Condenser Controlled Columns

[fafrd]

fafhd wrote

Got it, thanks. My takeaway (from your post as well as those of kimbodius and Manc are that parallel cooling will work fine but that the coolant exiting the product condenser is still cool enough to cause the needed condensation in the reflux condenser (meaning it conserves coolant water waste and is also easier to plumb).

Hi fafhd I've found that the reflux condenser works better if I have the coolant input at the bottom exiting the top. I've tried the other way which it should be cooler water furthest from the packing but it doesn't seem to be as efficient as air gets trapped even if you lift exit pipe above the level of the reflux condenser

Hope that makes sense

Lee

Thanks for the heads-up but I'm not sure I understand - did you mean to write "lift the reflux condenser above the level of the exit pipe"? (the opposite of what you actually typed)

If so, I'm srill not understanding where "air gets trapped" and what problem it causes.

Feeding coolant into the RC bottom-first should result in faster/more efficient reflux condensation butbI'm not sure how it would impact the stability of the steady-state gradients being established in reflux mode prior to cracking open the output port (lifting the RC).

Where is the "air trapping" you've referred to occurring?

[still_stirrin]

... did you mean to write "lift the reflux condenser above the level of the exit pipe"? (the opposite of what you actually typed)...

I think what he’s talking about is the water outlet to the reflux condenser....if you loop it up higher than the condenser (coils & inlet) the exiting water will be sure to push all the air out of the coil, keeping it full (and functional).
ss

[Manc]

Hi fafrd

First of all sorry for getting your name wrong. I've took some photos. This is how I use to have the blue tube from the product condenser (on the left) going to the reflux condenser on the right. It enters at the top and then exits from the bottom the red tube. I thought that if I raised the red tube above the height of the inlet (blue pipe) the reflux condenser would fill with water but air seems to get trapped in the reflux condenser and reduces the efficiency.[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201806 ... 9c0cb3.jpg[/img]

[Manc]

Thanks still_stirrin I was typing the last reply as you posted how you put it makes more sense and what I thought but it didn't seem to work for me don't know why.
I know do it like the picture below and it works better I have read something on here about someone else having the same problem hope this clarifies

Lee[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201806 ... df0fb8.jpg[/img]

[fafrd]

Hi fafrd

First of all sorry for getting your name wrong. I've took some photos. This is how I use to have the blue tube from the product condenser (on the left) going to the reflux condenser on the right. It enters at the top and then exits from the bottom the red tube. I thought that if I raised the red tube above the height of the inlet (blue pipe) the reflux condenser would fill with water but air seems to get trapped in the reflux condenser and reduces the efficiency

Gotcha, so you're talking about air teapped within the coolant lines, not the vapor oathways of the still. I don't know whether you are using tap water of a pump for your coolant, but I wpuld strogly advise to purge your coolsnt lines of all bubbles before starting your still. Any bubbles in lines with liw flow = a nighmare...

On another topic, that is a gorgeous rig you've got but is it a CCVM still?

Seems as though your product port is on top of your reflux condensor (elbow) instead of below your RC (typically using a T).

Is this CCVM or a pot-still with 2-stage condensation? Or is this maybe what they call a CM still (coolant-managed)?

[fafrd]

... did you mean to write "lift the reflux condenser above the level of the exit pipe"? (the opposite of what you actually typed)...

I think what he’s talking about is the water outlet to the reflux condenser....if you loop it up higher than the condenser (coils & inlet) the exiting water will be sure to push all the air out of the coil, keeping it full (and functional).
ss

As a winemaker and beer brewer, I deal with siphons and bubbles all of the time - I would strongly advise purging all air from the coolant lines before firing up the still. One shouldn't be relying on bubbles 'floating up' to get the coolant lines purged of air.

If I decide to use a pump to recirculate coolant that I am concerned may not have sufficient pressure to purge the coolant lines of air, I'd go ahead and invest in some nore tubing and a T so I could purge using tap pressure before seitching over to the pump for cooland circulation.

Tap water should have plenty of pressure to purge those coolant lines of all air and bubbles no matter which configuration they are hooked up in...

On another topic, I am off-base that that beautiful still is not a CCVM design?

[Manc]

Yes It's a CM still. I run the water from a pump in a 220l barrel think I might need a second barrel it was ok in the winter but doesn't seem to cool fast enough now it's summer

The air gets stuck in the condenser it self now I look at the picture of how I use to run I think the water takes the path of least resistance which is from the the inlet at the top straight to the bottom and then starts rising after it covers the outlet pipe the air that is in the condenser has no where to go and that why it doesn't work

Lee

[Manc]

Sorry my mistake I didn't realize I was posting with the wrong still I have read this thread and it's a great read sorry for causing any confusion especially to you fafrd its no excuse but i started the weekend early with some booners all corn last night hope I've not mudded the waters look forward to hearing more from you

Regards

Lee

[tonofsteel]

Lee that is some nice looking bit of kit you got there.

