Cost analysis?

Loki · Post by **Loki** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:50 pm

Has anyone broken down the costs of manufacturing 1lt. of 95% alcohol using a 25lt fermenter/still? I am trying to cut costs on a liquor my friends and I make using everclear.

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:39 pm

It'll take a long time to be able to do it yourself for less money than you can buy it. I think that a home distiller can, with practice, make better, but not cheaper...

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:01 am

I've figured out that my cost per liter for whiskey (UJSM) is about 2-2.5 Euro. That's definitley less expensive than buying at the store -- and tastier. The cost goes down using real grain mashes, but not much. It's hard to calculate the amount of propane I use, so I just guestimated.

That said, the amount of time put into this hobby is where the "expense" comes in. If I were to calculate my hours as billable, the cost of the whiskey would go up to somewere like 150 Euro per liter, and that's being kind to the client, i.e. billing by the minute rather than 15 minute increments.

Aidas

rangaz · Post by **rangaz** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:37 am

I think I worked out about 2-3AUD a bottle of 40% vodka using sugar wash. Family farms wheat, barley and oats with barley being the predominant. I haven't tried mashing yet but when I do, I will only be covering the heating costs as I can set aside a few bags for alcohol as long as I Make some for dad. Should drop back to about 50c a bottle of 40%. Either way it beats the hell out of 20bucks a 'cheap' bottle of vodka in the stores as we get taxed heavily for alcohol.

CoopsOz · Post by **CoopsOz** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:54 am

I agree, here in Australia, even by using sugar and a turbo you can do much better...I calculate about $3.30 a litre (that's after carbon filtering). You can cut your costs by using bakers yeast, tomato paste etc. That is much cheaper than anything you can buy here. You can get a cheap bottle of no name blended scotch for about 20 bucks. You can't buy a cheaper bottle here.

old_red_eye · Post by **old_red_eye** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:47 am

These are my costs for 95% alcohol in Canadian dollars.

StillSpirits Turboyeast.................$4.99
8kg sugar @ $0.84......................$6.72
water.........................................$0.00
electricity 12kwh @ 7.16c.............$0.86
tax @ 14%..................................$1.72

total..........................................$14.29

Approx 4 liters of product per 5 gal mash

equals.......................................$3.57 per liter

If you were to sell it, around here it goes for $20 per 750 ml.

I forgot to mention that a quart (750ml) of store bought Canadian whisky
or Captain Morgan Rum at 40% sells for about $22.

Also, I am NOT recommending selling any type of moonshine.

Post by **Tater** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:57 am

My rum cost me about 12 USA dollors for 3 gallons 100 proof.20lb sugar is $8 bucks 2 gallons molasses $2.40 Rest in yeast and propane

Cruiser · Post by **Cruiser** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:41 pm

My costings are (in Aussie dollars):

14kg supermarket white sugar: $10.50
1 x 200g packet of Stillspirits Turbo Express yeast: $7.00
48lts water: $0.00
Electricity: 19.8kwh x $0.14 = $2.77
Total: $20.27
Yield: 8.1lts @95%

Cost per litre: $2.50
Cost per flavoured 700ml bottle at 40%: about $1.00

Most commercial rums cost $25.00 per bottle so mine's looking pretty good even factoring in labour and equipment costs. I save a fair bit by spreading one pack of yeast across 2 x 25lt fermenters.

As an aside, the local pub down my way is charging $9.50 (over the bar) for a 330ml bottle of Jack Daniels and cola

Cruiser.

birdwatcher · Post by **birdwatcher** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:23 am

old_red_eye wrote:These are my costs for 95% alcohol in Canadian dollars.

StillSpirits Turboyeast.................$4.99
8kg sugar @ $0.84......................$6.72
water.........................................$0.00
electricity 12kwh @ 7.16c.............$0.86
tax @ 14%..................................$1.72

total..........................................$14.29

Approx 4 liters of product per 5 gal mash

equals.......................................$3.57 per liter

If you were to sell it, around here it goes for $20 per 750 ml.

