pebbles from river bottoms they sell for driveways.

Also play with the height to diameter ratio of thumpers.
This topic isn't about thumpers so let's not drag things further in that direction... And if you do some research here you just might discover that a packed thumper was attempted several years ago, or at least I seem to recall a topic along those lines... When you read every post made here these things tend to cling to the gray matter... :wtf:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

Back to packing topics,
francis wrote: no doubt lava rock works great, but I'm scared to use it. Need to do more research.
You would worry about rock that was super heated, melted down and quickly cooled but,
francis wrote:Perhaps the round pebbles from river bottoms they sell for driveways.
You would consider using rocks that have been filtering the toxins from the river bottom for the past century? :think:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by thecroweater »

DS You might be interested to know that an Armagnac still has as part of its typical design one large bubble cap plate in the top of the boiler below the column. Although this design is over 200 years old its still used so it must work well (at least for that purpose) :thumbup:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by pulsetech »

I think if the Spp doesn't work above 4 plates that I will try it with 3, 2 and 1. Very easy to do on my rig. I still think it should work better over plates but only testing will tell.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Odin »

Plates under an SPP packed column will limit the amount of total gasses/reflux in that packed column. Most of the water is already stripped out, right? And returned to the boiler. Less gasses in the packed section, less liquid at the bottom of the packed column => higher HETP AKA less efficient packing.

Other take on it: what can a plate do in - say - 3 inches? One distillation? An SPP packed column can do, when directly mounted on a boiler, 4 or 5 redistillations on a relatively lower ABV charge (<30%).

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by pulsetech »

I think the amount of vapour will be the same. But the purity of the vapour should be higher. It should be like having an spp packed column on a boiler with a 92abv + charge. But in reality it's only a 9% charge.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by thecroweater »

ok just to be clear on this reflux packing under a standard plated column will not work, it will not make a neutral spirit or significantly raise the ABV. This is not a theory but a repeated result by quite a number of guys and there are a bunch of good reasons why it doesn't work . A 5 or less plate trayed column will by design retain most of the flavour delivered to it just for one. Now a reflux module directly under the Reflux condenser will work like a CM reflux still with the added advantage of having high ABV vapour delivered to the packing but as previously stated it is still highly flavoured so although it can run through much faster than a typical reflux still there will need to be a whole lot more cooling with the RC to strip the flavour out. Some ppl have bitched about their results running their flute in a hybrid configuration carrying over some residual flavour. I would hazard a guess that it was simply run through too fast to adequately strip to their desired result
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by pulsetech »

I just 're read odins post. I didn't catch the he said under the plates first time around. My packed section is on top of the plates. I Dont see it working under the plates at all.
I have been quite happy with how the packed section over 4 plates strips the flavour but it needs to be run slow. I'm hoping with more effective (efficient is a confusing term in this regard) packing that I can keep the product the same or better but be able to run faster. Ideally as fast as I can run on a single run rum or whiskey run.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

He said plates under the column. I had good results with a single bubble ball under a tall column of lava rock. Haven't tried it with SPP. What he says makes sense though. One plate takes up a lot more room than the equivalent of a couple plates in packing.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Odin »

Thanks Hound!

... so, yes, it makes sense to put a packed column on top op a plated rig you have. Because you had a rig for whiskey but also want to make vodka every now and then.

... but from the other perspective ... if you have a column with an advanced packing, why put plates under that column?

Two ways of looking at the same thing create two different outcomes. Packing beefs up a plated system, but not the other way around. I guess that's a pretty good extract of what Mash Rooky wanted to tell us to start with.

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by pulsetech »

I still think that a plate will do some of the heavy lifting. I'm happy to do a test run with my 20 inch packed section alone and then with 1 plate under. I'm pretty sure it will be better with the plate. Sure if you have 20 or 30 effective plates worth of packing then it's going to be less noticeable bit still a additional distillation per plate.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Angel_Kefka »

I'm sure your test will show packing over a plate ends up improving over just the same amount of packing.

