Boiler Pressure Relief

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harley03
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by harley03 »

Here you have Steam valve that are below 0,5bar/kg…

5psi= 0,35kg/cm2

http://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Valve-13-2 ... valve+8psi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Apollo Valve 13-211 Series Bronze Safety Relief Valve, ASME Steam, 5 psi Set Pressure, 3/4" NPT Male x Female


Brand Name

Apollo Valve



Part Number

13211B05


Yes you can find them in both 5psi and 8psi and 8 psi is to much = 0,56kg/cm2 ( for inside EU)


Cheers from Sweden.
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by Jacksonbrown »

Cheers for the link
How much can the valve actually release?
With the size of it I’d say it will be fine but the max power in the boiler will produce a certain amount of steam, the relief valve needs to be able to deal with this plus a bit more for safety margin.
It just as important consideration as the break pressure. I didn’t see those number on the page.

A big plus with this one is it is combined vacuum relief too.
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by shadylane »

I don't know how much power a 3/4" relief valve can release. But if I remember correctly.
When blowing steam out a 1/2" hole @ 5500w my manometer stays below 6 inches of water pressure.
So a 3/4" safety valve should be massive over kill for flow on a hobby sized still.
I like the idea of too big that way it is less likely to get plugged up.
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by Hound Dog »

A 50 gallon water heater has a 3/4" pressure relief valve. Don't see why it won't work for a 15 gallon keg.
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by likker liker »

Hound Dog
I think you're on the right track. Wouldn't it be the power input vs the ability to vent. The Last time I was looking for a hot water tank even the biggest(tank and amp ) one still used 3/4 vent.
I'm thinking that once the tanks relief valve hits it's limit, at least it never goes past that point again :think:
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by cob »

Hound Dog wrote:A 50 gallon water heater has a 3/4" pressure relief valve. Don't see why it won't work for a 15 gallon keg.
way to much pressure ! my water heater blow off reads 150psi.

blow off your air compressor at 100 psi and see if that is what you want your still to sound like.

as stated many times in many threads a properly built and operated still is self venting.
be water my friend
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by shadylane »

A water heater relief blows off at 150psi but it also blows off when the temp is at or below 212f
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by shadylane »

On a side note when an air compressor safety valve blows off, the pressure drops rather quickly.
When a boiler at 100psi vents it's damned impressive or scary depending on the circumstances.
That's why we need a pressure safety valve that vents at a low pressure.
5psi sounds like a good idea, wish I'd bought that instead of a 15psi safety valve.
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by likker liker »

What!!!! Your comparing a compressor to a hot water tank apples and oranges
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by shadylane »

Compressed air "apples"
Hot water heater "oranges" that could possibly go boom
Boiler "pineapple hand grenade"
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by cob »

just for perspective I have a 500 gallon air tank that runs at 70psi.
the first time I had to work on it I blew it down to 5 psi before I took the
1.5" plug from the side of the tank. when the threads cleared, the plug
was blown through the sheetrock, and the air blew 3 gallon cans of paint
off the adjacent shelf. it took 40-50 seconds to finish blowing down.
1 psi is more pressure than you want in a still.
a mechanical pressure relief of any kind cannot be trusted.
a clear water trap is almost foolproof, almost.
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by still_stirrin »

Its all about the energy within, right?

For water, the saturation temperature of 1 psig steam is only 215.3 F. At 5 psig, it's 227.1 F. At 15 psig, its all the way up to 249.7 F.

As the temperature goes up, so does the potential "stored" energy (enthalpy) in part due to the density increase as the pressure goes up as well. This means that a given volume has more mass at increased pressure (and saturation) temperature.

This volume would include your piping system. So "blowdown" will dissipate greater energy as the pressure goes up....not just a louder "fart".

