Let's talk Foreshots

[cayars]

This came up in another thread and I didn't want pollute that thread with additional conversation, so I thought I'd start a new topic to discuss it.

I'd like to hear how others handle foreshots compared to how I do them. I'll state up front that I don't take foreshots for safety reasons but for taste reasons. I don't think we'll ever get high enough concentration of methanol or other bad stuff to worry about. I do this just to remove what I consider "offensive nasty stuff" to lesson chance of hang-overs and to produce better tasting spirits in the short term.

Not that it matters to this thread but I continuously recycle feints into the next batch I run. I also use backset/dunder for grain & rum washes. I find this helps to keep flavors more consistent batch to batch.

What I do is simple. I take the first 50 mL of every run (per 5 gallon boiler) and dump it. Doesn't matter if it's a spirit run or strip run I dump 50 mL per run on a pot still per 5 gallon boiler size. On a reflux you can condense vapors so I'll say this conversation applies to pot still for the most part. So if I run the stove top 5 gallon still, I take 50 mL and dump it. If running the keg still I'll dump 150 mL per run.

This is for sugar and grain washes. For fruit or vegetable based ferments I'll take a bit larger foreshot. These contain higher levels of pentosans and pectins than grains and generally produce higher levels of methanol.

Here is an interesting article on foreshots, commercial distilleries and some very basic chemistry thrown in: https://www.whiskyandwisdom.com/bringin ... foreshots/

By constantly removing 50 mL on every run I find my heads in general more tolerable for use and I've been using more of them in my cuts.

In the future I may up this from 50 mL to 100 mL just as an experiment on some different ferments to see what the end results are. I don't want to remove all the "nasty stuff" as some of this develops over time when aging into character. It's finding the sweet spot for home distilling that interests me when we might only ever plan on 2 years or so of aging on wood.

So how do others handle foreshots? Anyone done any experiments on taking different size foreshots and compared to finish products when recycling feints?

Carlo

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

I haven't taken foreshots in years now. What's 50ml or 100ml, when im throwing at least the first liter away, anyway? In 200ml jar increments... the first jar, or 5, never make it close to my cup anyway. It all goes into the fire starter jug.

[Durhommer]

the fire starter jug lol i have a few quarts of fores or firestarter

[DSmith78]

Yep, mine all go into the "heh heh - stand WAY back and watch this kids" jar.

[pope]

I have been not taking fores except on a spirit run where I flat out toss the first 200ml. The rest of the feints recycle but my plan is to eventually toss the heads and keep the tails after several generations... I just never get there. Instead I tend to do recipe-specific feints runs in a mini still to blend into the original batch, or just to keep by itself to keep my shop tidy. I tend to always make a new recipe of xyz so having tons of feints jugs around would get in the way. BUT I have been thinking I want to do more with Fischer Speier esterification on washes/mashes which would leave me with slowly heating stripping runs anyway, a great scenario to bleed off a fairly concentrated fores shot (maybe 50ml per 20L like you). Plus I have been thinking lately I don’t even want fores to exist in my spirit runs since it’s the worst bag of nasties to smear over anything I might want to keep. Like you said, your heads are cleaner taking fores off the strip. Have you noticed you make wider cuts towards the heads? Or have you always done it this way?

[bluefish_dist]

I tried recycling heads early in the game and my take away was they just come over again in a larger heads cut. I tossed them all and just recycled the tails.

[Durhommer]

Yep, mine all go into the "heh heh - stand WAY back and watch this kids" jar.

my boys love it when i tell em hey get me a jar with the skull and bones on it it makes the firepit go ten feet tall

[Expat]

For me, nothing goes down the drain.

Fores(50ml/5 gallons) go into a separate container, which I later use as a sacrificial run and/or refluxed into cleaning solution.

Heads/Tails are carried forward to the next run, with the deep heads/tails being pulled away to the feints jug. When the feints jug is full, it's refluxed for neutral. Any leftovers, go into the feints jar.

Waste not want not.

