Acidic tails

Distillation methods and improvements.

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trbig67
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Acidic tails

Post by trbig67 »

I hve an 8 gal pot still with the thermometer in the liquid on the pot. My normal operations is:
1, Run wash to 210 degrees F. Ends up at @ 100pr.
2, When I get enough for a pot full, I run the 100pr and collect until @190 degrees F., then collect tails until @200 in a seperate container.
3, All the hearts I gathered get dripped through a 6' activated charcoal filter for a few days.
4, Run those hearts a 3rd time for my final product, discarding heads at this point. (Actually, they go into a gnat trap. Attracts them like nothing else!) I collect in qt. jars and sample until I detect some tails, then collect the rest up to @190 F. to add to my tails.
5, Off to work on some charred white oak for some months until it passes my taste test. I have a bunch of antique gallon mason jars. Measured amount of wood chips, (Depends to taste) diluted with distilled water to 145pr, and seal up. Temperature changes in a dark old shed force the ethyl in and out of the wood nicely and I don't lose any to the angels. Even bourbon snobs love it.


Now to the point. I've read from people, after running tails a few times, it will actually at some point burn their lips a bit when tasting. I have experienced this as well. After checking, what I have found is that each distillation process comes off a bit more acidic than when it went in. As I keep collecting the tails from subsequent runs, then would run those, again saving up to 190 F, I noticed the burn after several runs. I had some ph test strips for my pool and checked it and it's so acidic, it is off the charts. So my question is... what is a proper PH for a final product? Assuming you add baking soda to raise the PH back up? 7.2 like water?
Last edited by trbig67 on Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by Saltbush Bill »

trbig67 Sorry to sound blunt but my gut feeling is that to date you've been given some bad advise from other sources and you have a lot to learn yet.
trbig67 wrote:I hve an 8 gal pot still with the thermometer in the liquid on the pot.
Thermometer wont help you make good booze.
trbig67 wrote:1, Run wash to 210 degrees F. Ends up at @ 100pr.
Forget about temp and focus on things like proof ,smell and taste. I presume you mean by "Ends up at @ 100pr." Proof ? am I right ? If so why are you only stripping down to 100 or 50% abv ?
trbig67 wrote:2, When I get enough for a pot full, I run the 100pr and collect until 190 degrees F., then collect tails until 200 in a seperate container.
Again forget temps ...your wasting your time worrying about them, how do you know that hearts finish at 190f and that tails start then ? You should also not be running low wines at 100proof - 50%abv for safety reasons.
trbig67 wrote:3, All the hearts I gathered get dripped through a 6' activated charcoal filter for a few days.
If you play this game the right way, and take note of what people here tell you , you will never need to carbon filter again, You need to make good cuts , NOT based on temperature to achieve that. The tools you need are your nose and tongue, nothing more. I presume you own one of each ?
trbig67 wrote:4, Run those hearts a 3rd time for my final product, discarding heads at this point. (Actually, they go into a gnat trap. Attracts them like nothing else!) I collect in qt. jars and sample until I detect some tails, then collect the rest up to 190 F. to add to my tails.
Why do you wait till the 3rd run to get rid of the heads ? why wouldn't you do that on the first or second run ? or maybe even both ?
trbig67 wrote:it will actually at some point burn their lips a bit when tasting. I have experienced this as well.
Bad cuts
trbig67 wrote:I had some ph test strips for my pool and checked it and it's so acidic, it is off the charts. So my question is... what is a proper PH for a final product? Assuming you add baking soda to raise the PH back up? 7.2 like water?
Ive been around the different forums for a fair while , Ive never ever heard of anyone suggesting that you need to adjust the PH of finished spirits, maybe I've missed something.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by Yummyrum »

I have to concur with everything Saltbush has said . But you got me interested .

Still happened to have a jar of fores and early heads , some pretty clean hearts and some nasty compressed tails from a Run I did recently in a reflux still so that should show if the fractions are acidic or not .

And I was surprised to say the least ...never checked it before but you are right , the tails are acidic . ...but so are the Fores and early heads ...the Neutral was ...well nuetral in more ways than one pH 7 , that also surprised me ...but there you go ...didn't get my colour chart out but I'm guesstimating Fores at around pH5 Neutral at pH7 and Tails at pH4
From Left to right , Fores , hearts and tails ...I wish I had had a good jar of heads to try .
pH of spirits.jpg
Just to add the jars of Fores and Tails jars have been exposed to the atmosphere for around a week where as the neutral has been sealed in a Demi . I know at work that our Distilled water very quickly becomes pH4-ish as it dissolves CO2 from the air ....just a thought ...and open to discussion .


