Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Jimbo » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:49 am

FullySilenced wrote:I wouldn't call em fakers.... more like innovators who found a market and filled a niche...

Keep Making it.. fhhnt1

happy distilling,

FS
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Dont get me wrong, I have nothing at all against fishnet, I think its great he's here and can share his knowledge. Its just a touchy subject, using GNS to make 'whiskey' Id rather see it used to make vodka, gin and infusions. But thats just me.
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by fshhnt1 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:09 am

jimbo that's exactly why im here....I want to learn how they did it years ago with out all the automatic controllers,spread sheets, gc machines, inline proofers, computers ect...I must say im a long way from being a master of the craft at home. I've learned a lot from this forum and for that I thank everyone...But for the sake of argument and why I chimed in on this subject was because of the exact subject line. "Stop cutting heads while distilling" I'm really not into drinking methanol. And yes for home crafting a beverage, pay close attention to your fermenter. stay away from turbos, and your distilling will be that much better....end product will be easier to achieve...

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Jimbo » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:22 am

fshhnt1, with your knowledge of the high tech side, combined with a passion for learning the artisan, small batch side, youll be a force to be reckoned with.

Here's a good article about the 'small guy', the tens of thousands of gallons per 'year' guy, not per day guy. Chip Tate at Balcones makes unique whiskeys, his signature drop a Hopi Blue corn whiskey, distilled in small copper stills and aged in 5 gallon barrels. He's one of many 'artisans' that get upset when his $45 bottle, that cost him most of that $45, sits on the shelf sits next to one who bought barrels of GNS, aged it, put a fancy label on it and sells it for $45. http://www.dallasobserver.com/2013-11-2 ... nd-fakers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Odin » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:52 am

And ... them fakers don't cut for heads for sure!

;)

Back on topic guys!

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by fshhnt1 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:03 am

bull sh*t..........heads, esters,fusel oil ect......

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Odin » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:06 am

Sorry? Not sure I understand what you are trying to say here.

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by fshhnt1 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:15 am

im saying I belong to the world wide corporation of fake whiskey makers....our standards are way above any true whiskey maker a.k.a. jd, evan, and so on, I make 90% of everything on the shelf...my standards are closely monitored by the man on a daily basis due to the volume we put out..When I make 200 neutral, its 120ppm water, with 0 gc across the board....So when u say I don't cut heads you are so sadly mistaken.......the stuff I throw away...is still better than anyone here could make at home...(sorry guys but its the truth)..we just don't have the technology at home...

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Odin » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:17 am

You been drinking?

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by fshhnt1 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:19 am

I state facts and can back up with signed gov.. seal can you?

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Prairiepiss » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:21 am

I think you struck a nerve Odin.

And I think he said you don't have the technology at home Odin. :lol:
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by fshhnt1 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:22 am

sorry guys didn't mean to get off topic....

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by RandyMarshCT » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:22 am

I think he (Odin) was referring to people who buy neutral and blend (only). Obviously you make cuts if you are operating a still... people who "make" whiskey without operating a still don't make any cuts.

Don't come into a thread started by someone else, whose purpose was to try and encourage people to pay a little more attention to their ferments, and shit all over it and act like your high and mighty neutral flavoring destroys everyone's craft made spirits. Go brag to the other big guys about how great your neutral is. We're trying to encourage home distillers to make the best spirits they can. Also, we're trying to learn what we can here.


Start a thread about how great your product is... if you're interested in home distilling at all. If you're just here to brag and argue, go elsewhere.
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Odin » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:23 am

Sorry, you seem to speak a very different kind of English than I am used to. This can easily be my bad.

But I am known to state facts, most of the time. About "gov... seal" dunno what you mean there. Heared about navy seals. They are good swimmers, I reckon.

Posting when Mr. P posted, sorry for that.

Smells like troll here!

And then Randy posted as well.

Again: let's get this topic back on track.

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by RandyMarshCT » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:24 am

Prairiepiss wrote:
And I think he said you don't have the technology at home Odin. :lol:

:clap:
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Jimbo » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:27 am

Odin wrote:And ... them fakers don't cut for heads for sure!

;)

Back on topic guys!

Odin.
LOL, I told ya this was a touchy subject.

Anyway, Odin, nope, they dont even know what heads are (the guys who buy fshnnts GNS, not fshhnnt himself who is supremely aware of heads Im sure).