[cayars]

I haven't taken foreshots in years now. What's 50ml or 100ml, when im throwing at least the first liter away, anyway? In 200ml jar increments... the first jar, or 5, never make it close to my cup anyway. It all goes into the fire starter jug.

Damn you throw the first liter away and never recycle? Are we talking pot still here? If so you're throwing good alcohol away IMHO.

Like you said, your heads are cleaner taking fores off the strip. Have you noticed you make wider cuts towards the heads? Or have you always done it this way?

Yes I do get wider cuts doing this which is why I do it. Plus since I recycle feints from batch to batch I want to carry over the flavor but not the nasty crap that comes out first.

I leave 1/3 head space in my boiler and I drip slow starting all runs to consolidate the foreshots. Like I mentioned I might start going to 100 mL dump and see what this does to overall cuts and taste.

I tried recycling heads early in the game and my take away was they just come over again in a larger heads cut. I tossed them all and just recycled the tails.

Is this on a pot still bluefish? There should be enough smearing that there is always good alcohol worth recovering.
Maybe try saving your heads separately and trying a Queens Share run on only the heads at a slow rate.
Do you include any heads in your product when aging? I find I need some heads and some tails for good tasting spirits that get aged with wood.

Yep, mine all go into the "heh heh - stand WAY back and watch this kids" jar.

my boys love it when i tell em hey get me a jar with the skull and bones on it it makes the fire pit go ten feet tall

Not only does my son love this but so does his dad and grand pop. It's always fun to see who grabs a dump jar first when we do fires in the back yard fire pit. But they get used for cleaning and other non drinking purposes as well. I never dump them in the drain but recycle the foreshots for some other purpose.

[pope]

I leave 1/3 head space in my boiler and I drip slow starting all runs to consolidate the foreshots. Like I mentioned I might start going to 100 mL dump and see what this does to overall cuts and taste.

Does the head space make a difference? Certainly more vapor can accumulate before it hits the condenser, maybe that's been covered on the forum and I missed it. I'd always only left head space if I expected puking and since I've been steam stripping flour mashes on the grain I haven't had that issue.

I think 100 mL of dump would be fine too... eventually getting much out of that extra 50mL is still likely akin to squeezing water out of stones. I think I'm going to have a go on my next set of stripping runs and tidy up my low wines like this.

[cayars]

Yes head space makes a difference. Even more so if you have a thumper as you have back pressure holding vapors back to allow them to compress.
Head space is hardly ever talked about. I only recall Mars and myself mentioning it but maybe I just haven't noticed others mentioning it.

That's my thinking with the 100 mL as well which is in part why I started this thread. Get people thinking about it.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Damn you throw the first liter away and never recycle? Are we talking pot still here? If so you're throwing good alcohol away IMHO.

Been doing this a while and I've never looked back with a quality product in my hand and wish I had a little more, but less quality product, in the glass. Yes, I can come away with 2 gallons to drink from a 50 gallon wash, and it stings a bit. But I've had others' drink where they brag about 5 gallons to drink from a 50 gal wash and wondered 'why even bother'?

I used to save fients forever and then do a single run. They were very nice runs, but now I'm to the point where I'll just throw down another wash. So much work to keep up with feints. I'll keep my tails, but heads and just not worth it.

[cayars]

Just did a rough calculation and with a 50 gallon mash (after lauter) I'd normally end up with about 3.2 to 3.4 gallons after cuts, ready for wood and aging. It's going to have some heads and some tails which I want for the flavors they will develop. 2 gallons to me sounds more like a strict hearts cut that will be more one dimensional and not as full bodied after aging. At least that's what I've found over the years. Aged heart cuts taste thin to me and far less complex.

A lot of chemistry happens during barrel aging and to develop deep flavors you need some heads and tails to achieve that.

Beside the wider cut into heads and tails, I also dive down deep into tails for the sweet water that I often use to proof down for wood aging vs using water if possible. I find this tastes much more interesting than clean heart cuts.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

I do something very similar to what you do cayars.