BTW ..I think your burn is from Heads not Tails .
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by trbig67 »

Saltbush Bill wrote:trbig67 Sorry to sound blunt but my gut feeling is that to date you've been given some bad advise from other sources and you have a lot to learn yet.
I'd hope we all have a lot to learn. There is a lot I want to address, so I hope I address both of your and Yummyrum's replies.
Thermometer wont help you make good booze.
Really? It helps me substantially. It gives me a guideline of what's going on and when. Not exactly, but I've been doing this a lot of years. I have had in depth discusssions with a lot of distillery owners across this country and several other countries I've visited. So please at least give what I'm saying more than a passing glance and brush off as "Must be a noob". Discussion is how we learn, hopefully from each other?
Forget about temp and focus on things like proof ,smell and taste. I presume you mean by "Ends up at @ 100pr." Proof ? am I right ? If so why are you only stripping down to 100 or 50% abv ?
I do stripper runs and catch everything down to @ 20 proof, which ends up being at 210 degrees by my worthless thermometer. What I end up with after getting all I care to get out of the mash, I end up with a 100 proof average on my stripper runs.
trbig67 wrote:
2, When I get enough for a pot full, I run the 100pr and collect until 190 degrees F., then collect tails until 200 in a seperate container.

Again forget temps ...your wasting your time worrying about them, how do you know that hearts finish at 190f and that tails start then ?
According to my taste buds, my nose, and my worthless thermometer, the cutoff for what makes it into my "Keep" jug on the 2nd run all seem to happen at just about the same time, every time. (According to said worthless thermometer) A little bit sooner, a little bit less depending on barometer readings, but as a general rule, 190 has me looking/smelling/tasting at things very closely.
You should also not be running low wines at 100proof - 50%abv for safety reasons.
Ah, and here, I believe, is where the discussion could get less than friendly. Alcohol fumes burn. Alcohol fumes will burn from low alcohol mash when heated, (Had it happen on a leak from a previous design pot) and they will burn from 100+ proof. It's the fumes that burn, not the liquid. Heat up 80 proof... or even 50 proof in a pan on your stove and light it. Burns. Stick the highest proof stuff you have in the freezer and get good and cold, then try to light that. Doesn't work without fumes. So, why do you feel safer about cooking 80 proof than 100+ proof? Pots don't "Explode" from a higher proof of vapor, they explode from pressure build from something clogged, then if it explodes, the fumes burn. Less than 100, more than 100, doesn't really matter at that point. I have a pressure relief valve on my pot just for this reason. OK... flame away!
If you play this game the right way, and take note of what people here tell you , you will never need to carbon filter again, You need to make good cuts , NOT based on temperature to achieve that. The tools you need are your nose and tongue, nothing more. I presume you own one of each ?
Unless you skipped over the part where I collect in quart jars, I did state that I make my cuts according to taste, but yes, do include my nose as well. So here's my reasons. I'm not doubting for a minute you produce a quality product that you enjoy. Jack Daniels. They apparently make a good product since it's the best selling whiskey in the world. Debatable by some, sure, but a pretty good product. Ever had Gentelman Jack? Much nicer, much smoother. Same aging, same everything as regular black label. Only difference is charcoal filtering. The difference between top of the line vodka and rot-gut? Charcoal filtering. I learned this from one of my many visits to Key West. Every time I go, I stop in and discuss things with the owner/operator. (Key West First Legal Rum Distillery) Chef Paul, great guy will chat with anyone curious enough to ask questions. After several years, on one of my visits, I saw him running the rum through a big stainless tube into a collector. In that tube he had activated charcoal. He gave me a before and after taste, and the difference is quite noticeable for the better, even though he already had a good product. So, this is what led me to create my own charcoal filter, and it makes something good even better.

Why do you wait till the 3rd run to get rid of the heads ? why wouldn't you do that on the first or second run ? or maybe even both ?
My question to you is why not get it all at once? My main reason for getting it at the end is for use as I stated, in a gnat trap and full strength works/attracts better, but also because I have a couple of alcohol stoves I use these foreshots/heads in and I need them as close to 100% as I can get. Plus, full strength works much better as a cleaner, stain remover, adhesive remover, sharpie marker remover, etc... So it's just best/easiest for me to get it in the final run. Not everone's cup of tea. I get it.
it will actually at some point burn their lips a bit when tasting. I have experienced this as well.
Bad cuts.
Maybe I just didn't explain well. I've read and heard of this happeneing to others who routinely run their tails. Not just on this site, but I have read it here as well. I'm making my cuts well and am very conservative for what I keep. If you measure the PH of what you put in the pot vs what comes out, what comes out is more acidic than what you started with. Many people re-run the tails when they get enough to do so. By experience, and by nose and taste, there's a cut-off point during the tails that I don't care to gather any more of. Just so happens, by some coincidence, that generally happens right around the time my worthless thermometer gets to that 190 degree mark every time.

Now, those stored tails that I gather are already in an acidic state. When I get enough to do a tails run, they get even more acidic after running. I treat these like a final run as well, and everything past what I keep for drink and up to that 190-ish temp ends up in a tails jar to await a time when enough tails get collected to run once again. Along the way, at some point I haven't figured out, they become acidic enough to actually burn your tongue a little. I hate wasting things, so I was wondering if adding something like baking soda and raising the PH back up would help. I guesss I could have just tried it myself to find out instead of asking, just thought someone else might know or had the experience.

