distilling on the grain

Ricky · Post by **Ricky** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:18 am

i have read many different opinions on how to do this and i have yet to determine the most feasable solution. i just read uncle remus's post on cloudy distillate and several ideas were suggested but most of them sounded like they may be sort of complicated to make by the average joe. absinthe kept bringing up the false bottom but seemed like nobody was interested. is this not a viable solution? if the screen was fine enough and would suspend the grain a couple of inches above the bottom it sounds like it would be simple and effective. my thought has been something that i read on this site but i havent heard of its use by anybody, just in theory. that is to seal the bottom of a keg with a flat plate and fill it with water or oil. it would provide a type of double boiler so that the heat applied to the bottom of the keg would not be so high to scorch the grain. oil would have a higher boiling point to help speed up the warmup but i dont know if it would get so hot that you might scorch the grains. i would really like to build myself a potstill that i could use to distill on the grain in a foolproof manner because as uncle remus said the flavor should be superior to any other method but i dont want to run the expenses up conciderably nor the time it takes to run the batch. my wife says i already spend to much time on this hobby anyway. it seems like this is a topic that could bring about a lot of discussion and i feel sure that there are enough intelligent minds on this site that we could figure out a simple, economical, and effective way to distill on the grains so that anybody with just a little bit of experiance could do it.

Post by **Tater** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:36 am

(but i dont want to run the expenses up conciderably nor the time it takes to run the batch. ) I understand money part but if times a problem id suggest another hobby.When I want to run grains i just sit my ss keg into a cut off 55 gallon barrel thats filled with water and I put twisted newpaper a round top to form a sealThis takes longer and have to add a little water back to barrel sometimes but youll never scorch you mash.

Fretman124 · Post by **Fretman124** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:32 am

I've been thinking (usually a problem)......would it be possible to suspend the grains is a cotton bag(I'm talking a couple coffe cans full) from the bottom of the column into the wash? Seems like it would be easy to do (my keg has a 7" opening in the top) As long as it doesn't touch the bottom there should be no burning. Or does the grains need to circulate better than they would suspended in a bag?

Ricky · Post by **Ricky** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:56 pm

tater i understand what you are saying. i guess what i meant about the time is that it takes me about 4hrs to run my 15gal potstill from start to finish with ujsm wash and i dont have a problem with that but i would hate to have to tend the still for say 8hrs. that might be the only way to acheive the result i am looking for. i can guaruntee that my wife would not care much for that. you know what they say "if mama aint happy aint nobody happy". fretman i dont have an answer to your question but it would make you think that you should get some flavors from suspending grain like that. maybe somebody with some experiance on this will chime in. also tater how long does it take you to run 15gal of say 10% wash in your double boiler settup? i might be getting bent out of shape over nothing if it doesnt take too long. i understand that patiants is very important to the quality of the final product but i think we are allways trying to build a better mousetrap. thanks for the imput so far.

Rebel_Yell · Post by **Rebel_Yell** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:08 pm

Ricky wrote
my thought has been something that i read on this site but i havent heard of its use by anybody, just in theory. that is to seal the bottom of a keg with a flat plate and fill it with water or oil. it would provide a type of double boiler so that the heat applied to the bottom of the keg would not be so high to scorch the grain. oil would have a higher boiling point to help speed up the warmup but i dont know if it would get so hot that you might scorch the grains.

seal the bottom of a keg with a flat plate and fill it with water or oil
Please do not do this. I do not know where you read this. It was NOT here.
It will go BOOOOMM!

Post by **Tater** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:26 pm

Takes about 1hr and 45 minutes to bring my still up to temp with lp burner Im using takes 3 to 3 1/2 hrs when using keg in cut off barrel on a warm day.Once stillin temp is reached run takes about same time to do either way.Old timers would stir mash with paddle till it reached stilling temp then cap and run .This will keep it from sticking /scorching if your real careful with your cooking.Have read in old days some would grease their stills to help with sticking

Ricky · Post by **Ricky** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:24 pm

http://homedistiller.org/equip/designs/doublewall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow check this out rebel yell. scroll down to the double walled boiler section and read. i try my best to listen to taters advice of "read,read,read" and it generally pays off. not to just be blowing sunshine up your _ _ _ there tater! tater the times you say it takes to do your run really doesnt seem to bad after all. 2 extra hrs for warmup isnt that bad. one thing i have noticed about the old timers is that they swore by the copper boiler because it didnt stick as bad and the furnace they used didnt expose the boiler to direct fire. they relied on the draw of the furnace to pull the heat from the fire up and around the boiler so that it was heated indirectly and therefore cut down the possibility of scorching the grains; not that it couldnt still happen though. i just got through measuring my keg and a 55gal drum and this might be the best way. i am still going to do some more research on sealing the bottom of the keg though.