If I've understood correctly, however, reflux stills in general allow a sharper less-smeared cut-off between first shots and heads as well as between heads and hearts. And the CCVM design allows a distillation run to be run in 'reflux mode' through those two phases and then run in close to pot-still mode through the hearts part of the run (by raising the condenser).

If this understanding is correct and a CCVM still allows most of the advantages of sharp cut-offs of a reflux still while preserving most of the flavoring benefits of a pot still, I'm likely to be 'upgrading' my modular potstill design to CCVM configuration sooner rather than later (and hence the importance of understanding what the practical difference between a 2" column and a 3" column would be before I begin the build).

Thought about this a bit more and it totally makes sense that as long as the reflux condensor is in there cooling it is going to have some reflux effect no matter how high it is (within reason). I have mostly put my effort to understanding either 0% pot or neutral reflux so the partial flavor thing is a new interesting angle (well, for me at least). If the reflux is at minimum 50% with the CCVM in reflux mode and it does not work for the flavor you are going after (strips too much flavor out) would you not be able to take the reflux coil out, cap it off and run in pot still mode.

Typically there is very low reflux in a pot head but if you have a tall enough column and add packing to it (with no reflux condensor) then there would be a certain amount of reflux going on?

So for 0-50% reflux use pot still mode with different column heights/packing
for 50-100% use CCVM mode with reflux condensor adjusting the height of it

With the calculators I have only found they ask for the reflux ratio but with a pot still you cannot set this by adjusting anything other than the heat perhaps (high heat would decrease the gradient in the column, low heat would allow more of a gradient to be established). So if this is true then technically you have control over the reflux ratio to some degree but still uncertain how to calculate it.

Didn't find anything yet to calculate what the reflux would be if you had a pot still with a 1.5m tall 2" column and 1m of packing with ambient cooling @ 800W for example. So maybe can't get to 50% reflux with a "modified pot head"

Found these two topics that to me suggest you can get over 1 plate with a pot still but not so clear as to how to calculate it out or figure out the actual reflux given a set of conditions:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=55385
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6308

The "reflux" setting in the pot calc, has a ZERO impact. All it does is slow down the takeoff. It makes an "assumption" that all reflux simply falls back into the boiler with NO revaporation.

Thus, THAT is why using the pot calc with any type of column will NOT model worth a crap. The column (unless you have "perfect" insulation), will always re-vaporize a considerable percentage of the material refluxing on the walls. Not enough to give you a "pure" product, but enough that the output will be significantly higher than the "1-plate" pot still.

I think the pot still calculator assumes 1 theoretical plate while in real life my still produces about 1.3 theoretical plates.

That is probably a very accurate statement. Yes, the pot calc DOES work with 1.0 theoretical plates. NOTE if you insulate your up column, I bet you will get very close results to the pot_calc applet.

H.

[fafrd]

Sorry my mistake I didn't realize I was posting with the wrong still I have read this thread and it's a great read sorry for causing any confusion especially to you fafrd its no excuse but i started the weekend early with some booners all corn last night hope I've not mudded the waters look forward to hearing more from you

Regards

Lee

Not at all, Lee - I'm just a tiny bit impressed with myself for having figured out that wasn't a CCVM all on my own - when I first started looking into this stuff a week ago, I didn't even understand the difference between a pot still and a reflux still .

My eyes still aren't bleeding enough and I know there's much more reading to do, but I suppose I making some headeay down the rabbit-hole (largely thanks to this fantastic site and the invaluable and generous contributions of experienced distillers such as yourself.

[Manc]

Thanks fafrd but I'm a noob like yourself been here 6 months but what a learning curve now do some all grains and usually have at least one wash to run at the weekend loving the ride

[fafrd]

Lee that is some nice looking bit of kit you got there.

If I've understood correctly, however, reflux stills in general allow a sharper less-smeared cut-off between first shots and heads as well as between heads and hearts. And the CCVM design allows a distillation run to be run in 'reflux mode' through those two phases and then run in close to pot-still mode through the hearts part of the run (by raising the condenser).

If this understanding is correct and a CCVM still allows most of the advantages of sharp cut-offs of a reflux still while preserving most of the flavoring benefits of a pot still, I'm likely to be 'upgrading' my modular potstill design to CCVM configuration sooner rather than later (and hence the importance of understanding what the practical difference between a 2" column and a 3" column would be before I begin the build).

Thought about this a bit more and it totally makes sense that as long as the reflux condensor is in there cooling it is going to have some reflux effect no matter how high it is (within reason). I have mostly put my effort to understanding either 0% pot or neutral reflux so the partial flavor thing is a new interesting angle (well, for me at least). If the reflux is at minimum 50% with the CCVM in reflux mode and it does not work for the flavor you are going after (strips too much flavor out) would you not be able to take the reflux coil out, cap it off and run in pot still mode.

Typically there is very low reflux in a pot head but if you have a tall enough column and add packing to it (with no reflux condensor) then there would be a certain amount of reflux going on?