So that led me to wonder what the actual PH would/should be as a general rule. I've never thought of posing this question to a distiller, who I'm sure keep track of these things. I do remember one distiller telling me that a slightly acidic mash @ 6.8 is desireable but never thought to ask what that ended with. Everybody's water is different. We have good water, but it is very alkaline to begin with, so the PH in my final product is not going to be the same as yours necessarilly, especially with different setups, IE thumper kegs, age of copper, etc... I've taken my product to several distillers and asked for critique/suggestions, and so far, nobody has had any suggestions and can't believe I've made this at home in a simple pot still. Good for the ego, but not very productive for improvement, which is something I think we can all strive for. I am after quality, not quantity.

I hope this clears things up a bit and maybe even opens a CALM discussion of things? Cheers.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by Kegg_jam »

Wow. A lot to take in.

Stands to reason though. A lot of my ferments end up on the low ph side when done. So why wouldn’t the tails be low in ph?

On a side note, a high ph could burn too right?
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by fizzix »

trbig67, you've had bad results.
Received good advice.
And turned it down.
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Re: Acidic tails

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fizzix wrote:trbig67, you've had bad results.
Received good advice.
And turned it down.
Pray tell. What bad results have I had that aren't common to everyone who runs tails and what advice have I turned down? The only thing I see that I turned down or really questioned was the distilling at 100 proof thing. Your reply, and wifm's slinging insults, don't help the discussion at all, but I certaily hope it made you feel better.

@Kegg_jam, agreed. Alkaline will burn as well as acid, but a low PH is what I consistently find. One thing I have been doing some, is after the stripping run, I'll dump some of the tails into that, maybe at a 20% ratio. I may continue just doing that. Thanks for the response.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by steelmb »

Here we go again, you guys are like a broken record, The "old stuck in their ways guys" jumping on the new guy (who is not a newbie, just new to this site) and running down his methods without having tried them or even having tasted his product. People here are so stuck in their ways that they stifle innovative thinking. They believe that they are such great craftsmen that their way is the only way and try to chase off any new innovative thinkers. WELL I CALL BULLSHIT! If this is going to continue, I think Uncle Jesse should probably change the name of the site to something like, The Old Boys Distillers Club", with the slogan of "Innovative Thinkers Need Not Apply". Give it a rest already!
I believe MCH may have said it best. "It's your hooch, you get to choose."
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by fizzix »

Running by temperature is pretty much proven to be a bad way to cut.
I don't see how trying to impart that is being stuck in old ways
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by durty_dunderpants »

the alternative steelmb is that the new guys can stop to learn something from those old guys. works both ways, both are important. but i don't think that's the issue here to deserve such a overreaction as it's a situation (well documented) that most people avoid by making conservative cuts. which was really the advice given, even if the original question was more "why".

anyhows i'm new in the door and i'm not lookin for trouble. i've often wondered about the pH myself, but outta curiosity rather than concern for a problem. i got a pH meter, is it a bad idea for the probe to stick it in fresh high abv distillate?
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by Big Stogie »

I started out running my pot on propane and I used to constantly check the thermometer, my results were not great, lots of smearing. It was when I converted to electric and was able to really slow down and not run it as hard when I figured out that the thermometer does not mean too much. it does give me a couple clues but i don't depend on it. it was then that i could really smell the difference and started collecting smaller sample jars numbering them so i could get a better handle on what was going on. Trbig67 your results sound a little like my original ones, i have no idea of how fast you are trying to get there but maybe just slow it down and don't depend on the thermometer to see how that works for you. Of course after I made something really decent I thought I was a genius that had made some amazing discovery but in the end after reading more I just started doing what other successful people had done before me. I'm all about innovation and change, I want to try different methods and find something new but I had to make it work first so I had a reference point. Good luck in your journey. If we can help we will try. :eugeek:
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Re: Acidic tails

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Thank you for the sane replies, all, especially steelmb. I was beginning to think that this was a political forum where people seem to be stuck on, "If you don't agree with me, you're a moron!"

Everybody seems stuck on my temp observations and fail to actually see they are simply a reference point for me. I don't make my cuts according to temps, I make them to taste. I make my mash with the exact same recipe, using the exact same water put in at the exact same temp, fermented in a temp controlled room at the exact same temp, run through the same equipment at the same temps, and it seems to give me repeatable results. When my pot gets to the temps listed, I don't just use that for cuts, I use my taste and smell, but with repeatable results because I do everything the same every time, and it ends up being within a degree or two of what I listed every time. When I start getting to 187-188 on the temp gauge, I know I'm getting close and start paying more attention to the taste/smell, I don't just blindly say, "Oop! Hit 190! time to turn it off!" The only thing I trust the temp gauge solely for is the stripping run. 210 degrees, I shut it off and don't bother testing the output any more at that point. I would love to have a parrot that constantly showed me the alc. %, but just haven't sprung for that yet.

I have to ask, why don't you all know pretty much when the cuts should be made? Are they at a different point and time for you every time? If so, what's causing the variations? How do you get repeatable results if things happen at different times every time for you? Are you operating out in the woods with a wood fire that varies all the time, fermented outdoors with temp swings at different times of year and day/night? Why is it NOT nearly the same every time for you?

