Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by Saltbush Bill »

If your still is what i think it is you dont need and should never use a needle valve on it
If you did you would be creating a bomb
Product flow from a CM is controlled purely by cooling management.
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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by Stonecutter »

I hear ya there. :thumbup:
1B576593-C1A4-4F24-B375-AF7DD487D00D.jpeg
My column is rather short though (20”/50 cm from boiler top to bottom of reflux chamber) and being that I’m already going to stuff some copper mesh inside, I’m not going to have a ton of room for the marbles thus affecting my HETP’s. Also, as has been discussed here ad nauseam, every still and every operator runs differently so in the end the results are subjective to a degree.
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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Probably better to start a new topic elsewhere, this is getting way off topic.
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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by Stonecutter »

Rad started this topic to investigate marbles as reflux packing.
I noticed that no one had used etched marbles and I’d like to do my own side by side experiment. Albeit on a smaller scale. I can only benefit from what I learn. Saltbush with all due respect you asked me about my still so I answered.
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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Stonecutter wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:13 pm Saltbush with all due respect you asked me about my still so I answered.
I meant if further discussion on needle valves and how reflux stills are run, if the whys , whens and hows was needed ......nothing more than that.
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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by Sulaiman »

ga flatwoods wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:09 am Instead of round marbles what about using the flat ones like used for fish tanks or clear vase displays for flowers. They come multicolored and are sold at most stores in the craft section.
I tried something similar but smaller, glass beads for sterilising manicure equipment
... Not good as the void spaces are irregular causing lower vapour velocity, channeling and easily causing flooding.
I've tried glass spheres (listed as slingshot/catapult ammunition!) of 10mm, 7mm, 6mm and 3mm diameter
... smaller = better.
(simple theory gives HETP proportional to diameter)
The 3mm glass spheres give a HETP of about 50mm at 2:1 reflux ratio in my 25mm diameter all glass thermally insulated column.
(I had difficulty estimating the hetp as the difference between 6 and 7 plates is quite small when starting at c40%ABV)

PS beads with holes through them cause the holdup to be quite high which results in the smearing of fractions
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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by Stonecutter »

I’m simply looking at etched vs polished. Still_Stirrin used 1/2” to great effect and rad used 5/8”. I looked through the topic and I know there was quite a bit of talk regarding marble size. I’m not sure how conclusive the results were though. :econfused: I believe like you stated, flooding becomes an issue with less void for the liquid to move through.
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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:46 am
Stonecutter wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:13 pm Saltbush with all due respect you asked me about my still so I answered.
I meant if further discussion on needle valves and how reflux stills are run, if the whys , whens and hows was needed ......nothing more than that.
Thanks for keeping us on the straight and narrow Bill :wave:
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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by Stonecutter »

Clear Glass Marbles 1/2" in...


These are the marbles I bought but I’m concerned about the chemical makeup of this glass. What do you guys think? Is this going to be safe to place in the column?
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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by still_stirrin »

Stonecutter wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:05 pmThese are the marbles I bought but I’m concerned about the chemical makeup of this glass. What do you guys think? Is this going to be safe to place in the column?
They’re GLASS! When you drink a highball in a glass, do you worry about the formulation of ingredients that was used to make the glass? Do you know how they make a crystal champagne glass? And yet, we all drink from them.

I think people worry way too much about the composition of the marbles. Glass is glass and your alcohol won’t affect it at all. And you can spend a lot of cash to get “etched marbles” and maybe it will improve the HETP a little. But will it be worth it? Making the column 10% taller will easily compensate for any etching improvements.

My experience with glass marbles, yes...the ones from the hobby shop, work fine. And if (and when) they break or crack, it is easy and economical to replace the damaged marbles, if needed.

The glass is a good thermal insulator so it allows a very efficient heat transfer between rising vapors (hot) and falling condensate (cool) stimulating the reflux interaction. Sure, structured packing or rashig rings are better for reflux, but they are much more expensive. I considered cost versus effectiveness and maintenance and the marbles win hands down!

In my 39” tall 2” OD copper column, the 13mm (1/2”) marbles work great (95%ABV). Slightly smaller diameter would probably be slightly more effective, but the 13mm are a standard size and as such....quite inexpensive. Less than $10USD fills my column, with extra marbles to spare. Try to match that with scrubbies, SPP, or rashig rings!

And the best part....you simply pour them into the column (gently) and empty them out by pouring as well. I soak them in a plastic jug of hot water to clean them and then put them into an old pillow case to dry store. Easy as can be!
ss

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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by Stonecutter »

You know when you’re getting knocked upside the head by SS it’s a safe bet that you’re good to go. :lol: Thanks for putting my concerns at ease Brotha.
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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by StillerBoy »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:25 pm I think people worry way too much about the composition of the marbles. Glass is glass and your alcohol won’t affect it at all. And you can spend a lot of cash to get “etched marbles” and maybe it will improve the HETP a little. But will it be worth it? Making the column 10% taller will easily compensate for any etching improvements.
+1

I personally like the 10 - 11mm one for the 2" column..

And work very good when for used in hybrid mode in the reflux column.. good for compressing the heads, pot mode for the body..

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Re: Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

Post by Saltbush Bill »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:25 pm Making the column 10% taller will easily compensate for any etching improvements.
Good point.
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