So for 0-50% reflux use pot still mode with different column heights/packing
for 50-100% use CCVM mode with reflux condensor adjusting the height of it

With the calculators I have only found they ask for the reflux ratio but with a pot still you cannot set this by adjusting anything other than the heat perhaps (high heat would decrease the gradient in the column, low heat would allow more of a gradient to be established). So if this is true then technically you have control over the reflux ratio to some degree but still uncertain how to calculate it.

Didn't find anything yet to calculate what the reflux would be if you had a pot still with a 1.5m tall 2" column and 1m of packing with ambient cooling @ 800W for example. So maybe can't get to 50% reflux with a "modified pot head"

Found these two topics that to me suggest you can get over 1 plate with a pot still but not so clear as to how to calculate it out or figure out the actual reflux given a set of conditions:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=55385
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6308

The "reflux" setting in the pot calc, has a ZERO impact. All it does is slow down the takeoff. It makes an "assumption" that all reflux simply falls back into the boiler with NO revaporation.

Thus, THAT is why using the pot calc with any type of column will NOT model worth a crap. The column (unless you have "perfect" insulation), will always re-vaporize a considerable percentage of the material refluxing on the walls. Not enough to give you a "pure" product, but enough that the output will be significantly higher than the "1-plate" pot still.

I think the pot still calculator assumes 1 theoretical plate while in real life my still produces about 1.3 theoretical plates.

That is probably a very accurate statement. Yes, the pot calc DOES work with 1.0 theoretical plates. NOTE if you insulate your up column, I bet you will get very close results to the pot_calc applet.

H.

Appreciate the post. Obviously a lot more I need to digest (calculators and such). But I understand in general, even a straight-up pot still will have some reflux (unless the entire column is insulated and equalized above evaporation temps).

I'm mainly focused on the build I want to make and realize that I'm reaching the point that answering some questions will just require hands-on experience.

I like the simplicity and flexibilty of the CCVM design and am leaning towards building one of those but there are just 3 questions I am seeking answers to:

1/ In a 'pure' pot-still configuration (meaning a capped T where a true pot-still would have an elbow), is the small volume of trapped vapor above the output port anything to be concerned about or is it inconsequential? In a true pot-still all of the nastiest vapors will flow into the output condenser during foreshots where I'm concerned some of those nastiest vapors may get trapped in that deadspace where they coukd get sucked into later cuts including hearts. Is it worth thinking about using an elbow for pot-still configuration or is this a non-issue?

2/ Is ~50% reflux a good compromise to get close-to-pot-still levels of flavoring or is it going to result in noticably less flavoring than a true pot-still run?

3/ If there is any value to limiting minimum reflux levels to below 50% levels for flavor maximization when running in CCVM configuration, are there any known designs to achieve that?

The physical raising of the RC acts as a physical gate and a shunting pathway (through TC condensation) which greatly limits vapor flow into the product port. It occurs to me that some sort of simple baffle affixed to the bottom of the RC and activated through the open column (ie: by pulling on a eire / control rod) could be used to increase preferential vapor flow into the output port (to well higher than 50%). Intetested to know from dad300 or any of the other experienced CCVM designers / users whether this idea to further increase output preference into the output port is crazy, or will not work, or has already been explored and in't worth a d*mn, or could be worth trying...

[fafrd]

Thanks fafrd but I'm a noob like yourself been here 6 months but what a learning curve now do some all grains and usually have at least one wash to run at the weekend loving the ride

Hey, no worries Lee, you've got 6 months more experience than me and if I can have half as much experience in 6 months as you have now, I'll be a pretty happy camper.

Let's take it to PMs so we don't pollute the thread, but I'd be interested to understand the reasons you chose the CM design you made versus a CCVM build...

[Twisted Brick]

when I first started looking into this stuff a week ago, I didn't even understand the difference between a pot still and a reflux still .

My eyes still aren't bleeding enough and I know there's much more reading to do, but I suppose I making some headeay down the rabbit-hole (largely thanks to this fantastic site and the invaluable and generous contributions of experienced distillers such as yourself.

Keep at it, fafrd. It will eventually all fall into place. Tip: when you do get to the point where your eyes bleed, (and I've been there), I got one of my wife's panty liners, and cut it in half crosswise, then stuck each half to each cheek, just below my eyes. Works wonders!

[fafrd]

Yes It's a CM still. I run the water from a pump in a 220l barrel think I might need a second barrel it was ok in the winter but doesn't seem to cool fast enough now it's summer

The air gets stuck in the condenser it self now I look at the picture of how I use to run I think the water takes the path of least resistance which is from the the inlet at the top straight to the bottom and then starts rising after it covers the outlet pipe the air that is in the condenser has no where to go and that why it doesn't work

Lee

I'm going to assume you have a Liebig-style RC until you tell me that's another condenser type.

If you are getting trapped air in your RC when it is running top-to-bottom (which is how it should be run), it's because your pump doesn't generate sufficient pressure to drive out the air.

