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Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:47 am
by OtisT
I’ll just reply to your post, not the whole thread, that you should consider making head cuts by taste, not smell. Just my personal opinion that I find this more definitive/repeatable than cuts by smell.

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:55 pm
by Rrmuf
Thanks!!!! I will.

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:46 pm
by Saltbush Bill
Different strokes for different folk......my nose works fine.....I'll trust my nose for cutting heads over taste any day. Think it depends on the person.....is there a right or wrong way?

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:05 am
by NZChris
I cut by smell making neutrals. Flavored products I cut by tasting prospective blends.

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:37 pm
by LWTCS
I've definitely noticed an in between jar that tasted much better than it smelled. But that's coming from a place where the dead center cut was the standard.
My standard has definitely evolved.
I reckon everybody's does.....

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:50 pm
by OtisT
Ya, different strokes.... and please consider my advice in the context of the question asked. The poster In the previous message I replied to said he could not tell a heads cut point by smell and asked for advice, so I gently recommended he consider trying by taste. I smattered my response with “just my opinion” and such language so as not to envoke the wrath of others more experienced than me. I use my nose too at times and wasn’t trying to imply there was a right way. Otis

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:25 pm
by shadylane
All Ya got to do is fill a jar up partway and do it again. :lol:
The fun part is what you blend together.
I kinda like to keep all the cuts separate of a while.
Just to see what I have, before permanently putting it all together

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:48 pm
by nerdybrewer
90% plus of what I've ever made is rum.

Thought I had to get that out of the way.

With rum I plan to put it all in a once used Bourbon barrel and leave it there as long as I can stand it.

I do a stripping run to get all my low wines collected.
Then I add some wash left over from my ferment to my boiler with my low wines and do my "1.5" (or 1.3 or whatever it turns out to be) run.

I take off fores and keep them for parts wash or charcoal lighter.

Then I collect down to oily tails and turn off the still.

All that goes into the barrel, for however long it takes to make the magic.

And magic it is, my fervent belief is that 99% of the magic happens in the barrel - maybe what we do accounts for a little more I don't know, seems like what comes out is that much better than what goes in.

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:26 am
by googe
I have always struggled with the end of heads into hearts, taste does it for me. Heads, lip, tounge burn, hearts, back of throat, warming sensation.

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:35 am
by Rrmuf
+1 googe: ... and by the time you get to tail cuts, you just don't care as much ;-)

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:19 pm
by tiramisu
Read this thread tonight. Not sure whether I learned anything. But I have a lot of questions.
Changing flavor through modifying the fermentation process seems pretty obvious.

Differing ester production at different temperatures within the yeast range, initial SG seems like it could be a thing. Worth playing with. PH again probably worth playing within a narrow range. Secondary fermentation. Yeast types. Bacterial infection. Grain Bill. The original objective of reducing heads seems almost irrelevant to the questions of what esters are created when at what temperature, PH, etc. Flavours that you are targetting for a rum are different than those you are targeting for an Irish whiskey. Any biochemists in the house that have published on this kind of thing?

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:04 pm
by Rrmuf
So, a year on from when I ran into this thread, I do find I am making cuts for neutrals based on smell. And I do find that 50% of the neutral runs, my heads are really narrow. For reference, my washes are always between 8.5 & 9.5% ABV.

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:08 pm
by bluc
I cut by smell and taste.
I definately aim for zero heads or tails I used to cut EVERY run into seperate jars and only keep what I class as hearts(i have experimented blending some late heads early tails. It aint for me.)
After quite a while I developed my smell and taste. I now often do a large container hearts with few jars either side of the large jar.
With whiskey whisky On my plater I often find a half stubbie of very grainy flavour right before tails. That is about as deep as I go..

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:41 am
by Rrmuf
I definitely rely more on smell. I will try a bit on tongue, lips. I also find that the astringency in the heads sometimes will only become apparent with a day of rest under seal. I did take a narrow heads cut this last batch, mostly based on an abundance of prudence and absolutely no greed. It was clean and would have felt like a waste were it not for the fact that I can re-distil in my next stripping run.

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:35 am
by fzbwfk9r
Just a thought
if 90% of the budget is spent on fermentation
and 10% spent on distillation

what the heck do they do with the booze??? pour it on the floor?

the math does NOT add up!
(just say'n)

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:04 pm
by Metalking00
I think that the idea of trying to have the best ferment possible to prevent unnecessary bad stuff from being made is right, but Odin, when you say a pro distiller often does a 3-5% fores cut based on charge volume, what volume would that be? If you did a 5% "fores" cut on 100l of low wines that would be 5 liters. Seems to me that would be just grouping "fores" and a part of "heads" and simply calling it fores, and chooing a somewhat arbitrary stopping point to give a desired cost/quality balance to the final product. If i seperated the first 10-15% of my usual runs as "fores", i may not be making a "heads" cut, but i would still be doing it- just by a different name, no?

Edit: didnt realize i missed many, many pages of the thread....will go back and read them :oops:

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:44 pm
by shadylane
Metalking00 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:04 pm

Edit: didnt realize i missed many, many pages of the thread....will go back and read them :oops:
It's not a sin to bring the discussion back to the OP's question or statement. :lol:

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:48 am
by Rrmuf
A couple things related to the last few comments:

1. "What do they do with the booze": There are numerous topics on what to do with the foreshots, heads and tails (and backwash) so search that, but the bottom line is if it is unpleasant volatiles and not clean spirit then it's a by-product: we don't drink it.
2. 90% on fermentation / 10% on distillation is a purported equipment budget and not really a % of the resulting run: Odin's and others point is there is ALOT more attention to mashing and fermenting required to make a great tasting spirit.
3. Yes: 5% of 100l is 5l. :-)

Odin suggests in this topic that you can minimize (or even eliminate) a heads cut which I found interesting because I was religiously taking a heads cut off my neutral run on a sugar wash eventhough it seemed like I was cutting off clean spirit ... then I run into this thread that said maybe that is not necessary! I do a foreshot sacrifice for sure! Now, I do make smaller samplings at the beginning. BUT if after a day there is *any* question on whether a jar is clean, I pitch it into the feints jar anyways.

... and now I am much more motivated about taking care of my fermentations!

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:19 am
by NormandieStill
One of my planned process changes is a temperature controlled fermentation cabinet, but this will have to wait until I have a dedicated space for fermenting and stilling. My ferments are currently in the house, which doesn't vary much from day to day in the winter, but tends to have larger swings in the summer.

And following recommendations on here I now dry my teabags and then soak them in fores as a firelighter. This winter I've not had bought any firelighters, and I find that the teabags light the fire faster than the commercial ones I was using.

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:34 am
by EricTheRed
Yup and your welcome :D
And following recommendations on here I now dry my teabags and then soak them in fores as a firelighter. This winter I've not had bought any firelighters, and I find that the teabags light the fire faster than the commercial ones I was using

Re: Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:13 am
by Rrmuf
Yes. Temperature control for fermentation is a big improvement depending on your environment (like mine). I just use a seedling heater .... and I think it's the one place where we can honestly recommend a PID temperature controller. :-) . It should, in theory, help reduce your heads.

There are a few other threads on uses of foreshots. Maybe the teabag firelighter is a new one to be added there.