Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

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Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by LWTCS » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:49 am

Hi
So Bushman has been working on this concept and I can't get it out of my brain since he started talking about it. I've been super busy but now do finally have time to get this done.

I'm going to build a couple of these prototypes and looking for volunteer users to give feedback. I'll send everything necessary (gratis) but obviously you will have to facilitate the labor to install the ferrule.

Going to use any where from a 70 to 100 micron filter (etched SS) screen. Any recommendations for sizing from the community Please?

I was going to build 3 to 5 of these. Obviously Bushman has first right of refusal. Looking for folks that will not sit on this. Would like to see feedback quickly.

The drawing shows a 2.5" connection at the kettle. The screen does not have to be in place for the unit to work. So if the screen does not prevent burning then your kettle will otherwise remain 100% fully usable.

Any volunteers? Please pm me to volunteer but by all means please contribute to the thread if you are an AG guy.
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Element Housing with Screen01262016.jpg
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by FreeMountainHermit » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:05 am

Just my dumb 2 cents but it seems that 2 inch is more common here for the folks using elements. Are you too deep into the design to change ???
Last edited by FreeMountainHermit on Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by LWTCS » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:55 am

Agreed,
2" is common. It is also my standard size for the element housing that I offer.

If I go with the 2" for this project though, I am a afraid that the filter screen will be so close to the fold back style element that it will burn solids on to the screen... if you see my meaning?
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by Bushman » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:56 am

Here is a link to the original design.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... n#p7330278
I believe that you need some type of rib bracing for the screen but my original 3D design goes a bit overboard. I also have changed the reduction of the screen at the base as it has to fit over the element and connect to the ferrule. Also further in the post I show a threaded ferrule (this could be either external or internal threads depending on the screen design). FMH I also measured the diameter of my element and it is just over 1" so a 2" ferrule would work fine. The key and what has slowed me down was I made my element more permanent by welding a 1" half coupling. This needs to be changed so that the element is easily removed as it goes over 1/2 the diameter of the keg thus the screen would be hard to fit on it and removed easily. StillDragons current kit has the element attached to a ferrule cap that is threaded to fit the element. This is very cleaver and I think with this design and the ferrule threaded to accommodate the screen is a great idea.

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by Bushman » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:57 am

Larry I think you are right it you have one of the wave style elements.

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by bearriver » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:02 pm

LWTCS wrote: If I go with the 2" for this project though, I am a afraid that the filter screen will be so close to the fold back style element that it will burn solids on to the screen... if you see my meaning?
I think the switch to 2-1/2" is warranted, considering your concern is the very thing this product seeks to eliminate. :thumbup:

Edit: I think LWTCS is referring to the 4500 fold back and not the 5500 watt wavy style. I would guesstimate the wavy style would need a 3" or better.

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by FreeMountainHermit » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:09 pm

BR, I have a 5500w fold back element.
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by bearriver » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:30 pm

FreeMountainHermit wrote:BR, I have a 5500w fold back element.
Edit: I misread your post. I didn't know they made LWD 5500 watt elements. Thanks!

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by LWTCS » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:51 pm

Think 70 microns is too big for the filter holes?
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by FreeMountainHermit » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:55 pm

WOW !!!

And I misread yours. Mine is straight but not LWD


Going to crawl back into my corner now.

Sorry Larry.
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by LWTCS » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:06 pm

FreeMountainHermit wrote:WOW !!!

And I misread yours. Mine is straight but not LWD


Going to crawl back into my corner now.

Sorry Larry.
Ohhh hush. No worries :lol:
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by bearriver » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:15 pm

LWTCS wrote:Think 70 microns is too big for the filter holes?
That sounds like a perfectly reasonable place to start.

The "Grain Guard" product sold online looks much bigger than that (never seen so much as a review, however :roll: )

Also, hop blocker baskets in brewing kettles are often advertised at around 300 microns. [quote="Stainless Hop Filter 4" x 10" - 300 micron mesh @ homebrewing.org"]Recirculate your wort through this filter before hooking up the plate chiller and collect trub, irish moss clumps or spices you may have added[/quote]

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by Snackson » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:11 pm

I am starting up AG this week as I'm not getting the flavor I want out of other stuff. I have two different boilers, one with 2" tri clover and one with 1.5" tri clover. I used to use ripple but switched to all stainless fold back. I think a 2.5" would be warranted here as well for it to be inserted easily and allow space around the heating element.

Just a thought, what about using a higher mounting in the kettle as well. Might that work a little better for the 2", i.e. Less grain/weight on it. I have a 2" mounted for a sight glass midway up that I could swap out for a higher element.

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by LWTCS » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:18 am

Snackson wrote:I am starting up AG this week as I'm not getting the flavor I want out of other stuff. I have two different boilers, one with 2" tri clover and one with 1.5" tri clover. I used to use ripple but switched to all stainless fold back. I think a 2.5" would be warranted here as well for it to be inserted easily and allow space around the heating element.

Just a thought, what about using a higher mounting in the kettle as well. Might that work a little better for the 2", i.e. Less grain/weight on it. I have a 2" mounted for a sight glass midway up that I could swap out for a higher element.
With out agitation I think you'll see a bit too much heat stratofication. Convection will be greatly reduced I would think?

Not to mention that you would loose the flexibility to run smaller kettle charges no?
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by Bushman » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:34 am

Good reasons, another idea I had was a false bottom similar to what they use in steam distillation of essential oils with a smaller screen than what is used for essential oil. I discontinued that plan as if it would work it would not work on kegs as the false bottom would need to be the same ID as the boiler thus the opening at the top would also have to be the same size.

