CCVM Inclined still

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poppadidital
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CCVM Inclined still

Post by poppadidital »

In an effort to come up something new i came up with this.
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pfshine
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by pfshine »

I think you would have some serious issues with surging. I am not quite sure of your reasoning behind such small pipe for a reflux still.
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der wo
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by der wo »

I think, you get pressure because the flooding V-traps. Thats first a safety issue. And the abv will fluctuate because of that.
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pfshine
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by pfshine »

The pressure would be negligible with a couple of those p traps but I think the surging of liquid out of the outlet would be a big problem. You won't get nice controlled bubbling with this setup. The traps would be constantly getting blown out with very little mass or heat transfer. But hell give it a try and hope that I'm wrong. You can't have innovation and evolution in a field without new idea to test.
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by rad14701 »

I don't recall anyone trying that exact method but it may have been discussed previously... Similar ideas have been tried, however... One of those attempts was to use a series of overlapping slant plates working like bubble trays... As I recall, the results were less than stellar... Bokakob may have posted a modular design using the overlapping slant plates... Not sure if he ever built a proof of concept prototype though...

If you have time and money to invest, give it a go and report your findings...
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Danespirit
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by Danespirit »

With the given construction, it will work like a waterlock in the V -traps.
Theoretical it would act like one small plate.
So you would get a higher ABV as in a potstill, but not as high as you would get it from a traditional packed column.
Anyway i foresee some trouble with the vaporflow, once all the traps are filled...it will bubble like hell in that column..!
If you have the time and material for it, give this rather unusual design a go..
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by still_stirrin »

I agree with pfshine...I think it'll pulse and surge with the vapor collapsing and surging through the liquid traps.

Danespirit, I think you're right too in that it will gain purity similar to a single plate (or thumper), but not near as effective as a packed column.

My thinking is that it will be difficult to run due to the instability of the vapor flow out of the product outlet.

Poppadidital, you don't show a product condenser, but you're venting vapor out of the top reflux condenser's product outlet. I assume you will have a product condenser connected to that outlet...right?
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by NZChris »

I'm picking the puddling in the Vs will cause smearing.
45South
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by 45South »

Hi poppadidital, I have recently made an experimental column similar to your concept. It is made of 42 mm ccss so I can try various depths and volumes of s traps (bubblers). After cleaning runs have only managed 1 run with leftover grain squeezings.
I had no issues with surging just a nice steady gurgling. The first configuration was 3 traps at different angles so by raising the liebig end I could run 1, 2, or 3 traps. This configuration held approx 1 liter in the unpacked column. For the next trial I will solder a reflux condenser sleeve on the uphill b4 the product condenser, and have a longer horizontal in the trap for more dwell time. Not having any product left to run at the moment and too many projects calling it may not be till xmas. Good luck with your build, cheers, Norm.
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pfshine
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by pfshine »

What abv did you get from it? And how much heat was applied?
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by still_stirrin »

It's really just a potstill with a couple of puddles of condensate in it. Not really a reflux producer. It's not the same as poppadidital's proposed CCVM, which has reflux and a vapor takeoff.
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by 45South »

pfshine wrote:What abv did you get from it? And how much heat was applied?
Hi pfshine, it was only a 15 liter batch of leftovers in 65 liter boiler for a check run, so i ran it flat out till heat stated rising in column then backed to an idle for half an hour as heat made its way up, hoping to concentrate fores, collected 200mls and then full noise on lpg strip run as too small for anything else. With 1 liter of water to prime the column fores were at 56% then rose till 75% then steady decline till stopped at 20%. Charge was at 4%, sparged grains drained by gravity. Nothing conclusive at this stage but did function, and give thoughts on next experiments, cheers, Norm.
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by 45South »

still_stirrin wrote:It's really just a potstill with a couple of puddles of condensate in it. Not really a reflux producer. It's not the same as poppadidital's proposed CCVM, which has reflux and a vapor takeoff.
ss
Hi SS, yes it is at the moment, but is uses the same s traps, and this was the base case to have some figures from b4 adding the reflux condenser to see what changes in running I get. The idea of experimental was to try various bubbler configurations with a view to possibly making something like Larry's inline bubblers, cheers, Norm.
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by Brutal »

The proposed design here does include a moveable condenser that can take it from full reflux to take off at small increments. He is suggesting using a combination rc/pc that is less like the ccvm dad300 style and more like the original manu de hanoi version.. If you don't understand there is still a YouTube video on these forums if you search.