I believe both Whiskies and Rums benefit from a collective of oils spilling over into the hearts from an abundance of tails.

I almost always toss a quart of heads on spirit runs then all the remaining feints go into future spirit runs.
Often those feints mellow out into something with good flavor and better alcohol. Plus I figure, if i toss a quart of heads ever time, that should prevent an abundance of heads over populating my runs. This method has served me well for about 3 years now. I dont see any reason to change it. The way I figure it, is if I never intended on recycling the first quart (sometimes 2 if the heads are particularly strong), then making a forest cut is just an effort in futility.

I would probably save feints and collect them just to do a feints only run, but I dont really have the glasswear and storage space to do so.

Some experimentation I like to do when I have the time, materials, and space. When I have several gallons of feints (or even low wines) I like to mix them with the acidic backset and let em sit for a couple weeks.
The acids and ethanol react to make wonderful esters. If the backset was old and has a little mold on it, it's even better. Some of the best runs I have ever made come from this combination.

[cayars]

In a pot still doing it the way, I never discarded any heads or tails but recycle (what didn't make my cut) them and have never had a build up per say.
That article I linked to seems to indicate the same thing that you will not get a build up of heads either by recycling them.

This is for a pot still and not reflux still just to be clear. When doing reflux runs I do things differently but don't want to cloud this thread with reflux talk.

I've played a bit with what you mention mixing backset with feints and have gotten some interesting results. I need to play more in this area. So many things on my "todo list".

[pope]

I just ran long and got my first sweetwater cut and was disappointed that after my cuts I was already at 60% and had no need for it. Agreed that you kind of want a funky white dog as it will come around - there's lots of charcoal in those barrels/oak cubes too, which will soak up some of your flavor along with some of the bad. As my process evolves and I've slowed down my collection rate, I find I can reach further into my feints ends, particularly tails, and get some richness in the final product. No my interest is piqued in getting an ex-fores set of low wines to do a spirit run. Good news is if I'm leaving head space I'll get there in fewer stripping runs!

It may be that what you discard is enough so that you keep compressing any buildup against those fores and tossing them all out.

And Hillbilly Popstar, the amount of glass it takes to keep all the aging experiments, feints, and low wines separate is insane. I'd try mixing backset but I steam strip much of my ferments and go deep into tails, so my low wines can't be diluted at all without lowering my abv below aging strength. But I hear great things about blending backset into the low wines and even treating it with sulfuric acid to catalyze that alcohol-ester reactivity you mention, but that's a tangent for another thread.

[bluefish_dist]

Asked above, did I run a pot still? No my experience is with a flue. My heads cut ended up right about 25% of the run. Did about 150 runs over 2 years while commercial. I could locate the heads cut within a jar just by volume.

Barrel aged did get slightly wider cuts and lower abv off the still. I would also go deeper into the tails for barrel product. I wasn’t aging for years and needed a product that would mature in 6-9 months.

[cayars]

That's my problem with experimentation. I have to have 50 jars of different things being tested that I'm tracking in a spread sheet.
I've got spare quart jars to play with but not a lot 5 liter to 5 gallon carboys that I'm using for experimentation. What I've got free I need now for production.

pope you are correct about the head space and speed used for doing spirit runs. It makes a difference. I also start strip runs slow until I dump the foreshots then I crank it up and run it faster.

If you have spare jars hold on to the sweetwater for another batch. You don't need to grab it every time as you just found out. But this way when you need it you'll have a jar or two on hand. BTW, don't bother trying to throw the sweetwater on oak. It just makes oak soup.

[cayars]

Asked above, did I run a pot still? No my experience is with a flue. My heads cut ended up right about 25% of the run. Did about 150 runs over 2 years while commercial. I could locate the heads cut within a jar just by volume.

Barrel aged did get slightly wider cuts and lower abv off the still. I would also go deeper into the tails for barrel product. I wasn’t aging for years and needed a product that would mature in 6-9 months.

I had a feeling you weren't talking about a pot still. Higher end flutes and reflux stills will be different than a pot still as talked about here for foreshot and feint reuse.

