Some discourse from the rye whiskey thread originally George Washingtons rye whiskey then edited:
Allmyexsliveinhell wrote:
kiwi Bruce wrote:
bs5617 wrote:I made 2 batches the same recipe: the 1st no glycerin and the 2nd with glycerin: what I found that the glycerin helped with the aging and made the 2nd batch a lot smoother and a little sweeter. They use Glycerin in Schnapps and different types of food.
Glycerin is a unique additive, the Russians use a small amount in their commercial vodkas, and they did the research on what it does to spirits...ethanol has two molecular states after distilling, one is "twisted" it's called the "high energy state" and tastes "HOT" there is only about 20% of the new spirit in this state at 65% ABV but it's effect is very pronounced... as the spirit ages (or is diluted) it normalizes to it's low energy state and the taste mellows, but this state frees the hydrogen atom of the ethanol molecule, in what's called the "H2 bridge" to bond with other non-ethanol molecules, however there are substances...glycerin being one...that release the energy from the "twisted" high energy ethanol molecule by bonding to it in it's high energy state, mellowing the spirit out, unnaturally...giving the illusion of aging. There are components in red wine that supposedly can do the same thing...aging whiskey in sherry casks...etc
Interesting. So is it possible that the reason sugarheads have that bite is a large amount of the high energy molecules vs all grain for some reason? The sugar bite definitely reduces with age in my experience.
HDNB wrote:
kiwi Bruce wrote:
Allmyexsliveinhell wrote:Interesting. So is it possible that the reason sugarheads have that bite is a large amount of the high energy molecules vs all grain for some reason? The sugar bite definitely reduces with age in my experience.
This is quite possible...In all the years on HD forums I've heard no better explanation.
glycerol can be sourced from plant fats, lipids...even though it has a high boiling point we all know some plant fats get through. May have more than a little bit to do with it. got a new google mission!
Alright so looping back around to this: we have a thread for discussion of the sugarhead bite. What say you...and what ideas of other causes are out there?
I've often thought the additional flavor from boiling and steeping the grains during mashing may pad the bite some in thin mashes and make it seem less...
Also the thread on destrose recently got me thinking about this again and inspired this one. Dextrose and inverted sugar have less bite than other sugars according to alot of people. Why is this and is it linked to the high energy molecules situation?
Food for thought.
<no stopping to corner anytime [] no parking passenger zone>
When people tell me I'll regret that in the morning, I sleep till noon.
I have the molecular diagrams for the two states...I'll find them and post them. I no longer have access to the Scientific paper on this as I "lost" my PhD Chem Engineer.
Last edited by kiwi Bruce on Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
MtRainier wrote:Kiwi Bruce, I have access to most journals. If you have a citation I can pull the paper.
kiwi Bruce wrote:I have the molecular diagrams for the two states...I'll find them and post them. I no longer have access to the Scientific paper on this as I "lost" my PhD Chem Engineer.
Well guys, let's see what ya got! Also more explanation of the states of ethanol would be swell.
Is this related to molecular strain?
<no stopping to corner anytime [] no parking passenger zone>
When people tell me I'll regret that in the morning, I sleep till noon.
I think anything straight off the still has some bite for a while...now that I'm in my new place I'ma do some experiments. Once we get some more discussion. I mean we make some smooth rums outta sugar so maybe it's all matters of opinion?
<no stopping to corner anytime [] no parking passenger zone>
When people tell me I'll regret that in the morning, I sleep till noon.
kiwi Bruce wrote:I have the molecular diagrams for the two states...I'll find them and post them.
Well guys, let's see what ya got!
Also more explanation of the states of ethanol would be swell.
Is this related to molecular strain?
Is this related to molecular strain? Yes I think so... more explanation of the states of ethanol ...wish I still had that readily to hand...but sadly NO.
High energy first...
Aha! I just got home from a 13 hr shift at the bar(then went to another to unwind) but when I wake up later I'm gonna fill my day off with related research and we shall see what can be unraveled.
I have some regulars who are TAs at Tulane universitys labs here in New Orleans I may try and see if I can trade some bar tab action/favors for a gc/Ms or similar analysis on some new make and aged spirit samples of both sugarhead and AG mash... as well as distilled water/distilled water that was slightly sweetened.
Till later
AMELIH
<no stopping to corner anytime [] no parking passenger zone>
When people tell me I'll regret that in the morning, I sleep till noon.
Wouldn't the Russian vodka info stated have been via potato or grain which are glucose providing substrates so if conformational changes in ethanol is related to higher bitterness/heat then it is probably unrelated to the specific question around sugar head/bite? Glycerol tastes sweet and sweetness lessens subjective measures of bitterness(why most cats don't like chocolate).
Seems more likely the sugar bite is related to increased congeners relative to a pure glucose fermentation with Saccharomyces cerevisiae strains which are certainly glucophilic rather than fructophilic(some strains are more easily able to deal with fructose like dry wine selected strains).
In general S. cerevisiae will utilise glucose first before fructose and the ability to utilise fructose is more detrimentally effected by rising ethanol concentration than glucose increasing fermentation time and placing more stress on the yeast.
johnnyv wrote:Wouldn't the Russian vodka info stated have been via potato or grain
No...don't know about today, but the former Government openly admitted to using Ethane as the starting stock for State made vodka for internal consumption.
johnnyv wrote: Seems more likely the sugar bite is related to increased congeners relative to a pure glucose fermentation with Saccharomyces cerevisiae strains which are certainly glucophilic rather than fructophilic(some strains are more easily able to deal with fructose like dry wine selected strains).
In general S. cerevisiae will utilise glucose first before fructose and the ability to utilise fructose is more detrimentally effected by rising ethanol concentration than glucose increasing fermentation time and placing more stress on the yeast.
Yeah, that all makes a lot of sense.
I wonder if it would help to hit the ferment with a second load of healthy yeast part way through the ferment. The increased cell count and fresh vigour of the new yeast (before it does any budding off new generations) might be able to process the fructose with less congeners
I do this with all my sugar washes add my sugar over the first week start with 2/3 after 3 days half of the last third then the rest in two or three days keeps your yeast from being overwhelmed by all the sugar at once. After all the sugar has been added pitch your last batch of yeast. Keep a close watch on your Ph. or it may run up on you.
If for a moment we assume that glycerine can convert “high energy ethanol” to lower energy, what would be the benefit (if any) of adding glycerine to low wines prior to the spirit run?
Could this lessen the sugar bite? Glycerine boiling point about 300 so shouldn’t appreciably carry through…
Good judgement is the result of experience.
Experience is usually the result of bad judgement..
kiwi Bruce wrote:I have the molecular diagrams for the two states...I'll find them and post them.
Well guys, let's see what ya got!
Also more explanation of the states of ethanol would be swell.
Is this related to molecular strain?
Is this related to molecular strain? Yes I think so... more explanation of the states of ethanol ...wish I still had that readily to hand...but sadly NO.
High energy first...
Eclipsed conformation.jpg
and normal...after aging.
Staggered Conformation.jpg
For the sake of argument, let's say eclipsed confirmation indeed has more bite and at drinking temperature this hot form exists in appreciable amount, than just cooling will indeed convert eclipsed form into staggered form.
A chemical process isn't required to convert one form to another. Conformational changes are all about energy. Low energy states are more stable and all molecules are always trying to give off energy to come to stable energy state.