Big Stogie, I am using natural gas. I started by using electric, but maybe just the cheap stove I used, the element kicking on and off, it just wouldn't produce a steady flow for me. On the burner knob which goes to 10, I use it at a 7 for my stripper runs and turn it down to 5 for subsequent runs. I also collect in numbered jars and my final run is at a rate right at a gallon per hr.
Last edited by trbig67 on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by HDNB »

i gotta ask, what are trying to make in the first place? thw mash/wash is going to have some bearing on what the result is.
sounds like vodka with triple distillation and charcoal filtering?
but you are oak aging it?

I'd be lying if i said i haven't thought of doing the same thing...making an azeo wheat bill and oak aging for a light blender for whiskey.

I have found four things that cause mouth burn.
1. sugar bite. all my rums have been awful until 24 months on oak. 36 months is the magic on rum for me.
2. flux. that only happened on my first still, using paste flux. never again.
3. smearing...caused by two things, a bubble cap plate and/or not running smoothly (changes in heat during run)
4.heads and tails (same as #3, just at one end of run or the other.)

i too am thinking of charcoal filtering some rum on my next go with it, to accelerate the maturation process. I'm thinking of a reactor like 10' of height with toasted oak on top, giving way to charred oak, giving way to oak charcoal and finally activated charcoal at the bottom...possibly introducing o3 and co2 somewhere around the 3/4 mark (before spirit works through activated charcoal. my intitial thoughts are to recirc it as long as it takes to make a smothh white rum and then barrel age that spirit for some dark.

while i like my whiskey...it seems that the ferment is the biggest variable, a GIGO situation...the rum has been hard for me to smooth with out the addition of copious amounts of time. The molasses flavour is so robust, i'm guessing that it will still be there after significant filtering. we'll see.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by raketemensch »

I’m glad you posted that, HDNB. I’ve only got 2 rum runs under my belt, and the fresh white is painful. That was odd, because I felt like I made good, if maybe even overly conservative, cuts.

It’s harsher than fresh, white UJ even, so maybe molasses adds to the sugar burn.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by trbig67 »

HDNB wrote:i gotta ask, what are trying to make in the first place?
Whiskey. 50/50 on cracked corn/rye and @ 5% barley malt to get some of the sugars from the starches. I used to heat the mash, hold it at a certain temp for so long, then down to another temp and hold it to get the amylase A and B to do their thing, but have found out that if you just put the malt in at regular temps, by the time the mash is done, most of the starches are gone, according to my tests with iodine.

I have tried my hand at rum. I started using 100% raw sugar (Turbinado) and the mollases flavor was way overpowering. I ended up using a combination of 1/3 raw sugar to 2/3 white cane sugar and had OK results, but still didn't taste like anything commercial.

On your filter idea, I would suggest just trying straight activted charcoal first. You may get the results you want a lot easier/cheaper. I looked around a long time trying to find a big diameter copper or SS pipe to make the filter out of. I found a place I could get a 4" stainless pipe for a mere $40 a foot. lol. What I ended up using, was I had a buddy with a bunch of rough cut aged 1x6 oak boards that he'd got from taking a few big trees on his property to a sawmill. I pressure washed the sides that would be to the inside, then using 4 boards, I made a square "tube" 6' long, and screwed together with stainless steel screws and 100% silicone at the joints. I found a cheap stainless steel bowl, drilled a bunch of small holes in the bottom, and hammered/shaped it around the bottom of the tube and screwed it into place, again using stainless screws. I found an old military stainless water container from the 1940's (Looked up the part numbers) that holds 4 1/2 gallons and has a brass spigot. I fill this up, and with a stand I built at the top, and the tube secured to the edge of a work bench, I just turn it to drip and walk away. It takes a couple days at least to filter through.

Now, this method doesn't produce a final product for me. No matter how much I wash the charcoal, it still ends up with a tint and a very slight charcoal/carbon taste, so this is why I run it a 3rd time.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by steelmb »

trbig67 wrote:.... I was beginning to think that this was a political forum where people seem to be stuck on, "If you don't agree with me, you're a moron!" ...
Over time I have, in my opinion, seen way too much of that here. It is the reason I post very, very, little. Signed up in 2013 and nobody was interested in what I was doing so I did not even come back and look for 2 1/2 yrs and then got beat up because I proposed something different. People participating in a forum need to approach it with an open mind and not be so rigid in their thinking. If someone else has different ideas, processes and taste, people need to be respectful of that. How else are we going to move this hobby forward? Remember each person is making product for themselves and maybe family or friends, they are not making it for you and your tastes. A lot of the ideas or processes brought up might not be keepers for you but they might be for someone else. It may take a fair amount of work to wade through a lot of ideas you don't like, to find the one gem that you really like. If you are not willing to do so, then what are you doing here?
I believe MCH may have said it best. "It's your hooch, you get to choose."
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by raketemensch »

Well, we had a few extra-crotchety people that were shown the door over the past couple of years. I’ve never really ended up in an argument here that I recall, so it’s very possible to avoid that stuff and still learn a great deal, develop some friendships and contribute what you can without all the drama.