I think you need to flush all the air out of your condensers before starting the still and I can think of a couple ways to do that:

a/ use tap pressure to drive out the air before switching over to your pump (as I've already outlined).

b/ since it's the outer jacket of your Liebig-style-RC where the air is trapped, you can flush it before assembling the still. ---Assemble you RC
-flip it upside down (so coolant input is on the bottom)
-fill and flush with your pump as you are doing now
-close off coolant flow with a valve and shut off pump
-flip RC right-side up (coolant input on top) and assemble still
-startup pump and open valve and you have air/bubble-free coolant flow
-fire up your still and do your run as usual

You'll need to invest in a valve at the output end of the coolant plumbing, but this could even just be merely closing off the output end of the coolant return hose with your thumb when coolant starts squirting out (hose end held up high to be the highest point with no lical high-points on the way) and submerging the end of the coolant hose back into your coolant barrel before removing your thumb. You want to give all air/bubbles a continuously-increasing path to reach the end of the hose and once all of the air is out,you just want to have a closed loop so no air can get back in. And again, all of this can be done before[/b] still assembly.

I may be a noob when it comes to distilling, but I know a thing or two when it comes to properly flushing hoses of air .

[fafrd]

when I first started looking into this stuff a week ago, I didn't even understand the difference between a pot still and a reflux still .

My eyes still aren't bleeding enough and I know there's much more reading to do, but I suppose I making some headeay down the rabbit-hole (largely thanks to this fantastic site and the invaluable and generous contributions of experienced distillers such as yourself.

Keep at it, fafrd. It will eventually all fall into place. Tip: when you do get to the point where your eyes bleed, (and I've been there), I got one of my wife's panty liners, and cut it in half crosswise, then stuck each half to each cheek, just below my eyes. Works wonders!

Appreciate the encouragment but having trouble understanding the panty-liner trick. Perhaps you could post a pic (and suspect many of us would be interested ).

[fafrd]

Ah, well good point there! I thought you could get 0% raising up the reflux condenser but what you say sounds plausible for sure. I see now where you are getting 50% from and I was mistakenly assuming that raising it high enough was pot still mode, but it is not.

Since I just saw it again, I thought I would point it out.

If you look at the drawing in the lead post of this thread, you see that RC fully-raised is labeled '50/50 split'

[tonofsteel]

Ah blind I must be. Looking again at it carefully I see whats going on there and I think conceptually it makes more sense to me now in addition to your original question and discussion, thanks!

I am now interested in trying a wash through a pot and through the reflux at 50/50 to see for myself what the difference is and how the flavor is affected/compressed/altered and by how much.

The baffle idea sounds interesting and I am interested in hearing what the experts have to say about the potential of it. Just to me it seems like if a baffle or other mechanism is introduced to increase product takeoff and the reflux drops off enough because of it then you could do the same with a pot still with some reflux like a tall column with packing and no reflux condenser. Or have a capped top and use a dephlegmator or torpedo with/without packing to vary the reflux ratio to the % that suits you.

Adding a thumper to the pot still setup could also help get you what you are looking for as well if you want flavor to carry through.

In any case it is good to experiment so a good question and maybe there is something else that adding a baffle will do that can't be replicated with any other type of setup.

[Twisted Brick]

Appreciate the encouragement but having trouble understanding the panty-liner trick. Perhaps you could post a pic (and suspect many of us would be interested ).

Once I got hooked on this hobby I would stay up late staring at the screen to learn. Things like correlating distillate ABV to column temp or why pH changes during a mash session. Many nights my eyes would tear up and dribble down my cheeks. This is one of the reasons for the term read until your eyes bleed. One time my wife came downstairs and asked why I was crying. So to manage the tears and still be able to work the keyboard, I came up with the panty-liner trick. Said panty liner comes with an adhesive backing and once I cut it in half, simply stuck one on each cheek (viola!) and kept on reading.

*The acts described above are purely fictional and are not based on actual persons or events

[fafrd]

Ah blind I must be. Looking again at it carefully I see whats going on there and I think conceptually it makes more sense to me now in addition to your original question and discussion, thanks!

I am now interested in trying a wash through a pot and through the reflux at 50/50 to see for myself what the difference is and how the flavor is affected/compressed/altered and by how much.

The baffle idea sounds interesting and I am interested in hearing what the experts have to say about the potential of it. Just to me it seems like if a baffle or other mechanism is introduced to increase product takeoff and the reflux drops off enough because of it then you could do the same with a pot still with some reflux like a tall column with packing and no reflux condenser. Or have a capped top and use a dephlegmator or torpedo with/without packing to vary the reflux ratio to the % that suits you.

Adding a thumper to the pot still setup could also help get you what you are looking for as well if you want flavor to carry through.

In any case it is good to experiment so a good question and maybe there is something else that adding a baffle will do that can't be replicated with any other type of setup.

Interested in the results of your experiment.

In the meantime, my local salvage yard had some 4' of ~5/8" CSST tubing for $3, so I jumped on it. I'd like to use CSST for both Reflux and Product condensers (Dimroth) and started a new thread here: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=71139 to get advice on how best to use CSST to design RC and PC condensers for a 2" CCVM design...

