Signifigant ethanol evaporation during handling?

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Blais
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Signifigant ethanol evaporation during handling?

Post by Blais » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:50 am

I was browsing an interesting article on Vodka filtration where 24 people sampled Grey Goose and a brita-filtered budget vodka in a blind taste test. The cheap, home-filtered vodka won and the testers hypothesized that it might have been evaporation of some of the ethanol during the filtration process, making the cheap stuff easier to drink.
Our hydrometer readings showed significant differences in alcohol concentration between the three varieties of vodka: Ketel One measured 88 proof, unfiltered Pavlova 82 proof, and filtered Pavlova 78 proof. We suspect that the reduced alcohol content in the filtered vodka was not actually a result of the filtration, but rather evaporation during the filtration process, as it was repeatedly poured from container to container.
Anyway, I was wondering if what they encountered was common and should I be worried about inadvertantly lowering proofs as I experiment with different distillations and infusions? I actually just filtered about 3.5 gallons of cheap stuff through a brita in hopes of producing a better base for fruit infusions and now I'm wondering if I've significantly lowered the alcohol content (82 - 78 proof is significant to me ;) ). Also, my vodka is kept in a 1.5 gallon glass jar with a pretty loose fitting lid, which I've taped down, and I was wondering if I'd run into evaporation problems just by having it sit in the jar. I've filled whatever empty bottles I had with the vodka from the jar and I get the feeling I'm just being paranoid. Is it ok to store it in the jar? I've searched for topics like this but haven't found much, so any light you could shed would be appreciated. :D

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dundehead

signifigant evaporatin

Post by dundehead » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:31 am

I do not thank it 's evaporation it's being
asorbd into charcool run seval thru and see



if any buddy ask i'm making beer
i condens it so it fits in bottle

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plastic

Post by Uncle Jesse » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:34 am

I'd be very wary of running your alcohol through or storing it in plastic. Very bad for you.
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bronzdragon
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Post by bronzdragon » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:10 am

Like UJ said, I wouldn't use one of the Brita water filters for alcohol. This topic has been brought up many times and there is more then just charcoal in those filters.

~r~
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defcon4
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Post by defcon4 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:54 am

But back to the original question, if containers were left open for aeration, or if they were put through a brita filter (poured from glass to glass multiple times), would there be a significant amount of ethanol evaporation?
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Red Eye Rising

Post by Red Eye Rising » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:19 am

What the experts are not taking into account is you can not measure a finished vodka because most all importers use additives. Glycerine is the primary one but there are three or four they use. Been there, kind of thing. I scratched my head for days until the research was done. All of the products are exactly 80 proof before finishing unless labeled differently.

In the case of filtering very dirty spirit and weighing the carbon full of one tpye contaminent vs another is a lab job at best. Evaporation will be the same for all of them if exposed equaly, or very close.

Hope that makes sense.

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Post by Blais » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:27 am

bronzdragon wrote:Like UJ said, I wouldn't use one of the Brita water filters for alcohol. This topic has been brought up many times and there is more then just charcoal in those filters.

~r~
Duly noted. I've weighed the cons of the brita process fully and it's really just a pinch measure (didn't have the money for the good stuff and I have a deadline). I'm really just interested in the posibility of large evaporation losses as liquours are poured several times.

Red eye: I think I follow. I guess I'm probably best off buying an alcometer and doing before and after tests.
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punkin
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Post by punkin » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:34 am

Or cut your spirt after filtering? :wink:

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Post by BW Redneck » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:45 am

bronzdragon wrote:Like UJ said, I wouldn't use one of the Brita water filters for alcohol. This topic has been brought up many times and there is more then just charcoal in those filters.

~r~
There are ion exchange resins, etc....

If you want to carbon filter, then order some out of Brewhaus. The stuff is pure carbon, and it's probably cheaper even.
Most members here try not to carbon filter/sit their vodkas because it's a bitch to filter it out, and their stills are efficient enough to get rid of all of the congeners that would be filtered out by the carbon, thus, the carbon is not needed.
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Red Eye Rising

Post by Red Eye Rising » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:56 am

One more thing. That is a wine vinigar 'factory' vessel. It says Italy on the bottom. I have the 5 gal one. It is made to trap the sedimend below the spout. You buy a live mother and it will live in that for a lifetime or two. traditionaly they are handed down (one of the live mothers) in a new vessel such as that when a wedding or new household has been established. by adding wine and waiting a couple weeks you may then tap wine vinigar from the center of the vessel for salads and in place of balsamic vinigar to mix with oil for breads, and other cooking things. Good wine vinigars run 10- 45 dollars per pint with some topping the two to four hunderd dollar mark. Those usualy are 30 and 40 years on oak and other wood kegs.

Cab and Sangiovese being the most popular from that type of vessel. Wine with sulphite won't work and you can buy a good mother at most wine brew shops. You will see the lid is out of round. It seats when the seam is in line with the spout and turned 90% it should vent.

DO Not store spirit in these vessels! The seals on the lid and spout are not safe for spirits. Very old ones use cork seals, but the vessel is very expensive and its a waste of a very good capability and great hobby that goes hand in hand with winemaking and distilling. Never keep a live mother in the same part of the dwelling as were wine is made.

Red Eye Rising

Post by Red Eye Rising » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:02 am

[/quote]
Red eye: I think I follow. I guess I'm probably best off buying an alcometer and doing before and after tests.[/quote]

Well actualy it still won't work regardless of which measure you take. Those additives foul the readings on all glass measures. I mean I was really stumped for a long time cause nothing added up right.

