Lets Talk Column Packing

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Bagasso
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Bagasso »

Odin wrote:Or send it my way.
After looking up shipping rates to Europe (approx. $100), I will have to pass on sending $5 worth of AC pellets.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Odin »

That's expensive!

Bagasso, do you have a link to the pellets you have in mind, so I can check out parameters and maybe have some thoughts?

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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Odin wrote:Bagasso, do you have a link to the pellets you have in mind, so I can check out parameters and maybe have some thoughts?
They are just aquarium filter pellets that I picked up at a pet shop. We don't have brew shops. They look like these:
http://www.amazon.com/Pellet-Virgin-Coa ... B00XNXC70W
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Odin »

Okay ... sorry, I am not going there. They don't look very "inert" to me.

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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Odin wrote:Okay ... sorry, I am not going there. They don't look very "inert" to me.
It was just to give a general idea of what they look like and they gave some specs.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

This is the size lava rocks I use in a 3" column.
Lava Rock .jpg
Smaller chunks will pack too tightly and flood. I was thinking large chunks of a carbon of some sort, those compressed sticks didn't look appealing.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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Hound Dog wrote:Smaller chunks will pack too tightly and flood. I was thinking large chunks of a carbon of some sort, those compressed sticks didn't look appealing.
Like I said, it seemed to pass the pack and blow test just fine. I'm sure if you look around hard enough you can find alternatives. I've seen carbon balls covered in porous ceramic, some stuff called honeycomb blocks and even some guy talking about making ac balls out of pantyhose and granulated ac. OK, pantyhose are probably not still safe but I'm sure something can be though up, like ss mesh tea balls.

I see that the automatic reaction is to view this from the traditional packing point of view. It's my fault for not being more precise.

My point was that some of the lava rock might seem to be working better because it is also filtering. Now I poked around googe's posts and, if I'm reading it right, 1/4 of 30cm of packing ended up covered in crap. That's about 3 inches of filtering media. Place it above or below plates, add a section of it somewhere in your column, fill the riser in your potstill for "filtering". For all your other reflux needs follow SOPs.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by fqu8847 »

Input on this already long thread... I have been reading up on spp, lava rock, and other packings. I use scrubbies, my intention however is to delve further and question why spp works so well and if it could be duplicated by much cheaper/easier means. We have already discussed why it works so well, but could we duplicate it more easily?

So I ask this, ignoring that "star/spiral" shape of each individual strand has any effect, could we not take stainless steel mesh screen and achieve similar results? Take a section of screen, cut it into long strips, spiral those strips, then cut them into sections? Could this not imitate the spp effect while still being cheaper/easier?
Thoughts?
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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fqu8847 wrote:So I ask this, ignoring that "star/spiral" shape of each individual strand has any effect, could we not take stainless steel mesh screen and achieve similar results? Take a section of screen, cut it into long strips, spiral those strips, then cut them into sections? ....Thoughts?
You mean like this? It's sold by Dixon.
Dixon gauze ring packing.jpg
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by DAD300 »

There are lots of "other" industrial packings. There is nothing with better HETP.

There are things that are close!

Research lab packings in scientific lab suppliers and you will find a few, but very expensive. Research oil refinery supplies and you will find they only want to sell for huge 100'+ columns.

I have been scaling it for larger column dia. My next idea is 1/4"-1/2" dia SS tube cut to the correct length and chemically etched or tumbled to make the interior and exterior very rough. But the raw tube will still be expensive and require each piece be handled/cut.

Cost, will lead most back to trays being more practical.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by fqu8847 »

Hound dog... sort of. I meant that same deal but instead of rounds, do spirals of that same material. My thoughts are it would allow for the porosity and also for the spiral shape thus increasing surface area, heat stability, openings, and packability... I think?
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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fqu8847 wrote:Hound dog... sort of. I meant that same deal but instead of rounds, do spirals of that same material. My thoughts are it would allow for the porosity and also for the spiral shape thus increasing surface area, heat stability, openings, and packability... I think?
Kind of a "perforated helix"...I assume..?
I had similar thoughts, but caused to lack of perforated stainless plate in my workshop, I haven't tried it yet.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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Yes, danespirit! A perforated helix!! Wonderful explanation!!!! I am thinking of buying some mesh and making some but perforated sheet would be better, I believe!
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Danespirit »

My thoughts were to cut 0,5 or 0,7 mm stainless plate into strips of 8-10 mm.
Then cut the strips to 20-30 mm length, put them in a vice and twist them with a wrench.
The only issue I can see is that they could tangle into each other in the column...so maybe the length of them would have to be changed...worth a try.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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I was thing similar to those lines! I think putting them in the vise while they are long strips being careful to make tight twists and then cutting them would work also. And tangling in the column shouldn't make much difference as long as they can't crush under their own weight. It would be random packing after all. Was looking at perforated sheet today and it is expensive. But 1/8" holes on 3/16" centers punched on 20g ss should give a good result when done in the helix shape we're contemplating.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Danespirit »

I can follow your thinking..
The reason I would cut them prior to twisting them was that I could use the plate cutter (don't know if that's the right term), to cut them..
It would be easy and fast to produce a hundred pieces or more.
Of course, twisting them would take some time...it could be done quick, though.
1/8" holes would be a little more than 3 mm. The plate I intend to use has more like 1-2 mm holes (3/64" - 5/64").
Surface tension would hold some liquid with those small holes..at least that was my thinking. :idea:
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by fqu8847 »

Oh for sure! Ease of manufacture is paramount. I was looking at cost though and 1/8" had more open area than the 1/16"... it also costed about the same or less (not sure why) would like to have a little comparison against spp and see what size would theoretically be best. (Way above my abilities)
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by Danespirit »

A comparison with SSP, would be the ultimate test.
Unfortunately, I don't have some yet.
Even thought about fabricating a machine to make some...it would be a more humble version as the one Big Swede has constructed http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... s#p7219805 but one thing at the time.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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Hahahaha! Yeah that's the trouble... got so much to do and so much waiting to get it done! If only I was a millionaire and could spend my time on this!
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by BoisBlancBoy »

Ok guys I have been reading everything thread I can find on SPP and Lava rock. What I am thinking of doing is trying out lava rock first and if I don't like it I'll grind out making some SPP.