[fafrd]

Maritimer...if you monitor the temp of the outflow coolant temp., and keep it below 140ish, you should be condensing 100% of the vapor, in the column and in the product condenser. With my setup, if I keep it below 130 Deg F, I know I'm o.k. I worked in photo labs for years and I know MY HANDS can take about 140 deg F...so, I control the water volume to keep the coolant outflow temp around 120-130ish. Hope that makes sense!

My product comes out about 80deg F.

FS...

Reflux coil r.jpg

Scrubbie on top is last resort and stops wind from whistling in.

Reflux Assm r.jpg

I just switched to a reducer on top, instead of a short straight pipe...purely aesthetics...vanity.

On Top r.jpg

Apologies for reposting the pics, but this post is from so far back in the thread that I thought it woukd prove useful.

[EDIT: Pics did not come through, so here is the link to the earlier post in case anyone needs reminding: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41579&start=30#p7105584]

This design is very clear and I would like to copy it, but for a 2" column rather than 3".

I assume that this design is 5/8" OD (1/2" ID) CSST within a 3" tube, correct?

So the 'tight-coil / coldfinger-like' design takes up 3x5/8" = 15/8" or 62.5% of the 3" crosssection (plenty of 'room' foar gas to pass through the coil).

For a 2" column, 5/8" OD is too wide to use this design.

With 1/2" OD CSST (3/8" ID), a tigt-coil design will consume 75% of the 2" cross-section. Less 'room' that the 5/8"-in-3" coil, but still allowing ~25% space for vapor flow through-around the coil.

Using 3/8" OD CSST (1/4" ID) would consume 56% of the 2" cross-section, so even more 'room' than the 5/8"-in-3" design (though at the cost of flow-rate that is only 25% for equal pressure).

I'd appreciate inputs from anyone who has build 2" CSST-Dimroth CCVM RCs (or who understands all of these details well-enough to contribute) to know which size CSST would be best to use for an RC for a 2" CCVM...

p.s. The other option is to use 5/8" CSST in a 'twisted' U configuration or to use 5/8" CSST in a single 'simple U' configuration (both of which only fill ~20% of cross-section) or alternatively 2 pieces of 5/8" CSST in a 'dual-simple-U' configuration which fills 39% of of cross-section).

[casper the Irish]

Dad has kindly reposted his earlier post for you. The relative sizes are not so important, its just a matter of getting the csst to twist and fit inside the tubes.
Why are you resizing to 2"?

Dad advised me to go with 3" if possible. My keg has a 2" neck, so I used 2"copper male to 3" female reducer. 3" SS column slips in just fine. On top is a 3"x3" x3" Tee.

I am really glad I took Dads advice. Using the same time and fuel (propane is costly) I get more than twice as much spirit coming over as I did on my previous 2" column

[fafrd]

Dad has kindly reposted his earlier post for you.

I'm not sure I understand what this means. Since his post of June 9 (which predates my first post on this thread), I've not seen any posts here from Dad300. I'm certainly eager to read anything he has to say on the subject, so a pointer would be appreciated in case I missed something from him...

The relative sizes are not so important, its just a matter of getting the csst to twist and fit inside the tubes.

I can easily get 5/8" OD CSST to 'fit' within 2" tube (simple twisted U) but that's going to mean more freespace around the CSST for vapor to flow than Dad300's tightly-coied coldfinger-like design. I'm worried that may mean vapors making it farther up the column and potentially out the top. Not the end of the world since I can probably slow things down if that happens and eventually replace with smaller-OD CSST that can be wound into a tighter coil and still fit into 2" tube, but I figured I'd ask in case anyone already knows the answer.

Why are you resizing to 2"?

Dad advised me to go with 3" if possible. My keg has a 2" neck, so I used 2"copper male to 3" female reducer. 3" SS column slips in just fine. On top is a 3"x3" x3" Tee.

I am really glad I took Dads advice. Using the same time and fuel (propane is costly) I get more than twice as much spirit coming over as I did on my previous 2" column

At this point, the only parts I've bought for my build are 10' of 2" copper, and several 2" TC clamps with ferrules. I'm just starting out and will begin with a 2" pot-still before moving on to CCVM.

Perhaps by then I'll decide to follow your path and go 3", but it's likely I'll want to first try a 2" CCVM configuration (very low barrier-to-entry for me). I will remember your experience of twice the fuel efficincy you got moving from 2" to 3". Was that 2" column also CCVM?

If 2" CCVM is fringe, I guess I'll need to be one of the pioneers. 5/8" OD CSST in 3" column seems tried and true (as you've confirmed) so I may just need to experiment which diameter CSST comes the closest to delivering equivalent performance in a 2" column.

