Novice Guide?

[SherrodBrown]

I am still in the learning phase but I have tried to calculate as much as possible to see what would happen with the different oils and volatiles. To me there seems to be some merit to the claims from some that the vapor temp is either connected to the concentration within a given solution or its ability to dissolve in water. Some of alcohols are different from one another. Iso-2 which dissolves easily in water ( they say ) ,and wood spirit that dissolves with ethanol and shares the same polarity. In any case that would explain why 2- prop, one of the 2 hazardous alcohols evaporates at it's own temp range whereas methanol seems to get stuck in the end of pot still runs. Methanol looks like it needs lot of heat and energy tmfor it's molecules to shake loose from the ethanol . And it would folllow with the water content in each stripping jar according to the temp rise . Iso-2 would therefore be found in different jars as water comes along early and it is already dissolved unlike methanol. To me that gives me an indication that tails might be discarded. Or redistilled. For now I'm planning on making a 5-40-60-100 cut And keep the percentile 40-60 for my finest spirits. I am a theorical guy. I speculate a lot and don't take my word. Do your own homework.

[Alchemist75]

Tails a.k.a. backings are good to recycle in stripping runs. It'll increase yield in a real way and give better flavor. Fores and heads are a great cleaning solvent so I always collect and save them. Make tight cuts until you know your cut points, if I'm working with something new I cut every 100 ml to get surgical precision with the final product. You'll learn the good from the bad pretty quick if you just use your senses, they'll tell you all you need to know.

[NZChris]

I stopped putting tails back into stripping runs years ago because I was having to cut tails earlier with each spirit run. Like many, I've taken to saving feints for All Feints runs, sometimes done with a fresh wash top up.

[still_stirrin]

...I have tried to calculate as much as possible...the vapor temp is...connected to the concentration within a given solution...alcohols are different from one another. Iso-2 which dissolves easily in water...Methanol..needs lot of heat and energy for it's molecules to shake loose from the ethanol...

For now I'm planning on making a 5-40-60-100 cut And keep the percentile 40-60 for my finest spirits. I am a theorical guy. I speculate a lot...

Theoretical, huh? Consider this, when you brew your distiller’s beer, do you control it precisely; that is, measure the ingredients exactly, ensure the grain properties to be the same (moisture content, protein, diastatic power, maturity, etc.), follow a precisely controlled protocol (times and temps of mashing), use the same strain of yeast measured in active cell count? Do you ensure the OG of the wort is exactly the same when starting and do you regulate the ferment rate? Only if you fully control ALL of the aspects of the fermentation will you be able to control the congener byproducts from it. Otherwise, the byproducts will vary somewhat and you won’t be able to “measure” the cut points at the points you’ve envisioned. Proper cuts depend on the amount and types of fermentation byproducts in the wash.

And distillation follows the rules of Raoult’s law (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoult%27s_law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow] where the amount of congeners in the vapor is proportional to the vapor pressure of the constituents in the mixture, which indeed depends on the boiling point of the components. As a result, the temperature of the boil will vary as the mixture liberates the volatiles initially progressing to the components with a higher boiling point.

Boil Temps of Constituents
Acetone . . . . . . . . . . 56.5C (133.7F)
Methanol . . . . . . . . . . 64C (147.2F)
Ethyl acetate. . . . . . .77.1C (170.8F)
Ethanol . . . . . . . . . . . .78C (172.4F)
2-Propanol . . . . . . . . . .82C (179.6F)
1-Propanol . . . . . . . . . .97C (206.6F)
Water . . . . . . . . . . . . 100C (212F)
Isobutanol . . . . . . . .107.9C (226.2F)
Butanol . . . . . . . . . . . 116C (240.8F)
2-methyl-1-butanol . . .128.7C (263.7F)
Isopentanol . . . . . . . .131.1C (269.1F)
Amyl alcohol. . . . . . .137.8 C (280F)
Furfural . . . . . . . . . . . 161C (321.8F)

However, keep in mind that methanol forms an azeotrope with ethanol, so it indeed has a tendency to “hang on” to the ethanol molecules in the mixture as it vaporizes. As a result, methanol (if actually in the fermentation byproducts) can be carried through the hearts portion even though the boiling point of methanol is slightly lower than ethanol. The best way to eliminate methanol from your product is to avoid producing it in the ferment. Ingredients and brewing processes are the key to this.

In conclusion, to state definitive cut points as a rule is a little hap-hazard...it is a “hit or miss” proposition. Exacting control over your recipe, ingredients, and processes can improve repeatability, but it is still a “shaky target”. Sure, the commercial guys do it, but they have the advantage of many, many runs done exactly the same. And then, they also blend the products (or use continuous processing) to get an average...average of the extremes and average of quality...and mixing some heads and tails into the prime hearts. For a commercial producer, it is all about “profit margin”. But for us hobbiests, quality of the product is a goal. Let your senses be the judge.
ss

[Alchemist75]

I stopped putting tails back into stripping runs years ago because I was having to cut tails earlier with each spirit run. Like many, I've taken to saving feints for All Feints runs, sometimes done with a fresh wash top up.

