what retuns to the boiler on a reflux column?

[Setsumi]

what returns to the boiler?

I am pretty sure it is sweet water.

I run a 5 plate flute, today just as the plates loaded I saw a droplet on my triclamp, while fiddling to seal it I tasted the drop. sweet water not a hint of alcohol. also not realy like tails. I tasted a few drops over say 5 minutes before I manage to seal it up. I understand it is only one data point but I am pretty sure returns to the boiler is water.

[Yummyrum]

Interesting question setsumi .

Water has to be one thing that is returned but other things will be as well throughout a run and these will vary .
One things for sure , there will be a lot of alcohol being returned for most of the run as can be seen by the lack of fogging on the bottom window . Only when tails are compressed and starting to come out the spout do the windows start to fog showing there is no more ( or sweet bugger all ) alcohols left so therefore it would be basically water going back toge boiler .

Now at the start of the run , mostly heads are coming off .
If you concider that each plate holds about 150-200mls , thats almost around a liter on a 4-5 plate still .
So if you are taking off about 2 lites of heads in a typical run , you could be pretty sure that for most of that period , some heads , tails and a shitload of ethanol are being returned to the boiler .... not to mention some water .

As the heads finally come off then there will be ethanol tails and water being returned .
Finally the heads are all out and the ethanol comes over , but again as the plates can only hold up to a liter of liquid , and several liters of hearts can be taken off , it stands to reason that a lot of that ethanol is still being returned to the boiler along with tails and water .

Well thats my take on it .

Having said all that , I have had the occasion to do the finger lick you are talking about and yeah , I agree , thats kinda what I thought too . I can’t explain why it doesn’t taste alcoholic other than the alcohol has been quickly evaporated from the drips due to the heat of the metal .

At the start of the run there most surely will be alcohol of one sort or another and at least the sweet taste of ethyl acetate up in the still .

[Setsumi]

yummy, thanks and i hear you, BUT.. it seems to me once a fraction enters a column it will stay there. provided your column is efficient enough to cycle it to the full enrichment and returning water. otherwise cuts would be pointless?

at a start run on a column fores will migrate to the top, the heads will stack antd the ethonol that entered will stay in the column just cycled between the plates. because the fraction of each is not that large. yes you still have a portion of each in the boiler but deminishing as time goes.

ja i know, it is not that easy...

[Cletus_Spuckler]

Im with yummy in that at the start of the run there is water, plus a ton of alcohol being returned. At the end of the run, this becomes mostly water/fusul oils.

One way of looking at it might be that during eq, once the column is fully loaded, all additional condensate (alcohol and water) is returned. Assuming you are boiling off alcholic vapour from the boiler faster than what you are taking off, alcohol must surely be returning back to the boiler.

Thats my guess anyway!

CS

[Setsumi]

there are 3 other things to consider than just the liquid depth on the plate. one is not all the alcohol enters the column at the same time, 2 is that the liquid in the column is NOT the only space occupied by the alchohol there is a large portion of vapour in the column. and 3 is enrichment of the beer charge from the pot vapour at say 51% (first distil cycle) to +90% happens in the column.

not saying you are wrong but if I remember correct Flying dutchmen had a thread on enrichment of alcohol, it happens when phase change occurs. so the vapour above a plate will have a higher % alchohol as the liquid on the plate. if the downcommer returns alchohol to a plate below it will vapourise again. so if it happens on the middle plate it will happen at the bottom plate as well?

i should not theorize....

[LWTCS]

Reflux ratio, collection speed, plate count (actual or theoretical) all contribute to there being no single answer.

[Bushman]

If you had a takeoff available at each plate I think it would just give us the same information that has been stated above. I loved those experiments that Mash Rookie did with his glass columns to see what was happening during a run. I like the idea that different things are falling depending on where you are in the run.

[Setsumi]

If you had a takeoff available at each plate I think it would just give us the same information that has been stated above. I loved those experiments that Mash Rookie did with his glass columns to see what was happening during a run. I like the idea that different things are falling depending on where you are in the run.

yes I enjoy reading Mash Rookies threads even while he is not here enymore. I envey you that were able to visit with him in person. I remember he placed a bowl in his kettle to catch returns but I think it did not work well but cant remember why.

[LWTCS]

Didn't work because it flashed as I recall.

[Yummyrum]

Captainshooch did such an experiment Here on CCSC forum

Here’s a sneaky pic , the rest is there .

Here are some results

With a wash of approx. 20% ABV.
top = 73.3°C (top temp at U bend)
plate 6 = 75.0°C
plate 5 = 76.0°C
plate 4 = 76.2°C
plate 3 = 76.3°C
plate 2 = 77.7°C
plate 1 = 79.6°C


ABV per plate with Temp when pulling from each plate individually:
plate 6 = 89% ABV = 74.8°C
plate 5 = 88% ABV = 75.9°C
plate 4 = 86% ABV = 75.6°C
plate 3 = 82% ABV = 75.4°C
plate 2 = 76% ABV = 76.8°C
plate 1 = 65% ABV = 77.8°C

So surely even if you had 65% abv on the bottom plate the overflow flow from that plate would still contain more than just water

[The Baker]

Is there or could there be any advantage in actually drawing off distillate from individual plates?
Either for a particular use;
or to maybe put into feints so as to allow the 'normal' distillate to be better (stronger? tastier? less taste as in say vodka? )
Some commercial set-ups seem to have the taps as shown here....
and it must be for a reason.

