dephleg temp, power output, ABV take off rate ratio?

[Birzzz]

I'm trying to perfecting out the ratio between all the parameters,

Here's the setup:

26 Gallon bain-marie(water), 2x 5500w heating elements. 4 plates 4" column setup.

How do I know I'm putting too much or too little power? From the tests we've done, reducing the power output to 20% when it's time to start collecting and rising the temperature of the dephlegmator to 60c-65c gives us a controllable stream. Do the numbers seem OK? How can I know I'm using the ideal power output and dephlegmator temp ratio? I tried one time to crank the power output past 30%, but my vapor temps went like 85c and ABV dropped near 75%, even if my dephlegmator was at 60c. Also what ABV% take off rate should I look for for whiskey? 78-82%? Should I look for specific liter per hour too? specific vapour temp?

Thanks in advance,

[HDNB]

65* is a wee bit hot. i'd look for no more than 140*F, not sure how many C's. it really depends more on desired ABV and input water temperature and as you learned, vapour speed

by law whiskey comes off "less" than 190 proof. what should yours be? whatever fits your needs. i run 136 to 156 proof depending on my recipe.(68-78%) for a full bodied flavour. 190 is very light.

stream speed? look to flavour. demisting tests tells some tales too (tails). if you're too hot you'll smear tails through the whole run.

LPH variables are huge. on a 4" think 4-8 would be my guess. a lot will depend on the cooling.

[bluefish_dist]

You want to use power to control vapor speed which should be related to flavor. Then use the deflag temp and flow rate to control reflux which will control your takeoff abv.
Faster vapor speeds will give more smearing which is needed for whiskey, slower will give a cleaner product. On a 4" I ran about 6000 to 6500w for whiskey and 5500 w for neutrals. Personally I like the abv for whiskey to be around 140 or less. I run whites closer to 160-170.
Takeoff should be about 1 gallon/hr. Slightly faster for whiskeys.

It's all about learning what you like and what settings it takes on your rig to make it. I am just over 100 runs now and am only now getting a good idea what I have to do to make what I want.

[still_stirrin]

...How do I know I'm putting too much or too little power? From the tests we've done, reducing the power output to 20% when it's time to start collecting and rising the temperature of the dephlegmator to 60c-65c gives us a controllable stream. Do the numbers seem OK?

If it's working, then it is probably OK. Git chur "big boy pants" on and learn to run it. You've got to learn the nuances of your still (experience it).

....How can I know I'm using the ideal power output and dephlegmator temp ratio? I tried one time to crank the power output past 30%, but my vapor temps went like 85c and ABV dropped near 75%, even if my dephlegmator was at 60c.

Again, "experience" with your still is needed.

...Also what ABV% take off rate should I look for for whiskey? 78-82%? Should I look for specific liter per hour too? specific vapour temp?

Most often whiskey goes into the cask at 120-130 proof (60-65%ABV), so you want to collect the hearts around that target...70-75%ABV should be more than adequate. Experience will tell you exactly where you want to collect to fill the barrels without diluting excessively and obtain the biggest flavor gains.

How fast you collect depends on the heat input and the vapor velocity in the column. Typically, the larger column diameters produce more product per unit time. What's "right" depends on many factors and you alone can operate your still to establish what it should be.

EXPERIENCE necessary. If you have to ask, you may be out in front of yourself at this point.

Yet your questions lead me to believe you don't have a lot of experience with distillation processes. This site has worlds of info available if you're willing to spend the time (as a new hobbiest usually is).
ss

[HDNB]

this was getting a bit derailed, so i took it out back and cleaned it up a bit. Partially my fault, sorry for going off topic.
it's a good topic lets keep it on point.

[Birzzz]

Thanks all for the answers. Trust me, I've been reading a lot on how the distillation process works, but I just couldn't find that specific information on how to achieve the perfect ratio between deph temp/power output and ABV take off rate.

Back on the topic,

I forgot to mention that when we're in the equilibrium phase (30-60 minutes) we really need to turn down the power output to 18%, otherwise stuff is coming out the condenser. Even though the dephlegmator temp reads 11c (51f). This is one of the piece of the puzzle we're not mastering properly, when we want to start collecting we increase the power and temp from the dephlegmator to slowly start collecting the heads, then after adjusting again to have the proper takeoff ABV, LPH rate and vapour temp. That's why we're trying to figure out what are the best numbers for our still and master how the lag between when we dial in the new input affect the whole thing.

That being said, we are clearly not masters, kind of why I chose this forum category. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[still_stirrin]

Thanks all for the answers. Trust me, I've been reading a lot on how the distillation process works, but I just couldn't find that specific information on how to achieve the perfect ratio between deph temp/power output and ABV take off rate.

