Trying to understand my Plated column

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corene1
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Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by corene1 »

I am asking this question out of a need to see what others are getting from their plated columns. I see quite a few folks here trying to get as high of ABV as possible and their methodology getting there. A while back I built a 4 inch plated column just to see if I could and to compare it to my pot still as far as performance goes . It made 191 easily with 4 plates on a first run boiler charge of 10% wash. Now I am no scientist I am a tinkerer and as such am not real familiar with all the reflux ratios and vapor speed measurements I just built it and ran it. Now I am doing rum and am only running a single plate but my takeoff is still at 180 proof on a 10% ABV boiler charge collecting at 1 quart every 20 minuets. It is good rum but I am wanting to collect at around 140 to 150 and bring even more flavor across into the spirit and don't have to water down the spirit as much to drink. So I have been pushing up the heat and lowering the amount of cooling water in the reflux condenser on top of the column. So my question would be how do you folks control your column to keep the ABV lower and increase the flavor of the spirit, particularly with rums and whiskies. Or is my column just one of those things that came together right and like to run high ABV's. It certainly wasn't by science .
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by bluefish_dist »

You are on the right path with fewer plates. On my column with 2 plates I can easily run from 120-140 proof. At best I can get about 180 proof.

More heat and less reflux will dial in the right abv. Since it sounds like you are on gas, figure out what heat will flood the column, then back off just a little. That will get the heat right. Then adjust the reflux to get the abv you want.
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corene1
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by corene1 »

Thanks, That is the difficult part of this hobby. Even though we have a great resource here it is not like learning with someone right there with you to say hey that is just right or try this. There is a lot of trial and error going on.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Using more molasses or less plates is the way to go for a bolder flavoured rum in my opinion. Trying to "force" a plated column to run at an abv where its not happy has never worked for me. Like most stills they have a sweet spot and that's where they work best.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by Honest_Liberty »

I just ordered a 4", 4 plate perforated column. comes with dephleg and shotgun condenser... all that.

I have never run plates before. If I don't run the dephleg, is it effectively a pot still? I am very confused on what to expect
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Without the dephlag its pretty much just a potty.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by Honest_Liberty »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:46 pm Without the dephlag its pretty much just a potty.
Hmm
Ok, so the reflux can be run at such a method as to produce 160 proof instead of 190? I've heard that one should run the cooling water from top to bottom, and keep it separate from the condensing water, I am unsure of the technicality. Additionally, I've read and seen multiple set ups and can't figure out how to begin


This original post has me rush perplexed and in agreement
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by cranky »

Honest_Liberty wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:23 pm Hmm
Ok, so the reflux can be run at such a method as to produce 160 proof instead of 190? I've heard that one should run the cooling water from top to bottom, and keep it separate from the condensing water, I am unsure of the technicality. Additionally, I've read and seen multiple set ups and can't figure out how to begin


This original post has me rush perplexed and in agreement
I know you asked this of SBB but thought I'd add my 2 cents. If I run my flute at too low of an ABV it pushes tails through prematurely. The flute itself will let you know what % it likes to run at. I've run it without using the dephleg and there is a small amount of reflux that takes place particularly early on.

Even though it may go against the conventional wisdom I think all the stuff about running the cooling water with the inlet at the top and outlet at the bottom is backwards thinking (just my opinion). The way I see it is the colder water will naturally sink to the bottom regardless of where it goes in and the hot water will rise so it isn't really accomplishing anything other than draining cooler water. Also having the water enter at the top rather than bottom you risk the chance of the dephleg not being full. I think most people who run that way place their control valve on the outlet as well in an attempt to keep the dephleg full. This results in the dephleg being pressurized which is something I don't like, not only because I don't really trust my soldering under pressure but I'd rather it not be pressurized. Both my inlet and control valve are on the bottom and my flute works just fine. There is also the time I had a pump fail during a run but the system actually kept water circulating without it because I had the reservoir level with the dephleg.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

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This thread got me thinking. 1. If you are running 2 bubble plates in a 4 plate column, are they placed closer to the dephleg or closer to the pot? Is it good to keep the column height, even if you are not using plates in some sections? 2. Can you slowly turn the dephleg off (maybe after heads has come through) to where it transforms forced reflux into a pot still during the run? I read about this in a book about different rum-making techniques. They compress the heads with good forced-reflux occurring, and then back off/turn off dephleg flow rate during hearts to enrich flavors. ?
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by bluefish_dist »

ParrotHead wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:31 pm This thread got me thinking. 1. If you are running 2 bubble plates in a 4 plate column, are they placed closer to the dephleg or closer to the pot? Is it good to keep the column height, even if you are not using plates in some sections? 2. Can you slowly turn the dephleg off (maybe after heads has come through) to where it transforms forced reflux into a pot still during the run? I read about this in a book about different rum-making techniques. They compress the heads with good forced-reflux occurring, and then back off/turn off dephleg flow rate during hearts to enrich flavors. ?
When I ran 2 plates, I simply removed sections. Column got shorter, same distance from condenser to top plate. I never ran low reflux as with 2 plates the abv is pretty low and to get what I wanted, I needed a decent amount of reflux. My process is the same for all spirits, high reflux, pull off heads (165 deg). Then into the run reduce reflux until head temp hit 185, then slowly increase reflux to hold 180-185. Once I could no longer hold 185, shut down. Note those temps are for 6200ft elevation. Add 7-10 deg for sea level. While my process was the same for vodka, whites and aged the temperatures were not. Vodka was ~164 the whole run, whites 173-175.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