Geoff

[HDNB]

Is there or could there be any advantage in actually drawing off distillate from individual plates?
Either for a particular use;
or to maybe put into feints so as to allow the 'normal' distillate to be better (stronger? tastier? less taste as in say vodka? )
Some commercial set-ups seem to have the taps as shown here....
and it must be for a reason.

Geoff

What does Jimbo say about in theory and in practice?

there obviously would be differences, but would it be worth it? maybe... if you were running a 4 story tall 96 plater, but in our world cuts in a jar seems to be the more practical solution.

[Setsumi]

Captainshooch did such an experiment Here on CCSC forum

Here’s a sneaky pic , the rest is there .AE790201-BF6A-473A-9CC3-BAD753AB9FF6.jpeg
Here are some results

With a wash of approx. 20% ABV.
top = 73.3°C (top temp at U bend)
plate 6 = 75.0°C
plate 5 = 76.0°C
plate 4 = 76.2°C
plate 3 = 76.3°C
plate 2 = 77.7°C
plate 1 = 79.6°C


ABV per plate with Temp when pulling from each plate individually:
plate 6 = 89% ABV = 74.8°C
plate 5 = 88% ABV = 75.9°C
plate 4 = 86% ABV = 75.6°C
plate 3 = 82% ABV = 75.4°C
plate 2 = 76% ABV = 76.8°C
plate 1 = 65% ABV = 77.8°C

So surely even if you had 65% abv on the bottom plate the overflow flow from that plate would still contain more than just water

thanks Yummy, from the abv of the bottem plate it looks likely that alchohol will return. but I wonder how much will revaporize before returned because of the temp?

[Setsumi]

Didn't work because it flashed as I recall.

thanks, on your humper tower is it possible to get the complete alchohol volume in the column before you start drawing product? and if it is possobile, how long does it take?

[googe]

When you mentioned watery taste it made me think i've experienced that at some point but couldnt remeber. I found it tonight in my side by side still thread where i had put a drain on the return pipe for testing return distilate abv etc.... i said "Just tested the drain, took fores then put it in full reflux, sample was 30%, very watery tasting, next to no burn".

[Odin]

In my thinking what returns must be at least single distilled. Otherwise an inverse situation - temperature wise - would establish, which would basically hinder (or rather: exclude) vapors traveling up. I'd say a perfectly tuned column in terms of performance, desired abv, reflux ratio, etc. SHOULD return what's only single distilled in terms of abv. If the column returns higher proof than single distilled, it isn't working optimally and creating inefficiencies.

Regards, Odin.

[LWTCS]

Didn't work because it flashed as I recall.

thanks, on your humper tower is it possible to get the complete alchohol volume in the column before you start drawing product? and if it is possobile, how long does it take?

If you are including the inline thumper as part of the column assembly then yes I believe so by virtue of the max fill volume of the thumper and the deeper liquid beds in the original 3 plate column.

The combined max fill volume in the entire apparatus exceeded the amount of alcohol contained in a full kettle charge of beer.

Alcohol shifting was what I was trying to do. Not returning any previously distilled alcohol back to the kettle while simultaneously not returning any water to further dilute any remaining alcohol in the kettle.

I never did install any sample ports or judiciously placed thermometers to confirm at what point would have been the most optimal time to kill the 100% reflux mode and collect product. But I did later install a sight glass with the goal of using a visual indicator to collect product before the thumper filled high enough to drain back to the kettle.
Once drainback starts to happen, the system then runs less optimally.

As far as how long it takes to shift all of the alcohol into the apparatus? Well that depends on how much heat you're throwing at the kettle. Right? And how much water intrusion you are willing to allow. I never take notes and my refluxing times varied depending on what I wanted as finished product. But usually how much time did I have to play before I had to go out and cut the grass.

I may have made note of time on one of the YouTube videos. Lemme check and see.

[Setsumi]

In my thinking what returns must be at least single distilled. Otherwise an inverse situation - temperature wise - would establish, which would basically hinder (or rather: exclude) vapors traveling up. I'd say a perfectly tuned column in terms of performance, desired abv, reflux ratio, etc. SHOULD return what's only single distilled in terms of abv. If the column returns higher proof than single distilled, it isn't working optimally and creating inefficiencies.

Regards, Odin.

Odin, if the column returns a single distilation abv I think it would starve. to me googe's number of 30% is more acceptable because the way a column enrich a charge must means that a smaller % is returned than enters.

reading LWTCS comment on the sight glass in the thumper to be able to draw poroduct before return to keep efficiency high I reluctantly agree that alchohol is returned to the pot during a reflux run.