I forgot to mention that a quart (750ml) of store bought Canadian whisky
or Captain Morgan Rum at 40% sells for about $22.

Also, I am NOT recommending selling any type of moonshine.

I was not paying attention to electricity costs in my zeel to produce 95% ethanol, using converted hotwater heaters for boilers.

She Who Must Be Obeyed brought the fact that our electricity bill took a considerable jump during this period. I checked this out with Ontario Hydro.

I was unaware of onpeak/offpeak rates. Wow!

On-peak hours, 9.7 cents per kwh.

Off-peak hours, 3.4 cents per kwh.

Off peak hours include entire weekends and from 10 PM to 7 AM during weekdays.

Those using electricity for heating might be advised to check this out in your area.

Also re your yeast costs. I use regular bakers yeast bought in bulk at any good health food store and its nice and fresh, because of high turnover from breadmakers. Far less expensive and same results if your interest is making ethanol exclusively.

I can't speak for the whisky/rum makers. The taste question may be an issue here.

Post by **Husker** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:37 am

birdwatcher wrote:I can't speak for the whisky/rum makers. The taste question may be an issue here.

If you are sour mashing, then your yeast cost plummets towards zero, the more mashes you make from your original culture.

My last run was 14 generations, with a total yeast cost of $1.90 (2 packets at .95 each). So each generation cost only about $0.14 (which is hard to even worry about).

H.

bushido · Post by **bushido** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:02 am

For all of y'all north of the border here in canada, beware that hydro flags your account whenever your bill jumps a certain % over your normal bill. It is nothing to see a meter reader walk around back to see if you have a new hot tub or pool installed at their next reading, and if the bill fluctuates widely over a period of monthes, they will knock on your door and ask you if are aware of this. If you say yes, they will ask why. If you say no, they schedule you for a meter calibration, which means they want in your home to make sure you have load balance on your electrical panel (of course they will be looking around). If you refuse this request, you will have a sheriff at your door the next time they show up. I know this without a doubt, no matter what anyone says, because it has happened to me in two different locations.
commercial buildings is the way to go for heavy electrical usage.
This is why I am against electric heating if you burn alot.
Chance favors only the prepared mind

old_red_eye · Post by **old_red_eye** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:52 pm

No offence to you bushido but you are being quite an alarmist over nothing.

My electric usage per month varies between 1000 kwh in summer to 2500 kwh in winter.
I assert that this is typical for a modest house in my area and I don't even rely on electric heat.
Those with electric heat see even more winter usage then me.

Saying all that, my still uses about 12 kwh per run. If I run it 10 times per month,
that's 120 kwh. Hardly significant to my electric usage.
Certainly not enough to sound any "alarm bells".

olcarguy · Post by **olcarguy** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:25 pm

Some months I have my welders going full blast in my shop....Other times they are not used for months at a time.... I have never had Hydro here other than to read the meters, never had them inspect or even question my usage and I am in a home with a backyard garage. Where are you located bushido?

newts · Post by **newts** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:10 pm

After 5 runs of U J S M I had enough whiskey for my use. My next requirement was rum
Left a 1 1/2" layer of corn and yeast from my last wash in fermenter, added 2 liters of molassis and 4 kgs of brown sugar to corn back setof last distillation.
I added this when cooled and airated to fermenter with clean tap water to 25 ltrs. The wash stared within an hour and I finished within a week .
A good tasty rum produced ( my taste any way )
My point with only 7 grams of bakers or champaigne yeast and appropriate consumables it is possible to make all the spirit flavours I need. I can even make neutral spirit by using my reflux. just for the cost of the sugars and heating.
Regards Newts.

bushido · Post by **bushido** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:26 pm