Goose Eye will see this and probably have something to say on using beading oil. I would be most interested to hear his take on the traditional uses of the additives.

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Post by Blais » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:05 am

Red Eye Rising wrote:One more thing. That is a wine vinigar 'factory' vessel. It says Italy on the bottom. I have the 5 gal one. It is made to trap the sedimend below the spout. You buy a live mother and it will live in that for a lifetime or two. traditionaly they are handed down (one of the live mothers) in a new vessel such as that when a wedding or new household has been established. by adding wine and waiting a couple weeks you may then tap wine vinigar from the center of the vessel for salads and in place of balsamic vinigar to mix with oil for breads, and other cooking things. Good wine vinigars run 10- 45 dollars per pint with some topping the two to four hunderd dollar mark. Those usualy are 30 and 40 years on oak and other wood kegs.

Cab and Sangiovese being the most popular from that type of vessel. Wine with sulphite won't work and you can buy a good mother at most wine brew shops. You will see the lid is out of round. It seats when the seam is in line with the spout and turned 90% it should vent.

DO Not store spirit in these vessels! The seals on the lid and spout are not safe for spirits. Very old ones use cork seals, but the vessel is very expensive and its a waste of a very good capability and great hobby that goes hand in hand with winemaking and distilling. Never keep a live mother in the same part of the dwelling as were wine is made.
Now THAT is cool stuff! I had no idea! It's definitely something I need to try out. So why shouldn't you keep the mother near where wine-making is going on?

Edit: I'm guessing it's so that you don't accidently turn whatever wine you are making into vinegar by contaminating it with the mother bacteria?
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defcon4
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Post by defcon4 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:14 am

Vinegar posts should be in their own thread, in the beer and wine section of this forum here.

Again the original question can be clarified/outlined as follows:

IF <u>a</u> container of alcohol is left to open air (via pouring through a filter or just having the cap loose/off of the container it is in)
WILL a significant amount of ethanol evaporate and if so, what would be a normal expected drop in the %ABV in a given time period?
Towering in gallant fame,
Scotland my mountain hame,
High may your proud
standard gloriously wave,
Land of my high endeavour,
Land of the shining rivers,
Land of my heart for ever,
Scotland the brave!

Red Eye Rising

Post by Red Eye Rising » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:32 am

Yes. To understand better the mother is a symbiotic culture much like the SF sourdough culture. It looks like a placenta and make more smaller ones that float around with it. Your size is like the wedding gift one. The 5 gallon I have is for a large multi generational family dwelling. The lids must be removed periodicly to allow oxygen in, and as explained they vent excess pressure at times. Even though it is a symbiotic culture even a few airborne bacteria cells can get into wine making areas and ruin non sulphited and fermenting wines.

The ladies usualy keep them in the kitchen and sometimes sew special coats to keep strong light out. In poorer families undrank glasses of wine are poured in after meals and old half used bottles are also added.

Yeast is used to make alcohol from sugars, and the mother eats the alcohol and makes acetic acid. In ancient times they used the cheap vinigars to wash the sandled feet. It cures most all forms of athelets foot.


The process is the grapes are picked and fermed on the stems. The juice made to wines and the stems/waste distilled for grappa. The wines for vinigar are not sulphited and kept in small almost used up oak kegs. As a fresh batch of vinigar is tapped from the glass or clay vessel, the wine is removed from the keg into a carboy or bucket and the vinigar put into the used up keg where it will draw different parts of wood than the wine did and stay in it for 6 months to a year. The finishing kegs are made from oaks and fruitwoods as well as others. They are new. At o ne end of the row a barrel is emptied and bottled Then every other barrel is siphoned to the next keg down the row so each is imparted with the flavors from each type of keg. At home you may only use 2, a worn out one and a newer finish one from oak moving the batches along towards bottling.

Wine Vinigar from the 'factory' may be used directly or the excess transferred for oaking and aging. In very wealthy homes you may see a small row of these vessels inside on a small table each will have a different wine working in it depending on the servents for upkeep.

Red Eye Rising

Post by Red Eye Rising » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:43 am

defcon4 wrote:Vinegar posts should be in their own thread, in the beer and wine section of this forum here.

Again the original question can be clarified/outlined as follows:

IF a container of alcohol is left to open air (via pouring through a filter or just having the cap loose/off of the container it is in)
WILL a significant amount of ethanol evaporate and if so, what would be a normal expected drop in the %ABV in a given time period?
Yes you are correct they should have a specific spot.


To answer the question, the easiest way to figure it out without redistilling all products away from the additives is to set a specified time limit. weigh each exact measure of liquid and reweigh after. It is very likely in the mentioned case that some less desirable molecules were trapped in the carbon micropores or adhered to the carbon surface to cause the drop in abv but if anyone said that its a mere guess and should be thought as a possibility.

Chromospectograph stuff and beyond what we can do at home.

Remember each spirit has a differing cut and no spirit will contain the same ratios of various alcohols. Hope it makes some sense. I double talk myself into confusion at times. :-)

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Post by The Chemist » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:45 am

defcon4 wrote: IF <u>a</u> container of alcohol is left to open air (via pouring through a filter or just having the cap loose/off of the container it is in)
WILL a significant amount of ethanol evaporate and if so, what would be a normal expected drop in the %ABV in a given time period?
Yes--it depends on the temperature, relative humidity, and wind speed...oh, and the size of the 'hole', somewhat.
Purposeful motion, for one so insane...

Blais
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Post by Blais » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:03 am

Very good.
Thanks for the replies!
Vino Veritas

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