I think this design has a lot of merit but would be fiddley. The distance from the bottom of the elbow to the spill over to go back down will need tuning. Also the distance to the next pool and diameter of the pipe may require tuning for best results. Also having a small packed column below the angles and bends would likely help as well.

If this system was tuned out right I believe this could be a good performing set up. The problem I see is having to desolder the joints to make adjustments.

To the OP I would love to watch you see this experimentation through.
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Bagasso
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by Bagasso »

Is this any different than plates?

Not knocking it, since plated columns work. I'm just not understanding the negative comments.
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by Kegg_jam »

My first thought is that 3/4" isn't big enough to allow vapor up and reflux down at a practical speed.

Not nocking the idea. Just think that if the design is scaled up the cost of the elbows would get prohibitive.

So I guess the traps are supposed to be like mini thumpers, but how much mingling is going to happen with the vapor speed of 3/4" and the volume of liquid in each trap?

Still, I'd like to see the experimentation and wish you luck!
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by FullySilenced »

Do it cost would be very little to try...

In line mini thumpers kinda
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by poppadidital »

To all thank-you for the encouragement to pursue this design and as to the surging issue, I would rather use 1" but the elbows are $4.86 as opposed to $0.80 each and I haven't seen 1" pipe insulation locally.
45South
I have recently made an experimental column similar to your concept. It is made of 42 mm ccss...
I had no issues with surging just a nice steady gurgling.
At over twice the diameter your vapor speed is 1/5 mine, so I, not surprised you don't have surging.
Brutal
I think this design has a lot of merit but would be fiddley. The distance from the bottom of the elbow to the spill over to go back down will need tuning. Also the distance to the next pool and diameter of the pipe may require tuning for best results. Also having a small packed column below the angles and bends would likely help as well.
The plan Is to first determine the length of the length of the condenser using a modified prior build, as I don't have all parts for the larger boiler yet, then determine the length of the tubes between traps by running at full power with water trickling water down the tube to simulate reflux for tube test. Cut 10 % longer for the 5 planned sections. I'm trying to avoid packing for easy cleaning. Will keep everyone posted but be warned I'm slow.
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by manu de hanoi »

The CC condenser is supposed to work with a coil so that the condensate runs more or less perpendicular with the length of the condenser. I m afraid a cold finger wont be that good.

I like the super cheapness and simplicity of your design. You'll need a power controller to keep the surge under control. There is an optimal siphon diameter vs power that you'll have to find.
a 3/4" fitting doesnt give you 3/4" internal diameter, but likely less, so 1000W may be too much

The overflow should be a bit higher than the "underflow".
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by drmiller100 »

use 3/4 copper with a 1200 watt boiler, and leave the copper at about a 30 degree angle to horizontal. It takes about 6 feet of copper. If you use a bigger diameter, lay it over more.

Do NOT make pools or thumpers along the way.

make it reflux.

The copper tube has a "river" running down it of liquid. there is steam going up it. the copper pipe transfers the heat from the steam up into the river, boiling the river, creating turbulence.

this is as efficient a column as there is if you measure ml of product per watt per minute.

here is a ROUGH picture. I am making fuel, so I use materials not appropriate for drinking.

http://www.nvntrs.com/advanced-theory.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

if you use the coiled up copper, Be VERY careful to not have any pooling, and try to get it a lot more consistent than the pic shown. 3/4 rigid copper with a hotwater heater flex at teh top of the boiler into the "column" is a LOT easier to set up.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
poppadidital
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by poppadidital »

still have a few things to get and figure out, but here's a mock up.
[img]still.jpg[/img]
poppadidital
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Re: CCVM Inclined still

Post by poppadidital »

opps, forgot the size limit :D
still-2.jpg
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