Curious, could you tell just by output proof on batches you ran when hearts and tails were kicking in as well as by volume?

[Hillbilly Popstar]

In a pot still doing it the way, I never discarded any heads or tails but recycle (what didn't make my cut) them and have never had a build up per say.
That article I linked to seems to indicate the same thing that you will not get a build up of heads either by recycling them.

This is for a pot still and not reflux still just to be clear. When doing reflux runs I do things differently but don't want to cloud this thread with reflux talk.

I've played a bit with what you mention mixing backset with feints and have gotten some interesting results. I need to play more in this area. So many things on my "todo list".

I run a pot still with no thumper.

In my experience, when I dont discard heads and recycle them into my next run, I get more heads, or I get more smearing of heads into my hearts.
I always collect jars in 5 rows.
1st row are jars I know for sure are heads.
2nd row is transition 1, in which the overwhelming heads aroma is almost gone and the hearts flavor start to come over, but the distillate still burns in the mouth and numbs the gums.
3rd row is when the mouth burn goes away and the velvety mouth feel of hearts comes over.
4th row is usually still hearts, but the wet paper taste subtlety starts to make an appearance.
5th row is when I can smell the tails and it runs on down to the sweet water.

My cuts are almost always made somewhere in rows 2 and 4.

In my experience when I recycle a ton of heads back into a spirit run, the 2nd row of jars, where the heads and hearts smear together, seems to go on forever and I get less of the good heart of hearts jars.



What does have me intrigued is the idea of having head space during a spirit run. Dont know that I've tried that, but it would seem that giving the steam more room to collect and make a dense vapor (and possibly separate out by carrying weights?) would give the boiler more time to create a more consistent temp throughout the boiler charge and thus cause less smearing.
So on and 8 gallon pot still, what would you recommend be the maximum load volume?

[shadylane]

give the boiler more time to create a more consistent temp throughout the boiler charge and thus cause less smearing.

Works a charm while also equalizing a column during 100% reflux
Let's Ya use a column to remove the drip-drip nasties at the beginning of all grain stripping runs

[OtisT]

When pot stilling, I like to draw foreshots slowly on the spirit run and condense them into the first 100 ml on a 12 gallon charge. If I’m making a neutral I sometimes pull foreshots on a strip too. I just don’t like smelling acetone anywhere near my late heads jars and the extra 30 minutes it takes to condense foreshots does not bother me at all.

As for recycling, I played with that a lot for a few years. Now, I may save some late heads and some early tails for recycling into the next run but that is about it. The rest is tossed unless I am topping off my jar of cleaning fluid.

Otis

[cayars]

Hillbilly Popstar
Here's a couple of observations I'd make.
Unless you are mixing some water in with your hearts to dilute it before tasting it should burn fresh off the still. Hearts are typically going to be 80% to 65% ABV give or take (could be as low at 55%) but that's really strong ABV and would "burn" for most people no matter how clean it is. 130 to 160 proof is strong for sipping especially raw spirits IMHO. If you don't dilute it you will blow out your pallet quick making cuts by taste unreliable fresh off the still. So when you say the end of Heads/Beginning of hearts burns your mouth I'd agree it does and should! You've been around for a long time and I'm sure you know this but just wondering if you do mix with water or just brave it at the stronger ABV when doing cuts after airing out? Is it a "taste" like a drop or two on a finger or a spoon full?

I know some people can do cuts at high ABV, but I'm not one of them. I can do a couple "tastes" at high ABV but it blows my pallet quickly. So I'll use a straw and grab a small sample and mix with equal parts water into a shot glass then get a small sip of that. That way I'm not killing myself with anything over 40% ABV. When I do cuts I'm already collected my center section into a large collection jar and only need to check my tertiary jars. I'll do tails side first which are already low in ABV, then do the heads side last.

Keep in mind what I do concerning foreshots. I discard a portion during each strip run as well as spirit run and have found those early bits are the real nasties of the bunch. I've actually just started to up the portion today that I discard from 50 mL to 100 mL. By discarding even 50 mL from every run you would be surprised how much of the acetone type smells are removed.