Interesting, I don't doubt what you say holds true for you. I've found precisely the opposite to be true for me. I end up with more low wines and more new make with both pot still set ups and columns. I make pretty sharp cuts on both strips and spirits too. I keep expecting to run into what you describe but it never comes. This point seems a matter of some debate on these forums, what to do with the backings.

[still_stirrin]

...I keep expecting to run into what you describe but it never comes.

I suspect you’re “getting soft” with your cuts. I concur with Chris on this...the feints tend to build up in subsequent runs when adding them back continuously to the wash or low wines. Now, I save feints for a separate run.
ss

[Alchemist75]

Soft? Please elaborate. I cut very tight at the beginning and end points on spirit runs: every 100 ml for several hundred ml so I can pick out where the cut points start and end. My product thus far is very consistent as far as I or anyone who's tried it can tell...

[Alchemist75]

Of course I failed to say that I only recycle backings from the set of stripping runs they were taken from. Once the last stripping run from a series of ferments is finished any tails left over get canned. I do 20 gallon ferments broken between 5, 4 gallon fermenters. Each fermenter is a single stripping run. The tail from the previous strip will go into the next until all 5 are knocked down. The tail from the final run is NOT recycled into the next 20 gallon batch. That's why I don't run into problems right there. Maybe saying that they get partially recycled is a better way to phrase it. Sorry.

[NZChris]

We seem to be talking a different language, Alch.. My 'backings' go into the next generation ferment and I don't have 'tails' from stripping runs, only spirit runs.

[Alchemist75]

We are talking a different language lol. Or at least using the same jargon differently. What you call backings is what I call backset, dunder or slop. Backings as I was taught is interchangeable with tails. Usually if I'm thinking about the backings I'm thinking about all the stuff that follows after the tail cut on any run which is likely to get recycled either to try to recover the ethanol in it or to impart flavor to another product e.g. corn mash/wash with some grain backings mixed into it before the run. Basically mid to late tails product.

[Alchemist75]

And to clarify further, I'm one of these weirdos who makes cuts on both runs. The strip gets a fores cut based on the volume of wash in the boiler and the tail cut is when the booze won't burn on a spoon any more. What follows that is backings. The precise cuts are made on the spirit run and I don't keep heads or tails from that, well not to drink at any rate.

[NZChris]

Look it up in the glossary, note that it's description is for 'backins' without the 'g' and doesn't include late distillate from a pot still stripping run.

[NZChris]

I'm one of the weirdos who strip their flavored product until reaching their desired abv for the spirit run, a technique that leaves little ethanol in the backset and finishes with the output so low in alcohol that it's not worth keeping.

[Alchemist75]

Backins': gotta say that one with a southern twang. Seems like I've seen it spelled both ways in other threads and sites.
In a way I'm basically doing the same thing but the portion of stripped product that will go on to the spirit run is never collected below 40%. After that I probably run the rest down to about 20% and that gets put back into the next stripping run. The effect of this is a larger quantity of low wines on the next pass, also only run as deep as 40% and so on....

[Fiddleford]

In simple backins is what last comes off the worm and backset is the beer out of the still correct? Thats what I know, mh brain is cooked from a fire

[Alchemist75]

As I know it yes but obviously it depends on who you talk to.

[Alchemist75]

I don't do all feints runs so this is kind of my compromise. Re run the tails throughout the stripping phase to recover some of the ethanol. My end goal is to get the product as clean as possible by the end of the spirit run.....well with my usual product at any rate. Rums, whiskies and brandy are a horse of a different color.

[Fiddleford]

I don't stray to far from a pot still, I like some tails depending on what they are neutrals just arnt my thing. I know corn and barley well enough to not be incompetent with them.

[NZChris]

For pot stilled neutral, I recycle nothing. If it tastes bad, I figure I shouldn't be chucking it into my nice clean wash, so I shut the still down at 40% low wines and feints from the spirit run has to go into my feints collection. If I needed the lost alcohol I should have made a bigger wash

[Alchemist75]

I pot strip but then it goes through my column. As I sit here sipping it I realize I'm drinking a vodka that is naturally sugary sweet. Pretty good considering I hate commercial vodka. Nice buzz, ahem, anyway.... It's mission accomplished, next step is to get the new gin basket set up....
Some think the tails are garbage, some think they're full of flavor. When I add my "backins" to a different wash, corn or molasses the flavor carries through and changes things. I keep a jug of backings full and on hand in case more grain flavors are desired. My buddy shows up at my door with a bunch of corn based wash and I add some backings to give it a whisky character. He ages it on oak and swears it tastes like bourbon. Other than recycling it's a flavoring element just like juniper or anise. Dunno, you make it to your taste and for all I know you make the best on earth and I'd honestly love to taste even a shot of it. If I could get a sampler of all the product made by all the folks on this site I'd be delighted.....and drunk. I'll wager, Chris, that no two people on this site make exactly the same product even using the "same" recipe. There's the parameters of your ferment, the equipment you run it on, the way you run it, the way you cut it. That's takes us back to the op. This is not an exacting science and at our level quality is all most of us can claim. How you run and cut is up to you, chemistry and temperature are guidelines, not laws. The opinions and perspectives around here are vast and I've let some of them shape what I make just as you have. I make good spirit or so they tell me, I have a feeling you probably do too but how we both end up there might be a wee different. Not sure what constitutes the end all, be all of best practices but as long as it's a smooth drink I figure it's blue ribbon. More than many of the big distilleries can claim sadly.