Post by **Tater** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:55 pm

To much heat is to much heat doesnt have to be direct heat to scorch.And using a furnace not only can ya heat inderectly ya can also heat still on sides as well as bottem same as a double boiler.Just doesnt come apart where ya can hide it easy

On using oil in a sealed bottem wont work. Its gotta be able to expand.But have read somewhere where the approach of doing like in a car with a tube going to a overflow tank is something to ponder on .

Post by **Husker** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:10 pm

Ricky
http://homedistiller.org/equip/designs/doublewall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow check this out rebel yell. scroll down to the double walled boiler section and read. i

NOTE that in the design listed, the water is NOT in a sealed environment. There is a open water inlet, and a "nutted" hole used as air release during filling. I too have read this design, and plan on getting another keg to build with just this design. I have done a little distilling on the grain (simply tossed in a handfull of grain from UJSM run for each gallon. Turns out a very good product, but each time, my stripped product (strip run was the only place to put grains for me), I had a cloudy result. I am pretty sure I was getting some boil over, as I had a few grains in my worm (this was prior to getting my valved still head done). I do plan on giving this a shot again, but I also plan on getting a double boiler keg built.

H.

Rebel_Yell · Post by **Rebel_Yell** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:22 pm

Ricky wrote
http://homedistiller.org/equip/designs/doublewall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow check this out rebel yell. scroll down to the double walled boiler section and read.

I re-read the parent site. I pick up a little more each time. Thanks for the link Ricky. I think that you understand my caution. I want to ensure that all readers utilize caution.
There ain't nothing there about SEALING the bottom with a welded in plate.It has a pressure relief

Double Walled Boilers
Joe writes:

Single walled bottom still designs are good only for sugar mash distillation and unsuitable for distilling thick mashes or preparing absinth. With direct heating, and especially with internal heating of keg, local overheating can (and will) occur for highly viscous mashes (grappa, plum, apricot, apple, quince, etc.). The decomposition (burning) of mash produces a terrible taste and smell, hard to remove. If you try to polish the distillate, fruit taste and smell will disappear first.

It is a rather easy task to transform a keg to a safe, dual purpose, water bath type double bottom boiler. Generally a keg consists of the vessel itself, there is a lower and an upper skirt. Skirts are most cases welded to the vessel. If you close the lower skirt with a flat head (e.g. a 1/16"ss plate) and patch the went holes, you get a lower vessel for the water bath. For joining the head TIG, MIG or stick welding is best, but brazing is also possible. Patching the went holes you may use welding or brazing. Drill a ¼" hole on the side of lower vessel. Attach (braze) a ¼" pipe to the hole and have it run vertically to the top of the keg. Lace it through the upper skirt through a went hole and bend it to vertical position. Attach a proper safety valve (e.g. a weight type for pressure cooker ) on the upper end of pipe. When selecting the type of safety valve you have to consider the danger of implosion during cooling. At 180 degree from the ¼" pipe (on the opposite side of lower vessel) drill a ¼" hole and braze over the hole a ¼"nut. Close it with a heat resistant gasket and a ¼" flat head screw. This will be the bleeder. Perform bubble test on joints.

Filling: Remove the weight of safety valve, screw off the bleeder. Fill up the lower vessel through the safety valve body and ¼" pipe using a plastic hose. When water starts to flow from bleeder, stop filling, reinstall safety valve weight, fasten bleeder screw. During distillation process water bath temperature will be in the lower vessel slightly above 100 Celsius due the minor overpressure, but this has no detrimental effect. Check water level in lower vessel each time before using, by shaking the keg. According my experience refill is rarely needed. Annually descale lower vessel with vinegar. In case of using the keg in cold climate avoid freezing the water.

I have been using this construction for years without problem, quality of distillate improved dramatically. Of course, if you distil thick mashes a greater opening ( min. 6" diameter) is needed to fill and clean the keg.

mtnwalker2 · Post by **mtnwalker2** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:47 pm

Read in a post a good while back, a design for an oil heater for the bottom of a keg.