You mention recycling "a ton of heads" but I don't recycle a ton but only the heads from the previous run. I don't let them build up. If you think the heads build up doing it my way maybe try and take a large foreshot like 200 mL and discard that. That will help you to cut down on overall heads in a controlled manner always taking the most nasty out on each run.

What you mention with your 5 rows is very similar to what I see even when re-running feints. Roughly speaking I'll have 20% of heads I don't use. 20% of tails I don't use and 60% of the middle I do use. The heads/tails get recycled. That middle section will have late heads, hearts and early tails. So I'd likely use all of rows 2 - 4 when aging. I'll do a smell/taste test of other heads and tails jars to see if anything is useful before committing the cuts.

With the 8 gallon boiler I'd do roughly 2/3 full or 5.25 gallons of liquid. I don't measure or anything just eyeball 2/3 full and call it good enough. I think I started doing this early when I had some issues with 100% rye which liked to puke. I started running "slower and lower" with rye and then tried it the same with other grains and have stuck with it. Occasionally I'll try something else but keep going back to "slower and lower" because it works for me on my stills. I get better separation and control that way. I think the head space works even better with the use of a thumper as you get back pressure which helps with vapor compaction as well. I do the same with or without the thumper however, just works a bit better with the thumper.

[cayars]

I'd love to run an experiment with a few other people who have a lot of pot stilling experience and semi-set in their ways.

Basically we could take what I mentioned and we'll crank it up a bit. For example many people here don't recycle the heads because they think they become greater over time (which could be true based on the present run technique).

So what I'd say we can try as as group is discard 200 mL per 5 gallon on every run. Start every run slow until you get the 200 mL then run at your normal speed after that. So that means if you do 3 strip runs you've discarded the first 200 mL of each run for a total of 600 mL of the first nasty stuff coming off the still. Then on the spirit run discard another 200 mL. So at that point 800 mL have been discarded or set aside.

Heads overall will be more clean since we've pulled the most nasty stuff out. Try this over 3 or 4 generations. Then lets see if heads is increasing or not. I think they will be much more worth the recycle effort as the most nasty stuff is constantly being pulled off on each run.

As Hillbilly laid out in his 5 rows we would likely be throwing out jars 1 or 2 but may be able to collect the last jar of row 1 by doing this getting us/you a slightly larger cut overall. A jar here or there adds up over time!

It could be we only need 100 mL discards or 300 mL discards as a group but I'd love to get some feedback. I've had good luck at 50 mL but think 100 mL would be better and maybe 200 mL could be ever better.

I don't think anyone who has posted has made any claim to using the 1st or 2nd jar ever so they would seem safe to discard but my way we discard on every run which should always be the most nasty of each run (strip or spirit). When run slow to start it compacts ever more.

Anyone game to try it?

Carlo

[acfixer69]

Getting all this excited about foreshots is ass do the right thing that you feel with them

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Hillbilly Popstar
Here's a couple of observations I'd make.
Unless you are mixing some water in with your hearts to dilute it before tasting it should burn fresh off the still. Hearts are typically going to be 80% to 65% ABV give or take (could be as low at 55%) but that's really strong ABV and would "burn" for most people no matter how clean it is. 130 to 160 proof is strong for sipping especially raw spirits IMHO. If you don't dilute it you will blow out your pallet quick making cuts by taste unreliable fresh off the still. So when you say the end of Heads/Beginning of hearts burns your mouth I'd agree it does and should! You've been around for a long time and I'm sure you know this but just wondering if you do mix with water or just brave it at the stronger ABV when doing cuts after airing out? Is it a "taste" like a drop or two on a finger or a spoon full?

I know some people can do cuts at high ABV, but I'm not one of them. I can do a couple "tastes" at high ABV but it blows my pallet quickly. So I'll use a straw and grab a small sample and mix with equal parts water into a shot glass then get a small sip of that. That way I'm not killing myself with anything over 40% ABV. When I do cuts I'm already collected my center section into a large collection jar and only need to check my tertiary jars. I'll do tails side first which are already low in ABV, then do the heads side last.