Like anything else on the internet (or in the real world), you just have to learn to spot the bait and leave it alone.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by Tater »

Cleaned up this topic .Removed 1 rude post .Rest appeared to try to be helpful. Should not been posted in newb section if not wanting to be answered as talking to a newb.There is never a reason to be rude.Or to be to thinned skinned by answers.Play nice .Maybe have better luck in this forum.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by StillerBoy »

tribig.. you have raised a couple issues that many will not touch..

Some years back, I read a distillation report on the important of the Ph at distillation time of brandy wine.. my recollection is that a ph of 4.5 was where the least esters were influencing the finish product..

I have since paid close attention to my wash/mash ph, and have since maintain the fermentation process for a ph of 4.5 - 5, and have notice that I have reduced heads produced over a product which has not been ph managed..

So there is something there to explore, if only on small level..

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Re: Acidic tails

Post by zapata »

Trbig67, I think you might need to forgive A BIT of the response that you got as being typical responses that will typically apply when someone says certain things. Some of it does seem like rehashing the party line though. Maybe that can also be excused by the fact that some people made shit booze before they learned the party line here, so they enthusiastically support it. Not because its the only way, but it is THE way that finally got them good booze. The best proof though is that you are not a beginner, and have by all accounts a high quality product. Maybe that's throwing people off. Usually people who even mention running by temperature are neither experienced or making good product, and are relying on the temp instead of using it as a guide as you are.

So recognising that you are not an idiot, I am surprised that your stripping run is ending at such a high proof. My stripping runs are often under 30% for whisk(e)y. I have run into something similar here in the past. We have a member who gets crazy high abv from his pot still. Presumably from passive reflux, but it caused a good bit of confusion because his results are far from the norm for simple pot stills. Anyway, I wonder if this applies to your pot still as well? MOST people getting low wines at 50% are simply shutting down well before they need to, and in my opinion well before they should (granted I know better than to tell a man how to run his own still if he's not asking).
Regarding safety, economy, and desired results of diluting the still charge, this is one of the best explanations I've ever read. I have to link through the way back machine because the original library was removed long ago. It is "Diluting the Still Charge" by Harry Jackson
https://web.archive.org/web/20080316223 ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
It seems to me there is something to the safety of lower proof still charges, but not any kind of absolute limit.

Regarding your initial question about acidity of tails, I am aware of no standards or reason to shoot for any given ph of tails. I'm not sure why it matters at all, it may burn when you taste it, but aside from tasting for making cuts, why does that matter? Tails taste gross regardless of ph. If it's a matter of the effect their ph has on a wash when recycling, or even if added to a spirit run then a LOT can be said, and there are specific reasons to target specific ph of a still charge. In that case I would adjust the ph of the mixture, not the tails specifically. But good evidence that you don't NEED to worry about it can be found with the Scotts. They recycle all feints ad infinitum, and rarely (never?) adjust the ph of their spirit still charges.
(And now I'm being interrupted in real life so will return and see exactly how you are recycling your tails to see if I have any insight into your specific use of tails)
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by wiifm »

I apologise for the Mona Lisa pic and will try to be constructive, but I have some questions first.

To summarise your OP, you collect tails from your second and third runs and when you have enough, you do an all tails run. And you keep the tails from that tails run and to your tails collection, but you never collect past 190F for tails in your second, third and tails runs?

Do you run the second and third runs more slowly than the first? Do you run your all tails slowly also? Are you comparing tails run to tails run and noticing that they are getting more acidic? Or are you comparing first, second, third and tails runs and noticing they are getting more acidic? Have you kept any records of this for us to see?

What is your goal in filtering your second run through activated charcoal? Do you filter after your tails runs? How do you reactivate your charcoal and how often?

Are you adding backset to your subsequent generations. If so, from what run? What pHs are you getting at beginning and end of your fermenatations?
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by Saltbush Bill »

trbig67 wrote:1, Run wash to 210 degrees F. Ends up at @ 100pr.
zapata wrote: I am surprised that your stripping run is ending at such a high proof.
In my opinion these figures just do not stack up how ever you look at it. The low wines from a wash stripped down to 210f - 98.8889 C is not going to end up with an overall ABV of 50% unless you are forcing some sort of refux throughout the entire process. Maybe the thermometer is inaccurate.
If anybody has a better suggestion Id be happy to hear it.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by HDNB »

raketemensch wrote:I’m glad you posted that, HDNB. I’ve only got 2 rum runs under my belt, and the fresh white is painful. That was odd, because I felt like I made good, if maybe even overly conservative, cuts.