Kimbodious is successfully using 5/8" CSST in a 2" column (twisted U), but he has a 7' length compated to my 4' length. Before blindly following his lead and buying a new 7' piece of 5/8" OD CSST, I thought I'd ask whether using 1/2" OD or even 3/8" OD CSST, which would allow a Dad300-like tightly-wound coldfinger-like design might be preferable to a longer twisted U made from 5/8" OD CSST (better mechanical blocking of the product port).

[kimbodious]

fafrd, if you want to have a coiled RC go for the smallest size CSST, otherwise your RC will be the twisted version. The twisted version works fine for me. The important thing is that you can move the RC easily and that it stays in the position you wanted it.

If the CSST is fitted with compression fittings it is a simple matter to connect to the braided flexible SS plumbing hookup hoses. If you use the braided hookup hoses your CSST does not have to extend out the column.

The RC in a CCVM is not so much a valve or gate as much as it is a moveable zone of coldness/ place of condensation.

[fafrd]

fafrd, if you want to have a coiled RC go for the smallest size CSST, otherwise your RC will be the twisted version. The twisted version works fine for me. The important thing is that you can move the RC easily and that it stays in the position you wanted it.

If the CSST is fitted with compression fittings it is a simple matter to connect to the braided flexible SS plumbing hookup hoses.

Meaning I don't need to be worried about having a gasket within the fittibg (likeva garden-hose fitting)? I see that the CSST with compression fittings usually has a silicon washer within the fitting. I know silicon is a no-no but perhaps not if it is for coolant and not product? My CSST came without and washer / gasket so I can either not use one at all, find a silicon washer, or try to fibd a PTFE washer (if they exist).

If you use the braided hookup hoses your CSST does not have to extend out the column.

The 3/4" NPT-comression adapters currently connected to the compression fittings on the 5/8" CSST are too big to fit into a 2" pipe, vut you've raised an interesting possibility:

if I replace the compression/NPT adapters with braided hookup hoses, 2 of those will easily fit into a 2" pipe and I can effectively extend the length of my CSST-Dimroth coil. In general, I'd be worried about the materials used with a braided hookup hose (plastic?) within the column, but perhaps because they are above the coil so all condensation should be complete and there is only air in that area it is OK?

The other thing you've helped me to realize is that I can connect a second 4' piece of CSST to this first to effectivey make as long of an extension as I need...
The RC in a CCVM is not so much a valve or gate as much as it is a moveable zone of coldness/ place of condensation.

Would greatly appreciate to understand from the experienced powers-that-be whether the usual rules about silicon and plastic-like materials such as those used within braided hookups are something to be concerned about within a CCVM column on top of the RC or better to avoid the use of such materials at all costs...

[casper the Irish]

Since his post of June 9 (which predates my first post on this thread), I've not seen any posts here from Dad300. I'm certainly eager to read anything he has to say on the subject

I can easily get 5/8" OD CSST to 'fit' within 2" tube ...I'm worried that may mean vapors making it out the top.I'm just starting out and will begin with a 2" pot-still before moving on to CCVM.

I mean that Dad the OP invented this CCVM by adapting from the moving coil idea by Manu De Hanoi, thee are plenty of his contributions on other threads as well.


I have a stove top pot, biggest I could find, 35l with a lid. Fixed on a half dozen clasps, cut a 3" hole in the lid and attached a foot of 3" ss pipe and 90ºbend. There are push-on M/F threaded connectors available, so I can screw on my condenser (16mm csst inside 35mm pipe, a 3" reducer cone at one end). I use this same condenser on my reflux column.

Connecting the csst to water flow can be done with any kind of suitable glue, there is no contact with product. I cut a slot at the end of the condenser tube so the flexi is bent up out of the way, While you may use proprietary connectors, they are very expensive and not necessary. You could try soldering on a tail of copper. I use threaded connectors for nylon tubing, they kinda jam /screw on to the csst with a bit of gorilla glue. Cost a few dollars.
I use nylon 10mm tube to feed both condensers (RC and PC). as I said, its the PC that also fits on the stove top. Nylon is flexible and uses push-fit connections which are easily removed. This is the sort of thing used by soda vending or air compressor suppliers. The push-fit for me is essential to easy assemble and take apart the whole caboodle. It also enables me to use the same dimroth on both rigs, the pot and the reflux. The pot is on the kitchen stove, so its a fly by night operation. A wee needle valve is essential to control the flow, and cost only a few pound.

Why are you resizing to 2"? You will collect less than a quart per hour, Wait till you see azeotrope from a 3" x 30" at a quart every 15 minutes from this still, from the same fuel burn...the threads are on here if you look...

I can see very little advantage in working with 2" since all the copper I use comes from a scrap metal merchant. He is as likely to get 3" as 1", the joins are few on this CCVM construction. Yes its easy to solder copper and difficult for the average bear to solder SS but it can be done. Or pay a few $ per weld to have it welded for you. I ave worked my way through at least 4 designs from this site before finally arriving at Dad's design. This really is the best, so well done you Fafrd for having discovered this from the start. It is also the easiest and cheapest to build.

