So, the answer was copper

Distillation methods and improvements.

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Bagasso
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Re: So, the answer was copper

Post by Bagasso »

thecroweater wrote:I kind of feel the EC issue has been done to death but if we are going to reanimate this zombie horse for one more whipping let's simplify it.
While you are correct, this is not a "where do you have copper on your still?" thread.

The thread is about soaking copper in wash/distillate and the post that made me bring it up again was specifically talking about soaking copper in distillate and then drinking it.
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thecroweater
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Re: So, the answer was copper

Post by thecroweater »

Yezzar boss, I was just making the point before someone jumps in saying copper will catalyse a reaction to produce EC in the finished spirit which may or may not be somewhat possible dependant on how the spirit was produced :thumbup:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
Bagasso
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Re: So, the answer was copper

Post by Bagasso »

thecroweater wrote:Yezzar boss, I was just making the point before someone jumps in saying copper will catalyse a reaction to produce EC in the finished spirit which may or may not be somewhat possible dependant on how the spirit was produced :thumbup:
I hear you and I know that some aspects of the craft are overly hyped, like EC and the whole methanol thing making you go blind.

The reason for me linking the study about another run bringing EC down by 97% wasn't to fear monger but to highlight the fact that, even though EC has a really high boiling point, some of it is still coming over. How bad is that 3%? Probably nothing to worry about but I think it merits a foot note that boiling points are not the be all end all of separation by distillation.

The real issue that we were tossing back and forth, based on the second article iwine posted, was the fact, that under certain conditions, the benefits that copper treatment can have on a wash/wine/distillate might be undone with time or maybe with another run. At least that is what I seemed to be seeing.

The EC thing folds into that because we are talking about copper treatment and the fix for EC is another run, and if that nullifies the benefits of treating with copper, "dependent on how the spirit was produced", drinking without a follow-up run "may or may not be " fine but if it reverses the copper treatment then treating with copper can be a waste of time.

I have to say though that the difference is so noticeable that, at least in my opinion, it deserves a little more research.
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NZChris
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Re: So, the answer was copper

Post by NZChris »

NZChris wrote:I took the copper out of the wash this morning and it looked exactly the same as it did when it went in. No patina gained or lost. The wash was already so good the experiment was never going to make a difference I could pick.
That's when I stopped experimenting with this idea. If someone has success rescuing a nasty wash I might get interested again, but my current thinking is that a nice wash from a successful ferment isn't going to benefit from having copper in the fermenter.
Bagasso
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Re: So, the answer was copper

Post by Bagasso »

NZChris wrote:but my current thinking is that a nice wash from a successful ferment isn't going to benefit from having copper in the fermenter.
That must have been a pretty neutral wash for it not to even clean up the copper. I mean even if a wash is clean, sulfur wise, it should be acidic enough to clean the patina. That is part of the reason for a vinegar/water or sacrificial run.

You are also correct about nice washes from successful ferments. My particular problem is that I have successful ferments, worked off in 3-5 days, no infections, with no nasty smells, maybe a hint of something meaty or savory and when it is run it is musty from after the first 100 ml til the end. Drop the copper into it and the wash is improved. Run it and I get a little further into the run before the must starts coming over.

Now, I have been here for 10 years and I have tried every bit of advice offered and there is always that musty odor. I can fully understand why someone who has not encountered this problem might see this as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I'd like to be part of that bunch but fate has put me in this other group.
alex_khoroshko
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Re: So, the answer was copper

Post by alex_khoroshko »

Hello everyone!
I can not say that I'm very experienced distiller, but we have quite a disstiller community here in Russia (distilling is legal for anyone if it's non-profit) and I've done lots of research on local forums.
Most of locals use stainless steel distillers. Copper is believed efficient, so the solution is to place copper net into column. I use two nets one above each other, for total height of about 20cm (8 inches).
Here is how nets look like after about 10 liters of 40% spirit were distilled though the column. Nets were bright red (shiny copperish color) when they were new and both were inserted into column simultaneously.
Pb3jQXEFYWI.jpg
Same nets after boiling in citric acid for about an hour:
gceMNRS1BMI.jpg
How I see this - some chemicals go up though net and react with copper. Concentration of the chemicals decreases as steam goes up and so top of the net stays almost untouched. With time copper net accumulates something not dissolvable in citric acid, so it turns more and more black untill at some point you have to use more radical treatment or just replace it.
Here's how it looks in the column. It's not clear from picture, but the fit is quite tight.
jQfdvZaxQN0.jpg
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