The quoted numbers are from here: https://www5.eere.energy.gov/manufactur ... pSaturated" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by harley03 »

This is the number that a have get from a company engineer that are selling ATEX/EX classified safety valves also to the Nuklear industry here in Sweden …

This is the number/data that a needed to my different plants/ power and the Max Power is that they count, note the size of the plants…

5,5kW; 9,9kg/h mättad ånga / saturated steam
16,5kW; 29kg/h mättad ånga/ saturated steam
33kW; 60kg/h mättad ånga / saturated steam

Hope that this helps … then you need to se how much saturned steam the safety valve can handle … compare to yours max power

Sorry but my English issnt so good but a hope that you understand it...

Cheers from Sweden
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

still_stirrin wrote:Its all about the energy within, right?

For water, the saturation temperature of 1 psig steam is only 215.3 F. At 5 psig, it's 227.1 F. At 15 psig, its all the way up to 249.7 F.

As the temperature goes up, so does the potential "stored" energy (enthalpy) in part due to the density increase as the pressure goes up as well. This means that a given volume has more mass at increased pressure (and saturation) temperature.

This volume would include your piping system. So "blowdown" will dissipate greater energy as the pressure goes up....not just a louder "fart".

The quoted numbers are from here: https://www5.eere.energy.gov/manufactur ... pSaturated" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
ss
or
harley03 wrote:This is the number that a have get from a company engineer that are selling ATEX/EX classified safety valves also to the Nuklear industry here in Sweden …

This is the number/data that a needed to my different plants/ power and the Max Power is that they count, note the size of the plants…

5,5kW; 9,9kg/h mättad ånga / saturated steam
16,5kW; 29kg/h mättad ånga/ saturated steam
33kW; 60kg/h mättad ånga / saturated steam

Hope that this helps … then you need to se how much saturned steam the safety valve can handle … compare to yours max power

Sorry but my English issnt so good but a hope that you understand it...

Cheers from Sweden
or
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

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harley03 wrote:This is the number that a have get from a company engineer that are selling ATEX/EX classified safety valves also to the Nuklear industry here in Sweden …

This is the number/data that a needed to my different plants/ power and the Max Power is that they count, note the size of the plants…

5,5kW; 9,9kg/h mättad ånga / saturated steam
16,5kW; 29kg/h mättad ånga/ saturated steam
33kW; 60kg/h mättad ånga / saturated steam

Hope that this helps … then you need to se how much saturned steam the safety valve can handle … compare to yours max power

Sorry but my English issnt so good but a hope that you understand it...

Cheers from Sweden

Here can you go in and controll what the safety valve can handle in saturned steam....

http://www.apollovalves.com/_literature ... safety.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


5psi= 0,35kg/cm2

http://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Valve-13-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ... valve+8psi

Apollo Valve 13-211 Series Bronze Safety Relief Valve, ASME Steam, 5 psi Set Pressure, 3/4" NPT Male x Female


Brand Name

Apollo Valve



Part Number

13211B05


Yes you can find them in both 5psi and 8psi and 8 psi is to much = 0,56kg/cm2 ( for inside EU)

Cheers from Sweden
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by Hound Dog »

cob wrote:
Hound Dog wrote:A 50 gallon water heater has a 3/4" pressure relief valve. Don't see why it won't work for a 15 gallon keg.
way to much pressure ! my water heater blow off reads 150psi.

blow off your air compressor at 100 psi and see if that is what you want your still to sound like.

as stated many times in many threads a properly built and operated still is self venting.
The valve he linked to was for 8 pounds. Then someone chimed in that it was only 3/4" diameter and that would not be big enough. I compared the 3/4" diameter on a water heater to the keg. Still at 8 pounds. I don't know where the 100 pounds came from :crazy:
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by harley03 »

Safetyvalve 13-211-B15 with a set pressure of 5psi= 0,35kg

Max capacity with 15psi set pressure is= 475Lbs/hr

475 pounds =
215.456376 kilograms


* National Board Capacity Certified at 15 psig (90% of actual capacity at 33% accumulation.)