It’s harsher than fresh, white UJ even, so maybe molasses adds to the sugar burn.
it must add harshness because mine was undrinkable too... until 2 yrs...and 3yr was like magic!
trbig67 wrote:
HDNB wrote:i gotta ask, what are trying to make in the first place?
Whiskey. 50/50 on cracked corn/rye and @ 5% barley malt
so... rye has a sweet note and a grassy note...and a black pepper (mouth burn) note. time and oak is your friend with a high rye bill.

on the rum filter i'm hoping to get some flavours from the wood in the white (but maintain the white) plus oak (thus charred oak and oak charcoal) is much easier and cheaper to obtain here than activated charcoal.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by trbig67 »

="zapata"]

We have a member who gets crazy high abv from his pot still. Presumably from passive reflux, but it caused a good bit of confusion because his results are far from the norm for simple pot stills. Anyway, I wonder if this applies to your pot still as well? MOST people getting low wines at 50% are simply shutting down well before they need to, and in my opinion well before they should (granted I know better than to tell a man how to run his own still if he's not asking).
I haven't checked innitial ABV in a long time, but as stated, I do collect down to the 20 proof (10%) or so level. By memory, it seems to start in the 130 proof range. I imagine I do get a bit of reflux in my still. From my pot, I have a column that rises from the top of the pot, up to the ceiling. then crossing @ 8 feet before dropping down towards the worm. I just went and checked the low wines from a recent run, and it is measuring 105 proof, but it is warm and will read high a bit. The highest reading I get is @ 172 proof in the 2nd and final run at 70 degrees.
Regarding safety, economy, and desired results of diluting the still charge, this is one of the best explanations I've ever read. I have to link through the way back machine because the original library was removed long ago. It is "Diluting the Still Charge" by Harry Jackson
https://web.archive.org/web/20080316223 ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I see what he's saying, somewhat, and I don't suggest everyone do as I do. I know the issue is mainly danger since I'm not worrying about the "How much it costs" aspect. Distilling concentrates alcohol. Whatever ABV you start at, that is the sole purpose. Do you ever watch a cooking show where they pour wine into a hot pan for cooking, tilt the pan and WOOSH! Fire. And that's at what... max 12% alcohol? There is going to be a fire danger at whatever proof you run. If your system isn't tight, it's going to leak and there's a danger since even if you start at below 100 proof, you've concentrated it to much higher. Something more to read on though, not just a regurgitated wives tale because "We've always done it that way!" Thank you.
I am aware of no standards or reason to shoot for any given ph of tails. I'm not sure why it matters at all, it may burn when you taste it, but aside from tasting for making cuts, why does that matter?
If I continually recycle the tails, do a tails only run, keep the tails from that run and store for when I get some from other runs, eventually, even the hearts that have a good smell/taste will leave a burning sensation (Not alcohol burn). It was just a simple questioning of things. I seem to be not having the problem by mixing the tails into the low wines. It was just a wonderment more than anything and if it was a common problem with a simple fix. All I have to go by is PH strips for my pool. For me, starting out, ph is 7.0-ish, and comes out lower than 6.4, which is my lowest reading with what I have.


Now, a good looking blonde is flashing me and wants me to come to bed. I will answer the others tomorrow. More important things to attend to! Cheers all.
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SaltyStaves
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by SaltyStaves »

trbig67 wrote: 1, Run wash to 210 degrees F. Ends up at @ 100pr.
2, When I get enough for a pot full, I run the 100pr....
How long is the period of time between these two steps and are you storing them in a clear container with exposure to light?

I had something similar with a series of UJSSM. I had a big gap where I couldn't get time to do a spirit run and the low wines sat around for 6 weeks in a clear glass carboy. I'll never repeat that mistake.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by zapata »

trbig67 wrote:Distilling concentrates alcohol. Whatever ABV you start at, that is the sole purpose.
More because it's an interesting curiosity than just to bicker, but that isnt always the case. Much more is going on than just concentrating alcohol. So much so that at least 1 scotch distillery (Mortlach) does 2 "dud" runs. They strip as normal then take low wines, add feints, and distill. Then add everything back to the still and do it again. Then take everything and add back to the still AGAIN before doing a spirit run and making normal cuts. Just cycling the same shit back through the still 2 extra times with no cuts at all, even the stillage from these dud runs is rerun

Anyway, as I suspected you have an unusual still, that's why you are getting proofs atypical of most others. What angle is your 8 foot lyne arm at? Ascending, descending or horizontal?

I think its Pikey who gets abnormally high abv from his pot, and I think his solution is to just do single runs. You on the other hand do triple runs AND carbon filter! Many ways to skin a cat (and almost not worth mentioning I'd probably never skin a cat the way either of you do).

As for saving up tails from a tails only run, I can't help much. I've done all feints runs, but did not want to save the feints from them. Also to my knowledge outside of modern home distillers there is no tradition of using feints that way. Does anybody know of one? The old timers are certainly not sacred, but if trouble is showing up when doing something the old timers didn't (and were capable of) I am more suspicious of it. There are traditions of continual feints recycling to the spirit still (scotts) or an intermediate still (Irish, some scotts) or to a column still (some rums). But from what I can tell the all feints, "queens own cask" stuff is an internet era invention. Maybe what you're running into is that simply that feints from feints simply ain't good to use again?