What I wonder is this. how much space is the plate section taking up? Are you better off with the plate or adding that much more packed area? Would be tougher to test though.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Odin »

My experience with SPP shows me it gives, near the bottom an HETP of around 1 centimeter. So a plate - to be just as efficient - should be no higher than that in this comparison. But - on another note - this topic is about column packing, not about plates. Back on track?

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by myles »

Angel_Kefka wrote:I'm sure your test will show packing over a plate ends up improving over just the same amount of packing.

What I wonder is this. how much space is the plate section taking up? Are you better off with the plate or adding that much more packed area? Would be tougher to test though.
Not really contesting the advantages the plate gives to the packing. However, replacing that plate with an equivalent height of additional packing? That would most likely be an even bigger improvement. Assuming you are aiming for neutral.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Bagasso »

myles wrote:Assuming you are aiming for neutral.
pulsetech wrote:I'm hoping with more effective (efficient is a confusing term in this regard) packing that I can keep the product the same or better but be able to run faster.
thecroweater wrote:Some ppl have bitched about their results running their flute in a hybrid configuration carrying over some residual flavour.
I always thought plates/flutes were for flavored distillates. Seems pulsetech is about to become one of the people thecroweater is talking about because you are looking at the wrong tool for the job.

On topic, I posted, in another thread, about some lava rocks being natural zeolites and didn't even seem to make a blip on the radar. Zeolites of course filter by adsorption which happens to be exactly what activated carbon does. I know activated carbon seems to be a trigger for some but, physics doesn't care about personal biases.

Packing a column with AC granules or even just charcoal chunks might work just as good or maybe even better than lava rocks.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

Bagasso wrote: Packing a column with AC granules or even just charcoal chunks might work just as good or maybe even better than lava rocks.
If you can keep it from breaking up and contaminating the distillate this might be an interesting idea. Seems like it would break down in the column though.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Bagasso »

Hound Dog wrote:If you can keep it from breaking up and contaminating the distillate this might be an interesting idea. Seems like it would break down in the column though.
I have some carbon granules that has been moved around, shaken in distillate and microwaved for a couple of years know and, while they do leave a little dust behind every time, they are still in good shape.

It would be on the rising side so any dust would just fall into the boiler and I have a hard time imagening something that heavy being carried by the vapor into the distillate.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by pulsetech »

Not worried about it being the wrong tool just trying to get the best out of what I have. Isn't that what it's all about ?
Anyways back on topic. Has anyone put any thought into stainless steel honeycomb ?
this stuff is used in kitchen filters
to me the structure looks like it could work well.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Bagasso »

pulsetech wrote:Not worried about it being the wrong tool just trying to get the best out of what I have. Isn't that what it's all about?
Yes and no.

You asked and said you want to be able to push more distillate through the plate/packing combo and someone says people are complaining that doing that leaves a distillate that is less than neutral.

"I want to build it to prove it to myself" is as valid an answer as any. No need to justify it.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

Bagasso wrote:
Hound Dog wrote:If you can keep it from breaking up and contaminating the distillate this might be an interesting idea. Seems like it would break down in the column though.
I have some carbon granules that has been moved around, shaken in distillate and microwaved for a couple of years know and, while they do leave a little dust behind every time, they are still in good shape.

It would be on the rising side so any dust would just fall into the boiler and I have a hard time imagening something that heavy being carried by the vapor into the distillate.
If they are big enough to use as packing (too small would cause flooding) that would be a great experiment. Bet it would make a clean neutral. I dare ya! :esurprised:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Bagasso »

Hound Dog wrote:If they are big enough to use as packing (too small would cause flooding) that would be a great experiment. Bet it would make a clean neutral. I dare ya! :esurprised:
The stuff I have looks like pellet feed and I can blow through a foot of 1.5" pipe filled with it easily. I run a potstill though so I couldn't compare it to a neutral from a refluxed column. Would be a better experiment if someone with a reflux still did it and even better still if it was someone who could compare it to lava rocks.

It definitly made my things-to-try list.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Odin »

Or send it my way. So I can set it up against my SPP run rig! Since there's a computer on the rig that monitors everything, we could find out a lot of stuff! Temperatures in and out. Amounts in liters per hours. Power management, so we can see if/when column flooding starts to determine reflux retention capabilities. Etc.

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