I know SPP seems to be the best as far as HETP. Now lava rock is about as cheap as it gets and works really well also. But what I can't find much of it, how often do you need to clean or replace lava rock after uses? I've read that the rock can become very stinky, the thought of having to replace or clean the rock often is a big turn off. For my column it would only be used in running low wines from a neutral based wash for neutral drink. Cleaner wash should keep the rock cleaner longer.

So please let me hear your experience with the Lava Rock.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by manu de hanoi »

BoisBlancBoy wrote:if I don't like it I'll grind out making some SPP.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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You can boil Scoria and it will be clean most don't on account it is normally so cheap and available it seems barely worth the trouble. Its about $30 for a six by four trailer full and I don't know how many thousands of times that would fill a packed sect but it would be many. Buying it buy the 5 gal bucket costs a lot more ($2) but the bucket will last ya a good few years
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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> So please let me hear your experience with the Lava Rock.

I liked lava rock's performance but didn't like its tendency to trap and retain tails' odor. Boiling old pieces or sizing new ones added more labor than I thought they were worth so I've switched to 3/8" raschig rings (not the typical 1/4" rings). Like marbles, the 3/8" rings are less prone to flooding and they only require a quick rinse to clean them after a run.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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greggn wrote:> So please let me hear your experience with the Lava Rock.

I liked lava rock's performance but didn't like its tendency to trap and retain tails' odor. Boiling old pieces or sizing new ones added more labor than I thought they were worth so I've switched to 3/8" raschig rings (not the typical 1/4" rings). Like marbles, the 3/8" rings are less prone to flooding and they only require a quick rinse to clean them after a run.
OK so let's think about this statement and what's going on here.
With all due respect why do you think raschig rings are clean and the Scoria not well as you pointed out contaminated ate being trapped (held back) by the Scoria/ lava stone, that is a problem , why? So basically the scoria is scrubbing your product and the contaminates are passing right through the raschig rings and that's a better result why?
To my thinking the funkier a packing gets the better the job its doing
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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thecroweater wrote:
greggn wrote:> So please let me hear your experience with the Lava Rock.

I liked lava rock's performance but didn't like its tendency to trap and retain tails' odor. Boiling old pieces or sizing new ones added more labor than I thought they were worth so I've switched to 3/8" raschig rings (not the typical 1/4" rings). Like marbles, the 3/8" rings are less prone to flooding and they only require a quick rinse to clean them after a run.
OK so let's think about this statement and what's going on here.
With all due respect why do you think raschig rings are clean and the Scoria not well as you pointed out contaminated ate being trapped (held back) by the Scoria/ lava stone, that is a problem , why? So basically the scoria is scrubbing your product and the contaminates are passing right through the raschig rings and that's a better result why?
To my thinking the funkier a packing gets the better the job its doing

I understand and mostly agree.

I'm making AG vodkas and don't collect or blend tails ... I shut down when tails begin to come across. So, given a choice of whether they're trapped in the lava rocks or left in the boiler I'd just as soon leave them in the boiler. All I ask of my packing is to facilitate reflux.
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

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thecroweater wrote:OK so let's think about this statement and what's going on here.
With all due respect why do you think raschig rings are clean and the Scoria not well as you pointed out contaminated ate being trapped (held back) by the Scoria/ lava stone, that is a problem , why? So basically the scoria is scrubbing your product and the contaminates are passing right through the raschig rings and that's a better result why?
To my thinking the funkier a packing gets the better the job its doing
I would have to agree with that..

I have been using same lava rock for the last year and half on a weekly bases in a 2" x 20" column with no smell issues.. ya once the run is finish there's a tail odour in the rocks.. but rinse with hot water from the tap and soak in water for a day or so, then drip dry.. they are good as new..

Unpacking and re-packing the column is not an issue with me, it only takes a minute to do.. and my spirit runs are just under five hours using 14 amps or 2650 watts on 26L - 35% boiler load for an average of 92%..

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by thecroweater »

Ah yes but you are assuming by the smell that the contamination is mainly tails. I fully understand that you may not wish to scrub tails for AG vodka but I would hazard to guess that nor did you when you were using the Scoria. If that is so then you have to concede that you were getting a cleaner product from the Scoria than the raschig rings and have changed only due to the maintenance advantage. Not saying that's wrong but the conclusion I would draw is you had a slightly better product with the former packing, true?
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by BoisBlancBoy »

Are there any of you that just flush the lava rock while leaving them in the column, instead of unpacking it?
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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by T-Pee »

Umm...wouldn't the fores blowing through either one do a reasonable job of cleaning well before even the heads come through?
It's not like you wouldn't like the aftertaste of fores. :eh:

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Re: Lets Talk Column Packing

Post by cranky »

I haven't taken mine out ever but I only run the big CM a couple times a year. My thoughts are that the smell of tails is there because that was the last thing through, other packings do the same thing from what I've read and I've seen pictures of used SPP that have so much build up on them that they look like they came from an ancient sunken ship and would be incapable of doing anything besides clogging up the column. I personally believe the fores will wash out any tails smell when you start the next run and haven't gotten any off tastes from them.
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