If I look on my Swedish paper of my approved safety valve and look on the diagram/flow when you have a set pressure of 0,4bar/kg and compare the flow with a set pressure of 1,0bar/kg …

So my “thinking” of this safety valve 13-211-B15 is that it shold be able to handle about 30% of 475LBS/hr when the set pressure is also only about 30%…

5 psi instead of 15 psi that this 475LBS/hr so about/around 142 LBS/hr feels okey and should be in the safety limit in my way of thinking….
1Lbs/pound= 0.45359237 kilograms
142Lbs= 64,32kg/h

Around/ about 64kg/hour saturated steam… shall this Safety valve 13-211-B15- 3/4" NPT Male x Female with a set pressure of 5psi be able to handle.

That is around 33kw= 60kg/h saturned steam in Max power if a have calculated and translated it right….

And it is wery, wery cheap and lucky for you that are living in Usa because there it is approved in distilling plants (what a understand).. to the low price of only about 50 dollar.. More than 10 time cheaper than my safety valve here in Sweden…..

Apollo Valve 13-211 Series Bronze Safety Relief Valve, ASME Steam, 5 psi Set Pressure, 3/4" NPT Male x Female
Price: $48.80

Here in Sweden a pay about 500usd+ 25% tax for my approved ATEX/EX safety valve with all certificate that it is needed inside EU…

Cheers from Sweden
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by harley03 »

Here is the link again… and if it issnt work try to wright : Apollo Valve 13-211 Series Bronze Safety Relief Valve, ASME Steam, 5 psi Set Pressure, 3/4" NPT Male x Female
In amazon.com….

http://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Valve-13-2 ... lve++5+psi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Cheers from Sweden..
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by harley03 »

No Comments... :idea: :roll:



Cheers from Sweden
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by Brutal »

I am so confused right now
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by Edwin Croissant »

Joe Shortlife had a sound business plan and purchased a 1000 kg nett content multiplate still complete with explosion proof appendages and a expensive pressure relieve valve set at 0.5 bar with an even more expensive certificate to circumvent the Pressure Equipment Directive.

Joe took his still apart after each run to meticulously clean the internals. The cleaning and removal of the fusel oils payed off, his product was highly rated. So much that he could hardly meet the demand.

Joe worked long hours and one night he forgot a old t-shirt he used for cleaning and left it in the vapor path. He prepared his still for the next day and went to bed. The next morning he switched on the heating, set his alarm clock and went on doing his bookkeeping for the revenue office. Just when the alarm went of he got a call from on of his customers who wanted to negotiate a big order. After the call he rushed into the still room. Everything looks normal although his boiler temperature was 10 degrees higher then normal. Puzzled he looked through the sight glass into the boiler.

The sight glass was mounted and unmounted many times and developed a n unseen crack. At 0.4 bar the sight glass shattered and the pressure in the boiler dropped instantly to the atmospheric pressure. The extra ~42 MJ of energy ( ~9 kg of TNT) stored in the boiler charge caused by the raise in boiling point had to go somewhere and instantly evaporated ~19 kg of boiler content into 30 m3 of vapor. The content of the boiler emptied itself as hot boiling foam through the the sight glass hole , burning Joe to the bone and knocking the complete still from the foundation through the wall. The internal shock wave smashed the boiler and column into pieces. The large amount of vapor shattered windows, blasted doors out of their hinges and shattered a non explosive light fixture in the next room igniting the vapor cloud. The subsequent fire burned the place down. The only salvageable part of the still was the expensive relieve valve. Joe Shortlife and his distillery were no more.

A safety valve is a designed weakest link and if you use it you have to make bloody sure it is the weakest link. That means you will have to hydrostaticly test your equipment every time you took it apart. I don't see that happen at a distillery. So in my humble point of view “protecting” a still with a 0.5 bar pressure relieve valve is complete and utterly madness.