Keep in mind what I do concerning foreshots. I discard a portion during each strip run as well as spirit run and have found those early bits are the real nasties of the bunch. I've actually just started to up the portion today that I discard from 50 mL to 100 mL. By discarding even 50 mL from every run you would be surprised how much of the acetone type smells are removed.

You mention recycling "a ton of heads" but I don't recycle a ton but only the heads from the previous run. I don't let them build up. If you think the heads build up doing it my way maybe try and take a large foreshot like 200 mL and discard that. That will help you to cut down on overall heads in a controlled manner always taking the most nasty out on each run.

What you mention with your 5 rows is very similar to what I see even when re-running feints. Roughly speaking I'll have 20% of heads I don't use. 20% of tails I don't use and 60% of the middle I do use. The heads/tails get recycled. That middle section will have late heads, hearts and early tails. So I'd likely use all of rows 2 - 4 when aging. I'll do a smell/taste test of other heads and tails jars to see if anything is useful before committing the cuts.

With the 8 gallon boiler I'd do roughly 2/3 full or 5.25 gallons of liquid. I don't measure or anything just eyeball 2/3 full and call it good enough. I think I started doing this early when I had some issues with 100% rye which liked to puke. I started running "slower and lower" with rye and then tried it the same with other grains and have stuck with it. Occasionally I'll try something else but keep going back to "slower and lower" because it works for me on my stills. I get better separation and control that way. I think the head space works even better with the use of a thumper as you get back pressure which helps with vapor compaction as well. I do the same with or without the thumper however, just works a bit better with the thumper.

So I used to dilute to make cuts. I dont so much any more. I quickly learned what I was looking for in the recipes I frequent.
My fores usually come over around 155-165, so by the time in in the hearts I'm downt o around 130-140 proof, which is tolerable. Granted that is still hot enough to burn, there us a clear difference between the way heads burn and the way hearts burn.
Heads feel like a chemical burn and will make all your mouth tissue go numb. Heads, even when diluted will still have this effect. In my experience hearts only burn most once you swallow. But even when hearts are high proof, of course they will still burn, but it's different. Not really sure how else to describe it.

Your cuts sound similar to mine. I usually net anywhere from 1/2-2/3 of my total collect.

[cayars]

Hillbilly Popstar,
This is interesting. You mention 155-165 proof for your fores which would be 77.5-82.5 ABV for fores.
I never bother to calculate the ABV of my fores as I just discard X portion but I find that on "average" my heads go to about 80 ABV then hearts start (give or take a pint).

I generally find hearts to be in the range of 80% ABV to a solid 65% ABV for almost any grain and 60% for malts, sometimes as low as 55% ABV. We may not be far off from each other as I normally will take any grain to 65% and always include it which would be your 130 proof. I run slow on strip runs so I wouldn't be surprised if my 130 proof is better than someone who runs faster and cuts at 140 proof. This makes sense. This is for aging on oak and not sipping off the still but your numbers aren't far off if any from mine and actually very close.

I think "burn" is subjective. For example, I can drink multiple shots of 190 proof and know it burns (bad) but can drink shot after shot as stupid as that is. Get lit up quick as well!!! I can eat the hottest of peppers like any Carolina Reapers (the whole pepper including seeds). But I can't really taste anything after either of those events as my pallet is shot. I used to be able to walk into the changing room for my kids while eating, take a bit change green diapers, take a bite and clean up the kids. My wife would gag all over the place especially that I could eat while changing the kids.

Some of us just aren't bothered by certain smells. Some of us can tolerate HOT but may not be able to "taste" afterward.