But if I had to guess, your burning hearts from feints of feints IS an alcohol burn. Not an ethanol burn, but tails alcohols. Probably amyl alcohols which do cause a burning sensation. I think you've just built them up until they bleed into your hearts. I will note 1 more thing. In PROFESSIONAL (not home distillers) whisky literature I have read it stressed to not run too high a proof in the spirit still or the feints will come over throughout the run. I do not have a reference off hand for this, but it has been persistent amongst the Scotts. I have read several amateur theories on it ranging from phase separation to the molal ratios of components and the effective buffer that a large water percentage can play between hearts and tails. But it is a fact that the Scotts absolutely do not run high abvs in their pot stills and they say it is to prevent excess tails throughout the run. In the industry it is called a "blank run". It may well be why they can recycle their feints forever but you can not.

I think basically you hit the perfect storm of both concentrating tails via nontraditional recycling and a blank run from high proof charge.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by zapata »

Jeez! I just remembered! Trbig, got any of these feints laying around? Try a hydro separation on them. Dilute a sample to below 27% in a tall glass vessel and let em sit for a few hours, maybe overnight. Do you have visible layers? Oil slick on top, slightly grey hazy area next then clear under? Maybe even a fourth layer on the bottom? Try diluting to 17% and see if that bottom layer shows up?
This is reportedly done commercially with feints, drawing out only the clear middle section and discarding the rest. I've actually used to do this and totally forgot about it. Completely unrelated to you but I wonder if this might be why my last UJ was cloudy? I definitely didn't hydroseparate them that time, and they were feints that had been used repeatedly (in the add back to a spirit run way, not all feints runs). I had 2 or 3 gallons of feints in with 12 gallons of low wines.
Anyway, if you're looking for a possible solution it may well clean your tails up enough to use them again and again. I imagine a search here on hydroseparation will pull up a fair bit of discussion.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by fizzix »

I've also apologized to trbig67 personally in a PM.
I'm too new to be jumping on people. I felt I HAD to defend Saltbush Bill because he's a mentor, and then I lost track of what the hobby is about.
Turns out, I still have a lot to learn here.
Sorry trbig67.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by zapata »

So since this subject ended up being applicable to me, I went and downloaded a book I haven't had since a hard drive failed a while back.
From Whisky: Technology, Production and Marketing
Edited by: Inge Russell, Graham Stewart, Charlie Bamforth and Inge Russell
2003
regarding dilution
Page: 171-172
It is possible to be plagued with blank spirit runs, when no spirit is collected,
with resultant adverse effect on fuel usage. This is caused by weak charges (Zapata's note: not your problem) or
an imbalance in the low wines and feints, which may have increased in
strength allowing a high concentration of fusel oil to dissolve in the aqueous
alcohol layer. This is best avoided by distilling low wines and feints charges at
a strength of less than 30 per cent ABV. It can be overcome by adding water to
the charge to reduce the strength to below 30 per cent ABV.

Discharging the total contents of a low wines and feints charger into a still is
a recipe for blank runs, as the fusel oil layer that collects on the surface of the
low wines and feints in the receiver/charger can contaminate the still, making
it impossible to have a successful demisting test when applied to the foreshots.
A balanced distillation regime can overcome these problems.
dilution again, but also increasing acidity:
page 164-165
The alcoholic strength of the charge of combined foreshots, feints and low
wines should not exceed 30 per cent ABV; strengths in excess of this lead to
blank runs, when the demisting test fails to indicate potable spirit. In such
circumstances the demisting test protects the previously collected potable
charges from an influx of non-potable spirit, which, with its high concentrations
of higher fatty acid esters and long chain saturated carboxylic acids
,
would impart a ‘feinty’ note to the spirit. The demisting test should always
be available, even if foreshots are collected on a timed basis.
Low wines and feints receivers and chargers act as separating vessels. The
last runnings of a spirit distillation contain the heavy oils or esters that are not
readily soluble in water. Such oils have an affinity for alcohol, especially at
high strength. At a strength of less than 30 per cent ABV these compounds
undergo a phase separation, where the esters float on top of the aqueous layer
while a small proportion are dissolved in the aqueous layer. If the concentration
of alcohol is allowed to exceed 30 per cent ABV, these floating surface oils
migrate into the higher alcoholic strength aqueous layer, being completely
dissolved. This effect eventually impacts not only on the demisting test, but
also on the whole spirit distillation – potable spirit cannot be collected as the
charge of low wines and feints contains a disproportionate concentration of
heavy oils, making it impossible to have a turbidity-free demisting test result.
With low wines and feints charges at less than 30 per cent ABV, it is still
possible to attract distillation problems. Presentation of the floating surface
layer of heavy oils or higher fatty acid esters as a charge to the still (by
completely emptying the contents of the charger into the still) will result in
an episode when the collection of potable spirit (as determined by the demisting
test) is unachievable. The whole spirit distillation system will have been
contaminated by these esters, and it can take several distillations before satisfactory
spirit is again obtained.
To avoid such scenarios, when the low wines and feints appear to be
approaching higher strengths (or have even reached this situation) the charge
can be diluted with water, aiming for a combined strength of less than 30 per
cent ABV and thus stimulating hydroseparation. The surface phase must not
be allowed to enter the spirit still on charging.
and finally we get to your non-ethanol burn:
page 198 (specifically referring to a continuous still, but applicable enough to what hydroseparation can eliminate):
The water also causes separation of the water and fusel oil phases; fusel oil is decanted
off and the ethanol-rich water phase is returned to a lower plate of the column.
Fusel oil contains up to 95 per cent v/v iso-amyl alcohol, and small
amounts of ethanol, propanol and butanols.
There ya go, yes feints can build up acidity, yes you should dilute the still charge. Dilute any feints before reusing. Note that your feints are probably much higher proof than discussed here due to your still and practices. Remember the Scotts are running low abv to start with and running feints out till 1% not just 10-20% and even then still see the need to periodically dilute the feints. So take advantage of hydrosparation and don't reuse the floaty layer of of the feints. From a pretty legit source too, not just some boys club :lol: I don't see a bottom phase mentioned in the book, with hobbyists it is said heads components will form a bottom layer (especially if diluted to 17%), tails a top layer, middle is ethanol water and plenty of congeners to make it tasty. Now the demisting test referenced is only an indirect test for tails anyway, so you may not have cloudiness issues depending on exactly which congeners your recycling program concentrates. But I do sometimes.