No it was not sealed, but had an expansion release tube attached up the side of the keg, and then away. This was only for emergencies, as say peanut oil, with boiling temps above 385 deg. F could do the trick at much lower temps. A temp. gauge and a thermostat controller would make a fairly safe double boiler. I would personally only attempt this outside at a reasonable distance from buildings!

But this is do-able, and relatively safe, if watched carefully. It won't go kaboom, but could go flash, if not monitered.

Ricky · Post by **Ricky** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:57 pm

my typing is horrible so i have a tendancy to simplify things as often as i can. maybe i should have been more detailed. husker if you get it done let us know. i have a 5gal boiler that could be converted like this and i am thinking about trying it on the small one first. tater i know what you mean about hideing it. thats the only reason i havent done it the old school way. so far the double boiler that you use seems to be the easiest and most effective method. if the oil deal is done you would have to use a preesure relief cap like on a car radiator so that when it cools it could create a vacuum and draw the oil back out of the resevoir. o yea it would also release pressure if it got to high. would take a lot of trial and error to figure out what the prime operating pressure would be.

Ricky · Post by **Ricky** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:03 pm

rebel yell i really had not thought a hole lot about my abbreviated post but i could see a newbe reading it and then go out and just seal the bottom off with no pressure relief and blow something up or even worse hurt himself. i guess we should all try to make our post as clear as we can because we would hate for anybody to get hurt even though if they read,read,read they would know better. but like tater says " you can lead the horse to water but you cant make him drink."

speedfreaksteve · Post by **speedfreaksteve** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:18 pm

When you guys distill on the grain do you distill with the full amount of grain used in the grainbill?

When distilling whiskey, what I do is take out most of my grain but leave about just under a pound in. Has worked good for me so far. Never had cloudy distillate problems either.

Uncle Remus · Post by **Uncle Remus** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:49 pm

The one time I did it I used the whole grain bill. The cloudy thing was easily removed... the whiskey is fantastic definitly one of my very best batches so far.

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:30 am

Uncle Remus I never successfully used a whole grain bill in mine, (learning curve mistakes...) and I never had the cloudiness either, but I can totally understand how you'd get a lot more oils by using all the grain. I have settled on about half the grain getting distilled. strictly trial and error...half works for me...

Ricky, its pretty easy to make a simple double boiler. There is a really common, cheap enameled steel stockpot that a common us keg fits into. about a quarter or a third of the keg will be surrounded by steam and the shape of the keg makes a natural tight and safe steam seal. If you wanna understand the basics of a good cheap steambath rig then check out a restaurant bain marie. your basic soup warmer. Sealing the bottom(vented) of a keg does not give you enough heated surface area. The more the better, but getting the bottom third exposed works great.

The false bottom is a bad idea. The grains are only the largest of the particles... Too many solids still make it down to the bottom can very easily scorch under very low flame. the grain bed stifles any convective movements and you'll get hot spots that burn. don't waste your time or mash.

I can strip in 4 to 8 hours. spirit runs take a few more hours. Its a lot of time, but the results...

Ricky · Post by **Ricky** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:33 pm

thanks jyd for this informative answer. the answer about the lack off surface area makes since. i should of thought of that. my keg is straight sided so i dont know how that boiler deal will work. i just aquired a steel drum with a diameter of 18.5 inches and my keg is 16 inches. i was thinking about cutting the barrel the height of the keg and doing the way tater suggested. i just hope that there will be enough water in it. i could also do an oil bath at a reasonable price if it doesnt take but 5gals or so to fill my barrel with the keg inside.at first i was sceptical of the time to do an on grain distill because i didnt think it would be worth it. everybody was complaining about how long it took but it seems that time is different for different people. my normal spirit run is about 4hrs and if i can do it in 6hrs on the grain and get a noticibly better product then this is a no brainer. i felt like i should give it a try after uncle remus was bragging about his grain distill. after all "WHATS TIME TO A HOG"

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:42 am

All the kegs I've seen have two rings that are a little bigger diameter than the top or bottom sections. My keg sits right down in the pot to that ring. It fits snug and doesn't burp out much steam when running. I only have to fill it after about 8 hours running. I've mentioned this before, coors kegs have smaller top and bottom diameters. These are real easy to set into a cut off straight sided keg to make a great double boiler rig. don't forget to insulate and be careful... don't run it dry and watch out for that steam...