Back on the topic,

I forgot to mention that when we're in the equilibrium phase (30-60 minutes) we really need to turn down the power output to 18%, otherwise stuff is coming out the condenser. Even though the dephlegmator temp reads 11c (51f). This is one of the piece of the puzzle we're not mastering properly, when we want to start collecting we increase the power and temp from the dephlegmator to slowly start collecting the heads, then after adjusting again to have the proper takeoff ABV, LPH rate and vapour temp.

To me, it sounds like your dephlag is undersized for the vapor production. You need the capability to knock it down, not simply stop the vapors rising. Can you add another section of dephlag on the top? Increasing the water flowrate won't solve the problem if there isn't enough dwell time in the RC.
ss

[MoonBreath]

All good answers...What you're lookn for can't really be found in a book..HD the closest you'll get to hands on experience.
Which is the only thing that will cure the cat..
Like bluefish said, 100+ runs...I'm along my way also.
My advice for an answer to your subject line would be 'overkill' on the rc capacity And your heat source(s)..Don't forget the pc.
Your abv will take off on its own till you get a complete handle.

[bluefish_dist]

The lag and having to have constant water temp or adjust as water temp changes are both reasons I chose a vm. I still have a short lag from valve adjustment to temp change, but it's pretty quick. Maybe 1-2 min max.

It takes patience and if you don't wait to stabilize again after an adjustment you will be chasing yourself all day. The way I run (6") is hold full reflux at 60% power, then take off heads at a high reflux rate, 2l/30 min. Then add power 100% and open up the takeoff to get 2l/every 8-12 min. As abv drops I adjust reflux to slow the drop in abv until I hit the lowest abv I want to hold. Then add reflux to compress the tails.
I know others who do two runs, one strip, one finish. In that case they use reflux to compress the heads, then almost turn off the deflag and run it like a pot still. Both methods work, just depends what you want to make.

[MoonBreath]

Our techniques are similar, just different scaled.
Also, I prefer a tad slower stream/rate.
After many runs, it dawned on me...Now its my norm.

[googe]

From many experienced members on many forums, a general figure on a 4" is around 2.2~2.8 lph. Higher abv if you can, why not get the best you can to work with?. Learn blending. I've never had a thermo, I run off taste, smell, feel. Moonbreath is correct, hands on is the only way, the greatest benefit to making your own is, you can make it to your personal tastes.

[Saltbush Bill]

I'm with Goo on the out put speed, 2-2.8L and hour on a 4 inch is enough in my books, any higher and you risk pulling tails through into your hearts.

On a 4" I ran about 6000 to 6500w for whiskey and 5500 w for neutrals.

Wow thats a lot of power, Lots of people around using only 2500-3200 in the circles I move in.

[bluefish_dist]

I can pull 4.5l per hour on my 4" packed column at 191 from low wines. I have run it as fast at 8000w, but It works better at 5500w. When I ran 4" on my big still, from wash, I ran it at 6000w for whiskeys. That was about the limit for flooding on my sieve plates. Bubble plates topped out at 4000w.

[MoonBreath]

Good info thread...Pro numbers always get home folks wonderin.

[googe]

Low wines is a different animal.

[Saltbush Bill]

Most 4 inch 4 perf plate columns Ive seen will flood at that kind of power.........bubble caps I cant say, never run them .....nor seen them run.

I can pull 4.5l per hour on my 4" packed column at 191 from low wines.

At that kind of take off rate my still and most of the others Ive had any experience with would be pulling tails through like it was going out of fashion.

[bluefish_dist]

My vodka column is 4" over a 6" bubble plate and 8ft of packed with scrubbies. At 5500w it is 20ft/sec vapor speed, same as a 2" at 1400w. Off low wines it will fill 1500ml every 20min. It has 8000w available and I have run the full 8kw, but it becomes less efficient later in the run and needs the power turned down to keep holding 191 proof.

[Saltbush Bill]

Well that's a whole lot different to running 4 perf plates for rum or whisky isn't it.

[bluefish_dist]

Yes, but I ran 4" sieve plates making rum/whiskey etc at 6000w just as fast or faster from wash. Ran that way for about a year until I went to 6". now it will run 12kw and pull off 1.5l every 6-8 minutes depending on wash abv.

Sieve plate with .070" hole will take 30w per hole. A 4" plate can easily have 210+ holes. 6" is over 525.

[MoonBreath]

Gonna run me some likker here, gonna squeeze heads and dial in at 180° till the end.
Prolly end up at full throttle and rc maxed out.

[Birzzz]

thanks to all for the replies. Can't wait till next run

[googe]

Doesn't matter in the end what anyone here says, you need to try different ways to find what you like. If you stick to one process someone advises you on, your limiting yourself.