It is not the pressure in the still that kills you, its the excessive energy in the boiler content, caused by the higher boiling point, that is instantly released when the still de-pressurize. The first book I found on the subject is called “STEAM-BOILER EXPLOSIONS ” by R.H. THURSTON, printed in 1903. Interesting read indeed. In 1885, 155 boilers exploded in the U.S. alone killing 220 persons and injuring 288 persons. It was not until around 1860 that it was understood that not the steam but the stored energy in the water was causing the destructive effects. Those were interesting times.

Your 50 kg nett capacity boiler stores a equivalent of 0.45 kg of TNT at 0.4 bar over pressure due to the higher boiling point. Thats a couple of hand grenades. Now you know where the energy came from in the Mythbusters boiler experiments. They had to run that diesel generator really long to get to 20 bar by heat alone. And all that energy was instantly released when the bottom popped out launching the boiler through several floors a hundred meter into the air.

Savalle and Sorel were almost killed in a boiler explosion. As a result they developed and patented a steam regulation valve that was controlled by the boiler pressure, effectively shutting off the heat supply at a high boiler pressure. Stopping the heat is I think the safest action.

Even a low overpressure can be life threatening. I have seen a short movie of a iStill 50 that has shut itself off when it detected a high boiler pressure due to a clogged column. The distiller opened the fill hole and the still instantly emptied its hot boiling content straight up reaching the 4,5 meter high ceiling. A sure way to end up in a burn center.

Opening a pressurized hot still is like looking into the barrel of your handgun after a misfire. Don't even think about it.

So you do not only have to stop the heat, you also have to remove the excessive heat caused by the pressure before you take any action.

I like Max_Vino's solution. To relieve the pressure the fluid is dumped which has a lower ABV then the vapor. If the stem throws up into a small container connected to a electrical switch or a gas valve by means of a lever a “high pressure” (10 – 20 cm H2O) this will kill the gas or electrical supply to the still. If your still is isolated some extra tubing around the vessel with quick connection couplers can come handy to rapidly cool the still to remove the pressure.
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by thecroweater »

Thanks for posting this really good post Edwin, some great points I have been trying to make in some other threads 8) :thumbup:
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by NZChris »

Well put Edwin. I hope more people 'get it' after reading that.
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

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Interesting comments and as you point out, Anything can happen and that is exactly why these rules exist in the EU!

I do not know what you'll have for laws and regulations in the United States, but I know the laws inside the EU ...

The Istill 50 that you refer to so I guess it has an approved safety valve on it and the set pressure is below 0.5 bar! and all the electrical components are ATEX / EX classified otherwise it is not legal in the EU!

Now we all legitimate EU manufacturers forced to relate to 2pc EU laws and one of them is the EU's Pressure Equipment Directive where anything Above 0.5 bar must be classed....

The other European Law are ATEX / Ex rating on All electrical components on and around the still and inside the ATEX / EX zone ...

In addition, you exit from the safety valve must culminate outside the premises / property/outside or yours plant shall Note be approved!

For illegal use / home distillation or use in other countries outside the EU then you can do whatever you want and desire.

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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by skow69 »

That's a great allegory, Edwin. The physics involved are not at all obvious. It's not surprising that it took until 1860 to understand what was happening. Before that it must have seemed like the wrath of God being released.
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by Edwin Croissant »

Harley03, I am from the Netherlands and your post gave me an odd feeling. You say that you know EU laws and you also say that there are only two applicable laws for your equipment, the PED and ATEX. Let me assure you that your equipment also have to comply with the Machinery Directive. This means that you will have to do a risk assessment, keep a updated technical file and provide user documentation among many other things. If something go wrong with your equipment officials will ask for these documents, they will ask for strength calculations of your boiler and column, results of hydrostatic pressure test, your risk assessment etc. If yo never considered that the Machinery Directive is applicable to your equipment you better get in touch with somebody who can help you with this. If something bad happens and you fail to show that your equipment complies, you are toast and out of business.
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

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Edwin Croissant wrote:Harley03, I am from the Netherlands and your post gave me an odd feeling. You say that you know EU laws and you also say that there are only two applicable laws for your equipment, the PED and ATEX. Let me assure you that your equipment also have to comply with the Machinery Directive. This means that you will have to do a risk assessment, keep a updated technical file and provide user documentation among many other things. If something go wrong with your equipment officials will ask for these documents, they will ask for strength calculations of your boiler and column, results of hydrostatic pressure test, your risk assessment etc. If yo never considered that the Machinery Directive is applicable to your equipment you better get in touch with somebody who can help you with this. If something bad happens and you fail to show that your equipment complies, you are toast and out of business.