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I placed my two bubble plates closer to the pot, kept the other two sections there plus a sight glass with no dephleg. There was very active reflux happening (waterfall in the sightglass and mild bubbling) until vapor temps shot up to 80 deg C and stuck there for most of the run, and the ABV started at 86% and stuck there for most of heads and hearts. So now that I have figured the system out without a dephleg, now I want to try it with a dephleg and see the difference. I was thinking about adding one more bubble plate, which for this 1.5 inch column is only one bubbler (not 3 or 4), so my thinking is that I can probably add another plate without stripping too much flavor (Push the limit until I know I've gone too neutral of a spirit). I read that the longer the column even without any packing material or plates will cause cleaner fractionation (separation). Still on the fence if removing the 2 sections are beneficial or better to leave them there? Maybe I should stick with the 2 plates and add the dephleg and see what ABV increases to instead of adding more variables like another plate. Just thinking out loud.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by bluefish_dist »

Play with different configurations and see what they make. I might even try a single plate as 86% is still pretty high for takeoff abv for barrel aging. I usually pulled 68-70% for barrel aged. Whites at 80-85.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by Saltbush Bill »

If your going to use one plate you might as well revert to using a pot still.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 3:26 pm If your going to use one plate you might as well revert to using a pot still.
Agreed.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by shadylane »

Given a pot and only one plate, I'd do stripping runs.
Then redistill as needed :wink:
That first plate makes a damn good tails trap.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by Windy City »

I like to run four plates if I am “stripping” to later run in my packed column for neutral.
If I want to make whiskey, rum or bourbon I normally take out two plates to bring over more flavor and a lower ABV. My thought is that it replicates closer towards pot still strip/spirit run, but I get to do it in one run.
Due to the way my four plate column is piped I can’t take out sections so I only remove plates.
I remove the bottom plates so the reflux from the deflag isn’t dropping from a greater height onto the plate.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

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Windy City wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:16 pm I like to run four plates if I am “stripping” to later run in my packed column for neutral.
If I want to make whiskey, rum or bourbon I normally take out two plates to bring over more flavor and a lower ABV. My thought is that it replicates closer towards pot still strip/spirit run, but I get to do it in one run.
Due to the way my four plate column is piped I can’t take out sections so I only remove plates.
I remove the bottom plates so the reflux from the deflag isn’t dropping from a greater height onto the plate.
1. Why would it matter how far the reflux liquid fell back down the column?
2. If you could remove your sections that do not have bubble plates in them, do you think your ABV would drop? Do you think that the greater the height of the column the more separation (higher ABV/purity) you get?
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

Post by Windy City »

ParrotHead wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:57 pm
Windy City wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:16 pm I like to run four plates if I am “stripping” to later run in my packed column for neutral.
If I want to make whiskey, rum or bourbon I normally take out two plates to bring over more flavor and a lower ABV. My thought is that it replicates closer towards pot still strip/spirit run, but I get to do it in one run.
Due to the way my four plate column is piped I can’t take out sections so I only remove plates.
I remove the bottom plates so the reflux from the deflag isn’t dropping from a greater height onto the plate.
1. Why would it matter how far the reflux liquid fell back down the column?
2. If you could remove your sections that do not have bubble plates in them, do you think your ABV would drop? Do you think that the greater the height of the column the more separation (higher ABV/purity) you get?
1. It may not mater as I have not done any testing but my thought was the reflux hits the plate being mounted closer to the deflag like a gentle rain instead of building up velocity by being further away and creating much more splash.

2. My column is not mounted on my boiler and is set up as a side column. I can’t remove sections easily due to the way it is plumbed. I don’t think having the additional 2 empty tees below my plates changes the ABV at all
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

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ParrotHead wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:57 pm 2. If you could remove your sections that do not have bubble plates in them, do you think your ABV would drop? Do you think that the greater the height of the column the more separation (higher ABV/purity) you get?
The abv will be the same regardless of what order you have your two plates however, if you space them apart, say 1st and 3rd or 2nd and 4th , you will have greater plate spacing and therefore much lower entrainment .
This will mean you can run the still harder than if you just had the plates consecutive and give you greater flexibility.
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Re: Trying to understand my Plated column

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Yummyrum wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:27 pm
ParrotHead wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:57 pm 2. If you could remove your sections that do not have bubble plates in them, do you think your ABV would drop? Do you think that the greater the height of the column the more separation (higher ABV/purity) you get?
The abv will be the same regardless of what order you have your two plates however, if you space them apart, say 1st and 3rd or 2nd and 4th , you will have greater plate spacing and therefore much lower entrainment .
This will mean you can run the still harder than if you just had the plates consecutive and give you greater flexibility.
Very good to know. Thank You. If I am getting first ABV off the spout at 86% and hearts around 85% on the average with 2 plates and no dephleg . . . then if I used a dephleg, what could I expect (that being the only variable) if I only equilibrate the column for 5-10 minutes? I don't want to loose any flavor but I want to squeeze some more hearts out. I'm doing rum, apple brandy, and whiskey (Bourbon and single/double malts). So far this new set up for rum is producing twice the amount final product than my pot still did (8 bottles, which makes it so much more worth the time investment). Even getting 2 more bottles of apple brandy which would not be possible without a plate column.
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