I myself don't find a different burn between heads and hearts. For me "burn" is a matter of ABV and nothing else. Rye is spicy to me for example but not "burn" tasting. Heads diluted to 40% don't burn anymore than heads diluted to 40% IMHO on my runs. Fresh off the still heads are stronger ABV % wise so they should burn more than hearts but they should both burn fresh off the still. Frankly there isn't much difference in say 170 proof and 160 proof burn wise as they are both flame throwers! Now tasting and comparing similar 80 to 86 proof whiskeys some "burn" more than others OR some haven't aged properly compared to others based on the cuts made!

I find that until I knock down the samples to a reasonable drinking volume like 40% it's meaningless IMHO. One or two tastes at high ABV and my pallet is shot. Sure I can continue to taste it to the cows come home but can I taste differences? Nope. not really.

So after mixing to 40% or so I don't worry about burn, but taste and impurities. Acetone type smells and tastes are easy to identify which are characteristic of heads. Some heads past the acetone stage, have strong flavors which I want to boost my cut profile as I know from experience will turn out delicious.

As different as some of our characteristics sound we do generally agree on collected amount. I usually end up using close to 2/3 of each run. Maybe slightly less but close to 2/3.

The way we describe or perceive things is probably more different than overall process which I find fascinating!
This is the type of thing I enjoy discussing but it would be so much easier if we were all sitting in the same room, tasting the same spirit giving our impressions!!!

Carlo

PS I'm enjoying the thread thus far.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Good talk for sure.

Know, that I limit tastings.
Usually when I taste it's a 1/2 tsp at best, and then still, I only taste when I notice the aroma making certain changes I am looking for.
I even allow the distillate to drip over my finger and run it in my hands and clap, then cup my hands over my nose and mouth.

So the burn for me is different. I have notice that if I sample two samples of the same proof, one being heads and the other being hearts, one can burn my mouth like chemicals and the other feel smooth as velvet. I particularly notice it, if I swish it around in my mouth, the heads will make my whole inner cheek just go numb. When this happens I usually wont even swallow. I just spit and take a few swigs of water.

For me 2/3rds is a rather generous cut. If I get a keep cut that large, it's usually cause I had an extremely healthy ferment (if it's a gumballhead) or it was an all grain, or it's intended for aging for a longer period of time.
Anytime i make a sugar head or make a cut intended to be drank white or to impress friend on short notice, my keep cut is probably closer to a third.

[6 Row Joe]

You guys with your big pots and runs are an interesting read. My little 3 gallon works good but I don't get too much of each cut at a time. I toss the fores. I don't need finger nail polish remover. I have been splitting the heads and blending some late heads with the hearts. The first part of the heads are hot and go in the feints jar. Keep the hearts of course and run the tails down to 20% or so and those go in the feints jar. I saved feints and did a all feints run. That was good stuff.

[pope]

Carlo I like your toss 200mL idea! Another way I’ve been thinking about pot distilling is to run my flute just for fores and to run esterification at a higher temp pre-fores extraction, then drain the dephleg and run in pot still mode. I’m still welding on my dephleg so it’s just an idea for now. Obviously the volume of such a cut might be a bit different, but I think that might really clean things up for the spirit run.

Re: all the cuts talk, my 2¢ Is that I use a spoon, double or triple the volume of heads with water (dropper), double hearts, and just dilute a little with tails. Some heads can be stong enough in my experience that undiluted they seem smoother than they really are. I also started using a jar ‘spittoon’ for every taste and rinsing my mouth repeatedly. Used to be even small amounts swallowed would dull my senses by the time I needed them most at the all-important transition points on either end. I also like to taste all the hearts jars just to get a sense of their evolution, even if I know they’re all going in.

For the expansion of heads in recycling, while I theorize recycling on a commercial level, without really repeating recipes at all I just do feints runs but I certainly see a lot of recovery there, so it makes sense to me to think you would see that recovery in a regular spirit run with feints added. Maybe ‘bleeding off’ the heads with a generous fores cut as Carlo suggested is key to better feints recovery. Volume aside my feeling is there’s just more flavor/character to be extracted from the feints which is why I care most about reprocessing. Anyway I don’t have enough experience with it to speak from that but I’m sure there are others on here with much greater volumes of feints recycling under their belts. Also am enjoying this thread.