In fact I'm ashamed to remember I actually learned all this a decade ago on yahoo distillers, and used it regularly with corn whiskey and recycling feints from run to run. I've branched out a lot from from corn in the last few years but not long ago revisited my old friend UJSSM and I get cloudy spirit. It's still tasty, but definitely fails the demisting test, of course not that demisting is an applicable test at the hobby scale but meaning that if a spirit is clouding when diluting to 40% much less adding ice or water for drinking it probably would've clouded throughout the fores/heads cut as well. I've been chalking it up to my tastes have changed to favor a wider cut. But you know what I don't remember ever having back in the day running UJ, hydroseparating the feints? Cloudy spirits. And I got nobody to blame but myself. But at least I remember how to fix it.
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Re: Acidic tails

Post by trbig67 »

Saltbush Bill wrote:
trbig67 wrote:1, Run wash to 210 degrees F. Ends up at @ 100pr.
zapata wrote: I am surprised that your stripping run is ending at such a high proof.
In my opinion these figures just do not stack up how ever you look at it. The low wines from a wash stripped down to 210f - 98.8889 C is not going to end up with an overall ABV of 50% unless you are forcing some sort of refux throughout the entire process. Maybe the thermometer is inaccurate.
If anybody has a better suggestion Id be happy to hear it.
I've really got no way to test the thermometer unless I drill another hole in my pot for a 2nd one. I do know it boils water exactly on the dot at 212 degrees though. All I have to check ABV is hydrometers and the two I have read the same. Not trying to argue with you in any way, just stating my findings.
fizzix wrote:I've also apologized to trbig67 personally in a PM.
I appreciate it and acccept. No harm, no foul. I never meant to come across to Saltgrass rudely at all, so sorry you felt the need to defend. Things lost in translation sometimes.
zapata wrote:Jeez! I just remembered! Trbig, got any of these feints laying around? Try a hydro separation on them. Dilute a sample to below 27% in a tall glass vessel and let em sit for a few hours, maybe overnight. Do you have visible layers? Oil slick on top, slightly grey hazy area next then clear under? Maybe even a fourth layer on the bottom? Try diluting to 17% and see if that bottom layer shows up?
Sitting since this morning and no layers. Just clear liquid. I'll dilute down to 17% and check back on it in the morning. I don't keep many heads though. I have many uses around here for the first part of the run before the hearts hit. I was always told this is where the hangovers are. I don't get them, but I don't want to start either! lol.

On my stripper runs, I filter it through a few layers of paper coffee filters. By the end of the run when I shut it off at 210, there's quite a bit of brown junk in the filter along with an oily layer there. I'm assuming that catches quite a bit of that because on my 2nd run, the filter stays clean. Then off to the charcoal. Saltgrass was asking about the charcoal. Chef Paul from Key West distillery said his filter will do 500 gallons before changing the charcoal. He has a bit more volume than I do but I figure a fair estimate would be 100 gallons? Only way to know for sure is before/after taste tests really. You don't "Re-activate" it, you just replace it. Activating charcoal (You can read how do do it yourself with salt and water) opens the charcoal up microscopically to where one gram, about the weight of a paper clip, will now have the surface area of 3,000 sq. meters (32,000 sq ft). That is hard for my barely-above-neanderthal brain to grasp, but what it means is there is a whole lot of tiny tubes to filter things. I don't imagine many of the oils and/or suspended particles make it past.
Maybe what you're running into is that simply that feints from feints simply ain't good to use again?
Probably the best answer to all of this so far. lol.

Now... What is a de-misting test? I have found several references, but no actual explanation. Is that just adding water and checking for cloudiness?
Last edited by trbig67 on Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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