This is the topic isint it?? Heads, where to cut, how to cut and what constitutes 'whiskey''?

fshhnt, sounds like you make the absolute best and purest GNS possible. Thats excellent, incredible even. And yes, Im certain better than any neutral that can be made at home without the technology. But in a discussion on whiskey.... ??? A tasty whiskey has congeners, by definition. This is why regulations for 'straight' whiskey were made, that says you cant distill it higher than 80%. The whole point is to keep the flavor congeners in.
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Odin » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:38 am

Oops! That's almost to0 funny to be rude, Mr. P!

The FACTS I could throw out would be:

"The technology that backs up my distilling is the rig that shattered the unofficial world record on production with a 2 inch diameter rig at azeotropic levels, and brought it from 2.7 to 3.5 liters per hour (and if I tweak the power, I can get it to 4.5 liters actually)."

Or I could state: "the only fully automated rig this side of 1 milion bucks!"

And many other things.

But what I want to say, even bringing all that armement into my distillation equasion, is ... look at your fermentation if you want to make better cuts.

F, please join that discussion in an orderly fashion. Or maybe start a topic of your own about blending neutrals into whiskey.

Regards, Odin.

Posting when Jimbo was
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Prairiepiss » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:41 am

I don't know that I would say this thread is about whiskey alone. Because it can relate to any spirits we make. Rum brandy whiskey even vodka and neutral.

Fermenting practices to lessen fores heads and or tails. And increasing the usable amount of hearts. Will benefit all.

Even someone who thinks they make the best product in the world. Can benefit from it. There is always room for improvement on anything.
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Odin » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:43 am

+1Mr. P! Very well put. And very much to the point. And yes, there is always room for improvement, as long as we keep an open mind.

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Bushman » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:08 pm

fshhnt1 wrote:im saying I belong to the world wide corporation of fake whiskey makers....our standards are way above any true whiskey maker a.k.a. jd, evan, and so on, I make 90% of everything on the shelf...my standards are closely monitored by the man on a daily basis due to the volume we put out..When I make 200 neutral, its 120ppm water, with 0 gc across the board....So when u say I don't cut heads you are so sadly mistaken.......the stuff I throw away...is still better than anyone here could make at home...(sorry guys but its the truth)..we just don't have the technology at home...
I wish I could sample our members drinks so I can make such a bold statement. Members here only have what they purchase off a shelf to compare theirs with. When I go fishing my fish that I catch always tastes better than that I can purchase, why probably because I caught it, cleaned it, and cooked it. I am not here to judge or say your product is any better or worse than mine just as I cannot make that claim about any other members. However Odin sent me a bottle of his Jenever/Gin mix and as gin goes it is better than what I have made this I can say as I have tasted both.

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by fshhnt1 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:37 pm

Bushman........may I have your address? I have no problem sending you a sample...and for everyone here I apologize.....Im here too learn about the home craft of whiskey making...the way it was done many years ago....I didn't mean too brag or to talk down to anyone...I'm sorry to those I offended....trust me when I say " it wont happen again"...im here to learn period....

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Danespirit » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:18 am

Odin wrote:
The FACTS I could throw out would be:

"The technology that backs up my distilling is the rig that shattered the unofficial world record on production with a 2 inch diameter rig at azeotropic levels, and brought it from 2.7 to 3.5 liters per hour (and if I tweak the power, i can get it to 4.5 liters actually)
:esurprised: Wow! Makes my humble output looking tiny..
Thanks for this interessting thread Odin.
It brings up a overseen fact that fermenting is the biggest part of getting a good product. (taking for granted that one has a decent still).

I will lean back,follow this thread and learn from the input given by all constructive contributions in it. (please keep on topic guys :silent: )

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by nabtastic » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:09 pm

Prairiepiss wrote:It's all in how you run it. Even a gas burner can scorch solids. The only fool proof safe method of heat. Would be steam. When talking scorching.

Truthfully I have never scorched a run. That I can tell. No evidence on the elements or in the boiler. Knock on wood. But I have gotten off flavors by heating to fast. What causes it? Couldn't tell you exactly. My guess would be the destruction of the yeast? But like I said I don't know for sure. It just the only thing left if its not being scorched? Unless there is some chemical reaction to the speed of which it is heated? Your guess is as good as mine.