This is interesting Because You May have right in what you are saying!

What a have been told Is that the Machinery Directive does not apply to simple pressure vessels equipment which has NO moving parts, and it fall under the ATEX and PED regelementet/directive only...

I've just started to read the Swedish version of the Machinery Directive and there are some indications that a distillation plant and also "loose/single" parts type columns and more also falls under this Directive.... with the documentation of everything ....

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/ ... 006_sv.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/ ... 006_en.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


But CE marking is good and to do that a need al that document that you have had named and some more, and a have already most of them and of course all my parts are pressure tested with water more that 2 time higher ( 1 bar is my max test pressure with water for my own safety) than the set pressure of the safety valve that have is Max set pressure of 0,4 bar and a auto/return set/close pressure of 0,1 bar...

I thank you for making me aware of this and a should check this with a Big engineer company ( Certified) here in Sweden that made CE marking and inspections to/against all of this 3pc directive and a shall se that a get the response from them in written ... so there is NO miss understanding later...

You see a build and test it all out small scale before a scale it up to 8 "and 12", and this a do becouse a like to do it and this issnt anything a do to made money from .... but a dont what to loose any money either ...

It is my Legaly hobby,, little big hobby, but what...... and if anyone what to by it from me then am happy to sell it to them for a good price, but a only sell inside Sweden.....
Cheers from Sweden
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by Edwin Croissant »

Thank you for your compliments gentlemen. I am thinking of ordering a modified keg and when watching that iStill spraying it boiling content against the 4.5 meter high ceiling and read about the Silver Trail Distillery explosion (and I expect this happened due to a clogged condenser or column) I started to think about how to prevent this. To stay in the mood I combined some engravings from the above mentioned book. The explosion occurred at Norwich, Connecticut, December 23, 1881, This boiler was 3 feet in diameter, 7 feet high and operating at 60 psi. The explosion probably took place at or a little below this pressure, throwing the boiler through the roof and high over a group of buildings and a tall tree close by, finally burying itself half its diameter in the frozen ground. It is a good thing that the Mythbusters did not read this book as that would have deprived us from one of their more interesting episodes of their show.
Vertical boiler explosion.png
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by harley03 »

60 Psi (Psi) =4.13685 Bar

4,1 bar/kg is what a shall have in pressure in bottom from about 41 meter hight water staple….

0,4bar/kg= 5,80150951 pounds per square inch = 5,8Psi

So yours “explosion” example have about ten/10 time higher pressure than me and the safety valve from Usa a show before…..

Is it anyone here that have any idea what pressure you rely have inside yours boiler when you are distilling with max power and full reflux….. and with different type of column/ filling material and numbers/type of plates and height of the column….…

Over 0,1bar/kg is much.. rely much pressure and “maybe” you can get that high if you have column filled with small SPP, lava rock ore scrubbers inside the columns…. It is 1 meter of water that give this pressure in the bottom…

0,4bar/ kg is what a shall have in pressure in bottom from 4 meter high water staple and that is my Max height of the big columns….

Cheers from Sweden
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Re: Boiler Pressure Relief

Post by harley03 »

This with the macine directive is interesting = CE marking/Macine directive= needed Over 0,5bar…… :?:
This a rely must go to the bottom with…..
Becouse the Germans is more ore less always follow the law… and made/set the new laws… inside EU…

http://www.brennereianlagen.de/contents ... ungen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Cheers from Sweden
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