This way, I have a big pot with a 3" lyne arm on the removeable lid, screw on condenser, it all comes apart and fits on a shelf.
I have stuffed a few tight rolls of copper mesh inside the lyne arm. I added a refinement, a Y with a screw cap on one arm to add herb baskets etc (condenser on the other).
Either way, as Dad demonstrates as long as you use and equalT you will get a max 50% TO

As for the reflux still, I agree with you, the pot-still gets far more use, it is essential... for stripping, low wines, high wines, spirit runs. Any mash made with (in my case hot rolled flaked) barley, wheat, or maize is pot stilled. And of course, Gin. A good pot still is used for every mash. The reflux is better for rum or vodka. The reflux for me is more of a backup when things go wrong and I need a clean neutral. It does to be fair give superior yield (up to 30% more hearts) great rum, clean vodka, subtle whiskey
The RC is the same half inch csst as in the PC dimroth condenser: all you have to do is scrunch it tighter or loosen it out until the coil can enter the top, not too loose, not too tight. Enough to catch and slide up or down, stay put.

[fafrd]

Since his post of June 9 (which predates my first post on this thread), I've not seen any posts here from Dad300. I'm certainly eager to read anything he has to say on the subject.

I mean that Dad has repeated things here on this thread that he had posted elsewhere.

Oh, OK. Got it.

Why are you resizing to 2"? Wait till you see azeotrope from a 3" x 30" at a quart every 15 minutes from this still...the threads are on here if you look...

I'm just starting out and will begin with a 2" pot-still before moving on to CCVM.

I have a stove top pot, biggest I could find, 35l with a lid. Fixed on a half dozen clasps, cut a 3" hole in the lid and attached a foot of 3" ss pipe and 90ºbend. There are push-on M/F threaded connectors available, so I can screw on my condenser (16mm csst inside 35mm pipe, a 3" reducer cone at one end). I use this same condenser on my reflux column.

I assume that's 16mm OD CSST, right? So simple 'folded-U' design within your 35mm pipe, right? How long is it (CSST and 35mm pipe)?

Connecting the csst to water flow can be done with any kind of suitable glue, there is no contact with product. I cut a slot at the end of the condenser tube so the flexi is bent up out of the way, While you may use proprietary connectors, they are very expensive and not necessary. You could try soldering on a tail of copper.

I've got my CSST bent to the left and the right, so I can connect out of the flow (without having to cut a slot). My CSST was for gas-range hook-up, so it already has gas compression fittings and a compression-to-NPT adapter on either end. I have low-cost nylon NPT-HoseBarb adapters so I can connect up my hoses pretty easily (for PC, will probably be purchasing a longer piece of 1/2" OD CSST for an eventual reflux condenser).

[quote='casper the Irish"]
I use nylon 10mm tube, with a push-fit valve. This is the sort of thing used by soda vending or air compressor suppliers. The push-fit for me is essential to easy assemble and take apart the whole caboodle. It also enables me to use the same dimroth on both rigs, the pot and the reflux. The pot is on the kitchen stove, so its a fly by night operation. This wee needle valve is essential, and cost only a few pound.
[/quote]
Quick-disconnects are great. I may also use them for my coolant hose connects (NPT-QD adapter).

In pot-still mode, you need the needle-valve because you are using tap water and don't want to needlessly waste water, right? (meaning there is no specific advantage to PC cooling as slowly as possible other than water-conservation, right?).

I'm planning to have a resevoir with 10-15 gallons of coolant (water) and a recirculation pump, so for PC, I'm hoping to recirculate as fast as possible (though I can throttle-back if there is any reason to do so).

I can see very little advantage in working with 2" since [/b]all the copper I use comes from a scrap metal merchant. He is as likely to get 3" as 1"[/b], the joins are few on this CCVM construction. Yes its easy to solder copper and difficult for the average bear to solder SS but it can be done. Or pay a few $ per weld to have it welded for you. I ave worked my way through at least 4 designs from this site before finally arriving at Dad's design. This really is the best, so well done you Fafrd for having discovered this from the start. It is also the easiest and cheapest to build.

If I could get 3" as easily/inexpensively as 2", I would probably have done the same as you. The only 'advantage' of 2" over 3" is cost. My scrapyard had no 3" copper pipe and a 40"-long 3" column would have cost me $112, well over twice what 2" would have cost. Plus then there is the added cost of 3" Sanitary fittings versus 2".

An all-2" design may not have the performance of the 3" design you have, but it is an unbelievably simple and inexpensive build:

-keg (at whatever cost that will run you)
-2" copper pipe (I got 10' for $80, so 20-30% more than I need)
-2" sanitary T (same cost as a copper T in my case, more flexible and less soldering)
-2" sanitary elbow (copper was a bit cheaper, but TC is more flexible and easier)
-48" of 5/8" OD CSST for product condenser (I got mine new from the scrapyard for $3 )
-Another piece of CSST for reflux condenser (6' of 1/2" OD CSST will run me $14)
-5 2" TC clamps ($5 each or I can get clamp, 2 ferrules and gasket for $8 per set)
-varios bits and pieces for hooking up hoses and such...