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by yakattack » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:00 am

For people with a keg that's cut open it would be possible to make it Hindged so it folds in 4. This would allow it to fit into a much smaller opening. But you don't really see that kind of setup for a keg anymore. Triclamps have really changed the hobby for the better

Edit. Referring to Bushman's idea of a false screen bottom.
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by jedneck » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:10 am

I am a steam injection guy but I would be interested in trying it as a steam diffuser. Same setup just steam injected through it instead of an element. But I would try an element in it for testing. But I have reservations about using my standard flour with an element. I can see it plugging up and blowing the element.
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by Snackson » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:28 am

LWTCS wrote:
Snackson wrote:I am starting up AG this week as I'm not getting the flavor I want out of other stuff. I have two different boilers, one with 2" tri clover and one with 1.5" tri clover. I used to use ripple but switched to all stainless fold back. I think a 2.5" would be warranted here as well for it to be inserted easily and allow space around the heating element.

Just a thought, what about using a higher mounting in the kettle as well. Might that work a little better for the 2", i.e. Less grain/weight on it. I have a 2" mounted for a sight glass midway up that I could swap out for a higher element.
With out agitation I think you'll see a bit too much heat stratofication. Convection will be greatly reduced I would think?

Not to mention that you would loose the flexibility to run smaller kettle charges no?
Yeah, but with the flexibility like I have built into mine it would be perfect for it. Who would go through all the effort of AG and distill on the grain for such a small yield? I get you would want a lower mount for spirit runs and the like but if I were going to distil on the grain I would like a little higher mount.
I didn't think about heat stratification though. Maybe just mounting a few inches above normal so there isn't too much on top of the element, maybe a 1/3 of the charge of grains?

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by shadylane » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:30 am

The drawing shows the heating element screwing into a 1" NPT hole.
Heating elements have 1" NPS threads.

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by LWTCS » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:35 am

shadylane wrote:The drawing shows the heating element screwing into a 1" NPT hole.
Heating elements have 1" NPS threads.
Ah shoot....thanks Shady.

Actually, I may need to confirm if that NPT is for the screen?
Last edited by LWTCS on Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by Bushman » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:43 am

shadylane wrote:The drawing shows the heating element screwing into a 1" NPT hole.
Heating elements have 1" NPS threads.
Maybe I am looking at it backward but for me I would have the 1" opening for the heat threads on the outside of the barrel so it removes easily otherwise the screen would be hard to mount. LWTCS am I reading the drawing backward?

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by masonsjax » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:23 am

Many people use a 1" NPT nut on their elements. The straight threads will screw into the tapered threads just fine but possibly before the o-ring is fully seated so Teflon tape is recommended.

Also there's a big thread over at the beer forum about developing a kettle hop screen where I recall early iterations had problems with the mesh being too tight causing problems with wort flow so they ended up going with a much looser mesh with bigger holes. Maybe worth looking for that thread before building too many of these.

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by Bushman » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:58 am

Masonsjax do you have any link as I think the mesh size is crucial

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by masonsjax » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:26 am

Bushman wrote:Masonsjax do you have any link as I think the mesh size is crucial
Yes, here's the mega-thread I'm talking about:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=352293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I don't remember all the details, but there were a few iterations before they settled on the right design. HTH

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by Soggy Bottom Boy » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:20 am

Maybe I am not envisioning the project correctly, but if the element is supposed to filter the still charge of particulates that come in contact with the element, and the element is completely enclosed and sealed within the filter, I don't see how it will work very well.

Just a backyard engineer here, but, ....my first gut instinct here is that the element will be boiling the liquid that is inside the filter, intense bubbling will be forced out of the screen not allowing much mash to circulate back into the inside of the filter and causing sort of a dry fire condition of the element. Perhaps not a bad enough condition to burn out the element, but may make for kind of a heat cycling condition within the filter/element area, where there is intense boiling forcing liquid out of the filter, a drop in pressure due to there being not much liquid left inside the filter to heat/boil, an influx of liquid back into the filter, and then repeating the entire cycle over and over again.

Dunno, just an opinion of mine that may, or may not, have any merit in real world application.

It will be interesting to read about the results of this project in the near future, and good luck with the trials and experimenting.

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by Bushman » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:26 am

Not sure that's the case but something that probably needs a bit more research. When I first invisioned the idea I thought the water would circulate through the filter but not allow the grain to settle on the element scorching it.

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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by LWTCS » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:52 am

That's why we are building a hand full of prototypes..........
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by Soggy Bottom Boy » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:16 am

I guess it all boils down to (pun intended) finding the optimum mesh size. Fine enough to keep unwanted particles off of the element, yet coarse enough to allow sufficient influx and circulation of liquid around the element.

I would think that there would be a happy medium somewhere, but then, variability of different mash compositions could play a role in the effectiveness of the chosen mesh size as well.

LWTCS:
Actually, I would think that 70 microns (.0028") would be much too fine of a mesh, but without actually trying it out, it is all just speculation on my part. Even if it doesn't work out as expected, it will be a step closer to finding out what might work well. Go for it!
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by FreeMountainHermit » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:18 am

Dumb question here, but I'm leading up to an idea that's been on my mind regarding a shield of sorts.

Does anyone know the element surface temp when it's submerged and running full blast ???
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Re: Bushman's Element Adapter/Screen Project

Post by LWTCS » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:39 am

Hi All,
The prototypes are done and they look beautiful.

However the filter screen in my opinion is not small enough. I'm a little annoyed but we'll get it right. In the mean time, I'm sure a finer screen can be installed over top of the perforated cartridge.

I'll send out the samples and let you fellers evaluate.

The element installs just like it would on our typical Element Guard Kit. Everything is included.
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Filter screen prototype.jpg
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