Ricky · Post by **Ricky** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:30 pm

tater i want to thank you and everybody else that has helped me along the way. the barrel for a double boiler works real nicely. i am collecting tails as we speak. the warmup was about 2.5hrs for a 10% 8gal wash. i have been collecting for 3hrs and still at about 50%. kept 48 ozs. for drinking. i stopped collecting body at 70%. made for the best whiskey i have made to date. the wash was a cooked sour mash corn with the heads from the first run added. i am well pleased. the wife even said she liked it which was a big surprise.

Ricky · Post by **Ricky** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:36 pm

jyd i understand what you are saying. i found a 30?gal barrel which leaves 1.25in. on each side after i set my keg in it . the amount of water i use is about 7 gal. this takes the water level up to the top ring of the keg. after 3hrs of runing the water level has dropped about 2in. and i am sure the wash level has droped at least that much so things seem to be working out preety good.thanks for the help.

gw1228 · Post by **gw1228** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:28 am

i just completed my first good all corn mash!! was very good -- even straight out of still -- but the yield was low compared to sugar runs.......has anyone ever tried to add neutral alcohol to corn wash on say the last couple of days of the ferment .......... i am wondering if the corn flavor would carry over or if the neutral would give the corn a funny flavor........i see lots complaining about adding sugar to the corn wash but this would have all of the sugar's bad qualities stripped out.

Post by **Tater** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:38 am

details?

gw1228 · Post by **gw1228** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:25 am

I ask this in Theory Section because I don't want to waste a corn run if someone has already tried this and it didn't work. I have read lots of post but cant find anything quite the same as what I am suggesting.

Take 15 pounds cracked corn for a five gallon carboy cook at say 180 for an hour then cool to 150 and add enzymes or malt to convert. then pitch yeast when cool... do everything as a normal pure corn run. let ferment for week then when it is finished fermenting add half gallon of neutral alcohol let the neutral sit in carboy with mash. this shouldnt hurt the mash becasue the fermentation is already completed. after it has set for a few days then do a stripping run as you usually would and then do the second run. but instead of the typical yield of say 1/3 gallon drinkable per five gallon mash -- the output should increase by the 1/2 gallon that was added (i have a few gallons of neutral spirits that came from sugar runs a few months back but havent used yet -- liked the corn flavor so much more that thought this might be a good use for the neutral spirit and a way to up my yield -- did a double distillation of the sugar run in reflux still up to 93% then sits on carbon for a couple of weeks, filter through cotton balls to remove all carbon)

I have found lots of posts that talk about adding tails back but none take a sugar heart neutral to add to abv. Sorry if this is stupid.

Uncle Remus · Post by **Uncle Remus** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:57 am

I don't think you'd ruin your corn mash by doing this....but why not just mix some neutral spirit with your finished corn distillate. I think the result would be the same with less distilling.

gw1228 · Post by **gw1228** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:27 am

I just thought it might soak up more of the corn flavor from mash. instead of watering down the finished corn taste. dont know still learning, every batch i seem to learn something else.

Post by **Husker** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:39 am

I also think it might pull in a little extra grain flavor, adding the neutral to the wash, after full fermentation, and waiting a few days/week to strip. As UR mentioned, it may be no different from simply cutting the final product with neutral, but I certainly think it would pull more flavor.

This may be much like macerating neutral in fruit or other product.

gw, before you try this, you might want to add a pound or so of raw corn meal (or even try to "cook" it a little). If you do this (in any form), then be sure to post to the rest of us, just how it worked out (compared to simply pulling off multiple strip runs, and doing a "larger" product run with combined low wines you stripped out.

H.

gw1228 · Post by **gw1228** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:30 am

It will be a couple of weeks till I have time to start another corn run, (got a buddy getting hitched so got to do wedding stuff next couple of weekends) but I will let you know how it turns out.

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:17 pm

Commercial blended whisky's are mixed with neatral spirits

hornedrhodent · Post by **hornedrhodent** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:00 am

="gw1228"
has anyone ever tried to add neutral alcohol to corn wash on say the last couple of days of the ferment .......... i am wondering if the corn flavor would carry over or if the neutral would give the corn a funny flavor.

The addition of a large amount of ethanol would kill off the yeast and stop the fermentation on the spot - just like making sweet fortified wines like Port.
Let it ferment out completely, add whatever you want for flavouring - pot still - let us know how it compared to the same process without the pre distillation steeping.

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:42 pm

This was my solution to distilling on the grain. Scroll down to my pictures of "Double boiler"

Home Distiller

distilling on the grain

distilling on the grain

Re: distilling on the grain

Distilling on the grain