[NZChris]

I suspect SherrodBrown is using a pot still, so what I do to make any products through my reflux still would be unhelpful.

[Alchemist75]

No, columns and pots are not comparable, in most cases at any rate. I'd probably still be inclined to re run backins, maybe even add a small quantity to the new make to give it a heavier flavor. Depends on what I'm running. A decent amount taken from a run of rum added on the spirit run of a grain wash maybe. Like I said, to me it's best use is to add flavors to finished product but that's just one opinion regarding it.

[SherrodBrown]

...I have tried to calculate as much as possible...the vapor temp is...connected to the concentration within a given solution...alcohols are different from one another. Iso-2 which dissolves easily in water...Methanol..needs lot of heat and energy for it's molecules to shake loose from the ethanol...

For now I'm planning on making a 5-40-60-100 cut And keep the percentile 40-60 for my finest spirits. I am a theorical guy. I speculate a lot...

Theoretical, huh? Consider this, when you brew your distiller’s beer, do you control it precisely; that is, measure the ingredients exactly, ensure the grain properties to be the same (moisture content, protein, diastatic power, maturity, etc.), follow a precisely controlled protocol (times and temps of mashing), use the same strain of yeast measured in active cell count? Do you ensure the OG of the wort is exactly the same when starting and do you regulate the ferment rate? Only if you fully control ALL of the aspects of the fermentation will you be able to control the congener byproducts from it. Otherwise, the byproducts will vary somewhat and you won’t be able to “measure” the cut points at the points you’ve envisioned. Proper cuts depend on the amount and types of fermentation byproducts in the wash.

And distillation follows the rules of Raoult’s law (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoult%27s_law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow] where the amount of congeners in the vapor is proportional to the vapor pressure of the constituents in the mixture, which indeed depends on the boiling point of the components. As a result, the temperature of the boil will vary as the mixture liberates the volatiles initially progressing to the components with a higher boiling point.

Boil Temps of Constituents
Acetone . . . . . . . . . . 56.5C (133.7F)
Methanol . . . . . . . . . . 64C (147.2F)
Ethyl acetate. . . . . . .77.1C (170.8F)
Ethanol . . . . . . . . . . . .78C (172.4F)
2-Propanol . . . . . . . . . .82C (179.6F)
1-Propanol . . . . . . . . . .97C (206.6F)
Water . . . . . . . . . . . . 100C (212F)
Isobutanol . . . . . . . .107.9C (226.2F)
Butanol . . . . . . . . . . . 116C (240.8F)
2-methyl-1-butanol . . .128.7C (263.7F)
Isopentanol . . . . . . . .131.1C (269.1F)
Amyl alcohol. . . . . . .137.8 C (280F)
Furfural . . . . . . . . . . . 161C (321.8F)

However, keep in mind that methanol forms an azeotrope with ethanol, so it indeed has a tendency to “hang on” to the ethanol molecules in the mixture as it vaporizes. As a result, methanol (if actually in the fermentation byproducts) can be carried through the hearts portion even though the boiling point of methanol is slightly lower than ethanol. The best way to eliminate methanol from your product is to avoid producing it in the ferment. Ingredients and brewing processes are the key to this.

In conclusion, to state definitive cut points as a rule is a little hap-hazard...it is a “hit or miss” proposition. Exacting control over your recipe, ingredients, and processes can improve repeatability, but it is still a “shaky target”. Sure, the commercial guys do it, but they have the advantage of many, many runs done exactly the same. And then, they also blend the products (or use continuous processing) to get an average...average of the extremes and average of quality...and mixing some heads and tails into the prime hearts. For a commercial producer, it is all about “profit margin”. But for us hobbiests, quality of the product is a goal. Let your senses be the judge.
ss

I totally agree with everything you say. You make me feel like a practical guy now. Im also trying to keep up with the new words. Im european. Backset - Is that the tails or as someone wrote, just the spent wash?

[acfixer69]

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=58100 this is how HD defines it.

[SherrodBrown]

we call it spent wash in france and sweden
.. by the way sometimes the word rectifier or rectifier column pops up . How would that apply to what people do here?

[Alchemist75]

we call it spent wash in france and sweden
.. by the way sometimes the word rectifier or rectifier column pops up . How would that apply to what people do here?

Spent wash, backset, slop etc. All describe the same thing.
Rectifier, fractionating column, reflux column also all refer to the same thing.
HD uses a glossary to help limit confusion but the truth of matter is that the lingo of distillation is pretty vast.

[SherrodBrown]

"....the truth of matter is that the lingo of distillation is pretty vast."

so I've notised. There must be at least 20 words for that column.