I will always suggest going electric. I'm a big big fan of electric. The control you have over your still. And the money savings over the long run. (for most people) And the safety aspects. Just make it a great choice. To me anyway. Your mileage may vary.
I've gotta ask, how do you feel about forced air? Not sure thats the proper term, but it's basically a dry heat as opposed to steam. It's a much lower start-up cost for the units, and a lot easier to retro-fit/manufacture for since it isn't pressure sensative.
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Prairiepiss » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:18 pm

Forced air? Never heard of a still boiler being heated in this way? And if I'm not mistaken? Air doesn't transport heat as efficiently as steam? How would the heat be transferred to the boiler charge?
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Odin » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:20 pm

I have been thinking about it, but I feel there is a problem with that.

First, just imagine hot steam. When it enters the wash, it will collaps into liquid (water), give off its energy, make the wash boil.

Now, let's take an air burner. The hot air enters the wash ... does not collaps into anything, gives off its energy ... and create over pressure in the liquid this "over pressure" means a lot of air will blow out of the wash, into the column. Not just the gasses boiling off, but the air you put in as well. Thus very much reducing the abv of the gasses ...

Or so I see it. No expert. But I tried to wrap my head around it, designing a fast pro stripper and felt it wouldn't work.

Anybody out there who can correct me, please do.

Sorry for going off topic.

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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by nabtastic » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:28 pm

what? sorry, i had meant to send that as a PM to avoid getting off topic..

anyway, the heat circulates around the still, mash tuns, whatever, and is exhausted out. These forced air like this guy [http://www.glaciertanks.com/Jet_Burners ... 00BTU.html]
force air into a chamber that surrounds the unit in a similar manner to a double jacket. You basically set the burner a few feet from item being heated and connect the hose. one of the local breweries use it for mashing to avoid boiler inspections and the capital of buying a boiler and all it's accessories.
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Prairiepiss » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:33 pm

I was thinking the same thing Odin. And the air used may contain all kinds of stuff. That may it may not change the flavors and or smells of the distillate. So some extra equipment would be needed to clean the air before its use.

And the air could be high enough temp. It could scorch anything.

I use to work with some very hot air. Bleed air from a turboprop engine. It would come out around 900 deg f. You could heat up some stuff with that. LOL.

Was posting at the same time.

That what I was thinking you ment. But we get back to. It's basically the same as a gas burner. You are heating it from the outside. With something that can get very hot. So it could still scorch.

I would still say steam is the only fool proof heat source. As far as scorching.
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Jimbo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:35 pm

i considered it for a short spell, using something like this with a fan blowing air into a chamber around the boiler, like nab says. But also requires an exhaust to the outside, unless you like working in a 140 degree room. Probably has its merits if done right. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heater-for-2798 ... 565ed79772" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

At the end of the day, made more sense to put the wattage right into the mash with an element.
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Prairiepiss » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:45 pm

At the end of the day, made more sense to put the wattage right into the mash with an element
By far the most efficient way. As far as I'm concerned. And another reason I will suggest it over anything else any day.

But its not for everybody or every situation. The others have their merits also.
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by nabtastic » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:52 pm

Trying to get back on topic. can we get a quick recap here... a summary of the topic so far, if you will.

-proper handling of yeast prior to, and during, fermentation (temp, nutrients, hydration practices if needed, anything else?) will severely reduce the amount of heads we chop off.
-I did not see if we came to a conclusion on still management; construction materials (SS v Copper), pot v column, heat source, or on-grain v off-grain.
-There's been talk of cleaning up "heads" through various techniques (US, MW) but not much here about added flavor in an aged product.

I suppose I've got a question to add to that, are heads necessarily bad? Short-run, (un aged) sure, especially when they aren't naturally present. Is there any benefit in the long term? Do we know if they oxidize a specific way, react with wood in a positive way, turn into fairy dust perhaps?

I may be asking silly questions, but some of you are smart enough to know the answer..
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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Post by Jimbo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:08 pm

ya missed a couple important ones on fermentation. ABV - Gotta keep that wash ABV low, 8% max for AG's, maybe 10-12 on Sugarheads. Drunk yeast puke in your drink. And proper yeast for the wash at hand. Wine yeast for fruit (fructose, glucose), beer yeasts or distillers yeasts for AG's (maltose), Bakers for rum (glucose, sucrose)

When ya start talking about flavor congeners, esters (good vs bad) the discussion of heads and cuts gets 100x more complicated. Fruit esters (and fruity yeast esters) come over early, grain character comes over late. The core of what we do here is the art form of either gettin em out if ya makin neutral or vodka, or keeping just the right amount in if ya makin brandy or whiskey. Read all ya can, but it takes a snifter glass and your nose and tastebuds to learn this one. One small change in cuts and your drinkin likker will take on a whole different character one run to the next. Its part of what makes all this so damn fascinating.
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