I am in Ont. also. If you want more specific than that, pm me olcarguy. Cell phones and computers do not instill faith in me. I have done tons of security work, right from bouncing to security sweeps for the clubs. I've built and swept for microburst transmitters, etc, etc. I can hook up a scanner to a dtmf to a laptop, and voila, I will capture every call you make wirelessly, translate your card numbers through the dtmf, and bam, I could own what you have. Your account numbers, everything you think is safe.
So no, I don't think I am screaming the sky is falling, and I have had this happen to me (the hydro thing), twice. And yes, I realize you can explain it, but if you have a gas meter, no pool, no workshop garage, no hot tub, it is hard to explain a $500 hydro bill every billing period for the last 6 mo. And I know for sure how they got their warrant, because I went and got my own deposition (acting as my own attorney). And if you plead not guilty, they must bring forth their sources also. You have the right to face your accusers in court. This cannot be denied you.
Now mind you, most here do not fall into this bracket, but I lay 10:1 that a good 5% do. And that is really the people I am speaking to here.
The hobbyist do not have to worry about this. As old_red_eye stated, you will not consume enough electricity to ring any bells.
Looking at this now, I don't even know if I should post this, but I will anyway and let the mods decide if it's appropriate for their board.

Post by **Tater** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:28 pm

lot of power usage thats on and off with timers no doubt could get ya looked at.

bushido · Post by **bushido** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:39 pm

yeah, exactly Tater.

Never had that problem in this trade, but again, I don't use hydro, so I've never worked out what it would be in dollars. I may just be passin' gas here.

MikeyT · Post by **MikeyT** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:19 pm

What's that old addage? If ya have to ask, then you can't afford it??

I figure the 4 or 5 gallons I intend to make is going to cost me something like $100 / gallon.

But, hey! The day you quit learning something new is the day you die. And, if you don't die, then you might as well.

Post by **bourbonbob** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:38 am

Mine works out at $2.50- $3.00AU per litre, slightly more if I use propane. I buy my sugar in 25 kilo bags, which works out 35% cheaper than buying at the super market. I think if it cost $20 per litre I would still do it. I get a lot of satisfacation from making my own and a more superior product.

possum · Post by **possum** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:03 pm

Most of these estimtes are not including time spent brew/still/cleanup , but ok no prob.
The cost of fermenters, cleaning (bleach or whatever), solder,and copper, all of that stuff.
Not to be a nitpicker, (well yea to be a nitpicker) but the fixed costs are a bit high for makin a still and stuff. After that is done, then the cost is pretty low.

Ok You'ns can ignore me now.

speedfreaksteve · Post by **speedfreaksteve** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:48 pm

Believe me that there's a vast range of electricity use between different households in Canada. Some people still heat their house 100% electric. Many people have 2 fridges in their basement from the 60's that use more electricity than the rest of their house even though they don't even realize it.

My friend does welding and machining in his garage as a hobby. You should see his electrical bill compared to mine, and I use an electric burner to run one of my stills about 36 hours a week sometimes.

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:31 pm

So, I have compared the cost of materials, the cost of equipment and the cost of time away form the family. It is a lot of money. But after a hard days work, the relaxation I get from watching something I built go "drip","drip and "drip". It is priceless.
I am the type that my mind never stops. I have a constant one sided conversation in my head from the time I am conscious in the morning until I pass out at night, whatever hour that may be, The drip, drip, drip, soothes that. The distraction is priceless. I give most of my stuff away. I don't drink too much because my usage became too much of a burden once upon a time and I changed my habits. Two new kids will do that to a person. What is it worth to you?
For me it is a bargain if I can find enough people to keep my locked liquor cabinet empty enough that I can keep filling it.
If you are making a profit it is a business. If you are not making a profit then it is a hobby. Choose one.

mtnwalker2 · Post by **mtnwalker2** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:26 pm

Pint,

Have friends who are golf addicts. They spend a lot more money on eq., greens fees, cart etc. than I will ever spend in this hobby. Thier 19 hole isn't as well stocked as mine, and they go to share their days adventure- boreing.

When they offer their prize golf ball or putter for inspection, and I offer some of my hobby, guess which gets the most attention.

For me this is a great hobby. I plan on a time vault for the kids, that they can open a bottle, labeled and sighned, and dated and perhaps a personal note many, many years down the road.

How woubra you folks feel, if you could open a 30 year old jug of whisky or rum, or brady or whatever, that your dad or grandad had laid down, sighned and sealed? I even have a 5 gal. bucket of beeswax to do the sealing.