[LWTCS]

Is there or could there be any advantage in actually drawing off distillate from individual plates?
Either for a particular use;
or to maybe put into feints so as to allow the 'normal' distillate to be better (stronger? tastier? less taste as in say vodka? )
Some commercial set-ups seem to have the taps as shown here....
and it must be for a reason.

Geoff

Definitely. Put a trap at the take off port to prevent vapor escape and draw off of the 3rd or fourth plate for whiskey LM style.
Can prolly do VM with no issues on a batch system too.

It's just a matter of building an elegant way of tying all take off ports into your PC is all.

Horizontal, cross flow PC would ne easiest for dealing with all of the different take off elevations.

[LWTCS]

In my thinking what returns must be at least single distilled. Otherwise an inverse situation - temperature wise - would establish, which would basically hinder (or rather: exclude) vapors traveling up. I'd say a perfectly tuned column in terms of performance, desired abv, reflux ratio, etc. SHOULD return what's only single distilled in terms of abv. If the column returns higher proof than single distilled, it isn't working optimally and creating inefficiencies.

Regards, Odin.

Odin, if the column returns a single distilation abv I think it would starve. to me googe's number of 30% is more acceptable because the way a column enrich a charge must means that a smaller % is returned than enters.

reading LWTCS comment on the sight glass in the thumper to be able to draw poroduct before return to keep efficiency high I reluctantly agree that alchohol is returned to the pot during a reflux run.

A 4 plate column running very high RR is not the same as , say, a 20 plater with low RR with respect to what gets returned to the kettle as column bottoms.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

regret.jpg (20.61 KiB) Viewed 4389 times

[The Baker]

Thanks, LWTCS.
I have saved your comments at the very top of the Distilling section of my notes; and if I ever do get a plated still (and before I actually set it up) I will perhaps try to understand this better and then ask you for more help and information.
Geoff

[RockinRockies]

I seem to have tails through my whole run, or at least in my interpretation, running 3 bubble plates, that grungy tails-y flavor somehow pollutes my entire run. Even with all plates loaded. Maybe scrubbers will produce a cleaner product but so far, I'm not pleased with my flute, to the point I'm going back to strips and spirits

[Chauncey]

old thread but regarding the OP, often times the outside of the still is hot enough to boil most alc in a droplet on the outside but not the higher BP stuff as quickly. it also depends on the time its been running down the metal.

my old copper still, which had earned the name "paste mountain" because of the number of places that had to be patched on it, if not done right would leak at the bottom of the at the bottom of the cone/top of the main barrel. the "cape" if you will. not cap.

well those leaks would taste different the further down they made it and would only go so far until totally gone. about 8 inches was the longest they made it down toward the bottom. they also could be longer at the end of the run.

they would leave a stain in the patina so i was able to observe this

[Chauncey]

I seem to have tails through my whole run, or at least in my interpretation, running 3 bubble plates, that grungy tails-y flavor somehow pollutes my entire run. Even with all plates loaded. Maybe scrubbers will produce a cleaner product but so far, I'm not pleased with my flute, to the point I'm going back to strips and spirits

if you search there are several flute/reflux operation threads that have come up fairly recently.

[NZChris]

I seem to have tails through my whole run, or at least in my interpretation, running 3 bubble plates, that grungy tails-y flavor somehow pollutes my entire run. Even with all plates loaded. Maybe scrubbers will produce a cleaner product but so far, I'm not pleased with my flute, to the point I'm going back to strips and spirits

Is the smell evident in the wash? An ingredient? Sulfides that are not being removed in the boiler and riser due to a lack of copper?

[RockinRockies]

The column is 100% copper, except site glass. Not evident in wash

[Yummyrum]

I seem to have tails through my whole run, or at least in my interpretation, running 3 bubble plates, that grungy tails-y flavor somehow pollutes my entire run. Even with all plates loaded. Maybe scrubbers will produce a cleaner product but so far, I'm not pleased with my flute, to the point I'm going back to strips and spirits

That sounds like a classic case if running too much power to the boiler .
Crank the power down . 2.5kw to 3kw should get you in the happy zone ….. iff’n you are running a 4” …. and stop those tails dragging through . The higher you run it , the more tails you’ll push

[Saltbush Bill]

I seem to have tails through my whole run, or at least in my interpretation, running 3 bubble plates, that grungy tails-y flavor somehow pollutes my entire run. Even with all plates loaded.

Yummy jumped in right before me, I'll almost guarantee its not the stills fault.........your either using to much power to the boiler.....or taking to much product to fast...........not enough reflux...........pretty much the last two mentioned are one and the same.
How many litres an hour you pulling of that thing?

[RockinRockies]

We are running an 8" column with 3) 5500 watt elements each at 6/10 power to load the plates. and bluefin already said we're not using enough power based on our production rates, which is a quart every 5-6 minutes. Plates are loaded and still appears to be at good equilibrium. I can't go with a bigger boiler even though life would be easier that way because I'll get shellacked on here. I got the column for basically free so that's what I'm using. We're gonna strip and spirit for now and see the difference