The total 'core plumbing cost' for my all-2" keg-based pot-or-CSST still will be a bit over $150 plus the effort of soldering 5 2" SS ferrules to 2" copper pipe (not yet done).

This is less than I was about to spend on a prefab pot-still head before learning from this site what a bad idea that would be, but it is so simple and easy I keep feeling like 'pinch me, I must be missing something...'

This way, I have a big pot with a 3" lyne arm on the removeable lid, screw on condenser, it all comes apart and fits on a shelf.
I have stuffed a few tight rolls of copper mesh inside the lyne arm. I added a refinement, a Y with a screw cap on one arm to add herb baskets etc (condenser on the other).

Yeah, it's very appealing how easily this design breaks down for being tucked away when mot in use...

I'm going to start off learning about pot-still distilling without any packing. Do you use the copper mesh in pot-still mode and if so, what difference do you feel it made?

As for the reflux still, I agree with you, the pot-still gets far more use, it is essential... for stripping, low wines, high wines, spirit runs. Any mash made with (in my case hot rolled flaked) barley, wheat, or maize is pot stilled. And of course, Gin

Yes, my primary goal is brandy and eventually port (fortified wine), so I'll be mastering the use of my pot-still before getting into reflux/CCVM.

I have to admit that of the higher ABV products, gin may be the one that intrigues me the most, so I will eventually want to understand the process of making gin and which still-type / still-enhancements are best for making gin...

The reflux is better for rum or vodka. The RC is the same half inch csst as in the PC dimroth condenser: all you have to do is scrunch it tighter or loosen it out until the coil can enter the top, not too loose, not too tight. Enough to catch and slide up or down, stay put.

Yeah, I think I've understood that. The difference is when you coil your 'half-inch' 1/2" ID; 5/8" OD CSST, it easily coils tightly to a small-enough diameter that you can easily fit into your 3" column with plenty of room for the passage of vapors (20% - 56% 'free' / open area through / around coil).

Fitting into a 2" column, one is forced to make a simple U or a twisted U (like you are doing for your PC). So while I believe I can get a 5/8" OD CSST-Dimroth twisted-U coil to provide the same 'interference fit' you are describing, I'm a bit worried about the increased 'free area' for the flow of vapor and the possible need for a longer RC to compensate (similar in length to your PC, longer than 12" or 14").

A 5/8" CSST U design in a 2" pipe will leave over 80% of column cross-section 'free' / open for vapor flow. This is more than you'd have if you coiled your 5/8" ID CSST into the tightest coil possible (15/16" diameter 'solid cross-section' coil).

That's why I'm figuring I might be better off getting a piece of 1/2" OD (3/8" ID) CSST for my eventual reflux condenser. 1/2" OD would allow me to make the same kind of 'tight coil' condenser design that Dad300s pictures show while leaving only 10% - 44% 'free' open area through / around the coil for vapor flow.

Perhaps it all make no difference as some are saying, but I know just enough about the difference between laminar flow and turbulent flow to want to match the crux of Dad300s tightly-coiled RC design as closely as possible...

[DAD300]

In the reflux condenser, filling as much if the tube with CSST coil is important. It blocks more vapor and provides a tight fit for holding the coil in place.

For the dimroth style product condenser it is not as important. SS Scrubbie can be packed around a loose fitting twisted loop and the end can be secured in a lot of ways to prevent it slipping out.

I tend to tout the 3" over a 2" because the cost of the spools is minimal for the increased output of the 3". But there is certainly nothing wrong with the 2".

[fafrd]

In the reflux condenser, filling as much if the tube with CSST coil is important. It blocks more vapor and provides a tight fit for holding the coil in place.

For the dimroth style product condenser it is not as important. SS Scrubbie can be packed around a loose fitting twisted loop and the end can be secured in a lot of ways to prevent it slipping out.

I tend to tout the 3" over a 2" because the cost of the spools is minimal for the increased output of the 3". But there is certainly nothing wrong with the 2".

Thanks Dad300, that's what I thought.

For a 2" column, 5/8" OD CSST for the RC is very tight - the tightest coil possible has a a 15/8" diameter which basically plugs the column, while with the twisted U configuration, a 2" column is far less 'filled' by the CSST than a 3" column with tight coil as in your pics.

So for a 2" column, would you agree that a tighter coil wound out of 1/2" OD (3/8" ID) CSST is likely to work better asan RC than trying to use 5/8" OD CSST?

[rockystill]

Wow! I'm building a CCVM still now (50l keg and 2" column), and this is BY FAR the easiest, coolest thing I've built so far. Took about two minutes! Fits nice and snug in a 2" pipe, but I'll add some copper scrubbies as well.
My coil from tip to top coil is about 11".

I got my CSST here - https://www.plumbingsupply.com/gasconnectors.html - and I'm using this version:
Stainless Steel Gasflex - 3/8"od x 72" - with adapter to 1/2"fips x 1/2"fips