So my vote is cast. A great hobby, shareing with others trials and adventures, and sometimes failures.

birdwatcher · Post by **birdwatcher** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:40 am

I agree with Pinto and mtn.

Compare the cost and payback of our hobby with golf, fishing, boating etc; you have no contest.

and, let's face it, you are also keeping your brain working. This hobby is science. How do I make my equipment better?; how do I make my product better?; what is the latest inovation on this website today, tomorrow?

I'm convinced, now convince your wife.

Have a good day/evening all.

G

msrorysdad · Post by **msrorysdad** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:28 am

In the past month and a half I built a new keg still, with two columns, and have run 5 or so runs. So here goes... I've spent close to 1400$ US

on parts, gas, and ingredients. My time off I'll carge as straight time, low estimate, seven days, not counting research hours, on hours, about 1400$ US

, once again this is low ballin the estimates to make me feel better. So, you can see this hobby adds up. The thing is I will pass my still on to my kid, I'll have one till I pass. The satisfaction one gets by learning a useful craft, well, you can eat a fish, but did you make it? It's a I did it myself deal. Once again This is a hobby for tinkerers. 2800$US

for a good drink, I say Cheers!

I got to use the cute faces for free, that makes it worth it

Uncle Remus · Post by **Uncle Remus** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:36 am

Okay heres a quick cost analisis on making rum in Canadian $$:

1-40kg bag of golden sugar = 45.00
60 lbs of propane = 51.00
ec 1118 yeast ~ = 10.00
misc. = 20.00

TOTAL: =126.00

Misc. costs include a bit of molassis (which I got dirt cheap) Lemon juice , yeast nutrients, cleaning supplies etc.

Out of this we will get 44 litres of drinkable spirit at ~43%.
So cost per litre is ~ $2.86

Time wise? My partner and I probably spent at least 24 hours to make this much rum. Probably 24 hours is on the lean side probably more like 30.

So if I'm going to put a dollar figure on my time, then no it's not economicaly sensible. But the time spent is enjoyable. We often cook up some burgers or make up a pot of chili or something, have a few drinks, throw a few darts, tell a few lies. It's a very social thing for my partner and myself and a few very select guests who pop by once in a while.

To me this hobby is priceless.

Cruiser · Post by **Cruiser** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:10 pm

The cost (about $200) of my home-built keg still was recouped in the first batch.

The cost of my oak cask (about $300) took a bit longer.

Most of the other stuff (fermenters, thermometers, etc) are left overs from my beer brewing days.

Even pricing my time at $30/hour I'm still doing it cheaper than commercial product.

And, like others have said, even if it were dearer I'd still do it for the satisfaction and interest. The product is smoother than any bought stuff as well

Post by **schnell** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:58 pm

i like mtnwalker2's idea. that would be a REAL legacy.

That's true love for your descendants.

rangaz · Post by **rangaz** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:11 am

well, I've collected enough copper and assorted parts now to make a 50lt keg still with interchangable pot and reflux heads (reflux tower 1.7m 2" inline, pot 5m long air cooled condenser with 20cm 1.5"head, all heads are copper). Total cost, several hours of scavenging and phone calls. The only things I'm going to have to buy are 4xSS bolts 2xSS mixing bowls, some SS scrubbers and silver solder, total cost $30.

As for fermenters and hydrometers, also scrounged and acquired for free. I only had to pay for my alcometer, which are incredibly expensive at $30.

As for the cost of time, it is large but we are doing what we enjoy, hence the title hobby therefore I find it hard to say that it should be factored in. It is the way we like to spend our free time that would probably be wasted on something else anyway.

newts · Post by **newts** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:55 pm

I agree with Rangas."Its a hobby", do you factor in your time when playing a round of golf.
How much do we charge ourself for the time taken to travel to the bottle shop for the bottle we needed if distilling was not our hobby.
Gee that was a dumb statement, trouble is I wasted to much theoretic money on the composition to just delete it.

Just have fun .I am
Newts

Home Distiller

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