The Whiskey Critic Thread

[Dan Call]

Okay guys...it's quite obvious that we can whip the pants off of a commercial distillery with what we make at home....that's not even an issue. What's more....I'm going to take a liking to my sugar vodka as much because I made it myself as because of any taste considerations. My observation is that most folks here don't give have any truck with commercial beverages, and with good reason. Well....we can learn alot from discussing the characteristics of commercial spirits and if nothing else it can provide a point of reference for taste, an index of sorts.

I'm starting this thread in order to generate discussion on taste comparisons between commercially available stuff and our stuff we make at home, we have to have some accessible benchmark by which to do so. And I'll start with a very specific observation.

Being a fan of the ultra premium Bourbons like Pappy Van Winkle and Bookers, I've often wondered what an aged sugar based spirit would taste like. I've oaked some of my own corn/sugar UJSM type stuff with rather, uh......interesting results, but we all know it doesn't doesn't precisely duplicate the characteristics of barrel aging. On the other hand I'm not sure my pallete could tell the difference anyway!!

I've been investigating Rums lately.....Bacardi seems to be truly miserable stuff....there's nothing right about the taste at all except that caramel/butter flavor in the nose and on the front of the tongue that seems to fade all-too-quickly. On the other hand...it seems to have too much of everything, sometimes I taste too many heads, sometimes too many tails, mostly too many tails, like thin and insipid. Then they cover it up with space and some aging. I do not like Bacardi Gold, so maybe some taste comments on Bacardi are in order.

I tried Myer's Dark Rum. It's supposed to be 100% Jamaican pot-stilled rum, and aged in white oak barrels, it's a dark run. Apparently it's "blended" in a series of mixtures in which some of the blend comes from casks that have aged for over 40 years.......not sure I buy that one.

Well....the oakiness/smokiness on the Myer's Dark definitely slaps you in the face, much like a highly aged Bourbon, like more than 10 years. The distinctive part is how clearly the alchohol taste comes out, unlike the grain smoothness of bourbons, the aged rum still just clearly says...."Hey...here's the pure alchohol part." The in-between is interesting though, kind've leathery, thick, smoky, chocolately, somewhat complex. It's got to be the cask characteristics overshadowing the distillate characteristics because the buttery thing expected in rum is mostly subdued. But I must say that the fuzzy whang of fusels is not nearl as strong. Maybe this stuff really IS pot stilled. I'd like to find some rum that is 100% pot stilled and see what that tasted like.

[I-GOR]

I'm starting this thread in order to generate discussion on taste comparisons between commercially available stuff and our stuff we make at home,

Great idea! I've been waiting for someone to start a thread like this (unless there's already a thread like this and it died of loneliness). Maybe along the lines of "What did you Drink and how did it Taste?" Perhaps it should be moved to the Flavoring and Aging page.

Starter.... Skyy Vodka. Here at the Warshington State liquor store (all spirits can only be bought at the WSLCB stores) $20 for a pretty blue 750ml bottle. To me, it's all heads. If I had made something that tasted like that I would've soaped it down and ran it again. Had a belt before bed, had a headache when I got up. (I didn't buy it, it was given to me)

Pendleton a "Canadian" style whiskey by Hood River Distillery in Oregon $20 for a 750ml. Really smooth, does taste like canadian whiskey and not bourbon, a little too light on the grain flavor, oak seems to be the major flavor component on the finish but is not the heavy buttery coconut flavor I often taste in American whiskey.

Been drinking I-gor's tipple lately. Kinduv a mash / UJSM style hybrid. 25% Malt barley, 75 crack corn, cooked to convert, then added sugar and a dollop of molasses, distiller's yeast. combined singlin run with final run on wash. Aged about 2 mo's on toasted oak fingers. I found that the corn flavor was strong initially but has really backed off now and the barley and oak comes through. I can tell that I kept to much heads (dang!).
Flavor profile: Not as smooth at first as I wished it was (owin to the heads), but smoother than most on the market, dry grain-barley up front, rounding out to some fresh corn, lastly, oak is startin to pick up the nice vanilla / carmel / butter tones. It's really great on ice with a splash of fresh apple cider!

[Dan Call]

I completely agree on that Skye stuff..very cool bottle....I was expecting a really super clean deal there, I actually saw the distillery "tour" thing on discover channel. It's grain based vodka ran through multiple continuous collumn distillations. I think it's on youtube somewhere. Well...here again.....continuous collumn distillation in big operations show once again that the emphasis is on quantity rather than quality. But Skye is also ran through a very cutting edge carbon filtration system, and STILL gets stuff this crappy? Made in Illinois, and 'cellulose' filtering.....wonder what it's supposed to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUEoMwT7 ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Skyy is covered at 8:26 on.

Good comments on that I-Gor, I remembered my experience with it after reading yours. These are just the sorts of trading notes and discussions I was hoping to see. The main reason being is that I know there are some very well trained pallates on here that can give us all pointers and what we're getting with various commercials spirits and how drastically they can differ with what we make in small controlled batches, and, some larger basis of comparison. Thanks much.

[muckanic]

I tried Myer's Dark Rum. It's supposed to be 100% Jamaican pot-stilled rum, and aged in white oak barrels, it's a dark run. Apparently it's "blended" in a series of mixtures in which some of the blend comes from casks that have aged for over 40 years.......not sure I buy that one.

Well....the oakiness/smokiness on the Myer's Dark definitely slaps you in the face, much like a highly aged Bourbon, like more than 10 years. The distinctive part is how clearly the alchohol taste comes out, unlike the grain smoothness of bourbons, the aged rum still just clearly says...."Hey...here's the pure alchohol part." The in-between is interesting though, kind've leathery, thick, smoky, chocolately, somewhat complex. It's got to be the cask characteristics overshadowing the distillate characteristics because the buttery thing expected in rum is mostly subdued. But I must say that the fuzzy whang of fusels is not nearl as strong. Maybe this stuff really IS pot stilled. I'd like to find some rum that is 100% pot stilled and see what that tasted like.

<flame suit> Folks get too hung-up on the method of distillation IMHO. The pot vs column debate is a little tired, whereas it would seem that the really nasty stuff comes out of continuous stills, combined with sloppy post-processing. I like the heaviness of Myers, and regard it as excellent value for the price-point. </flame suit> That alcohol sensation you mention is just what you would expect from a blend of old and new. Here in Oz, our dark rum market is so dominated by Bundaberg that I assume they must be cutting corners somewhere to keep production up. Inner Circle has recently emerged as a new competitor, and trumpets the fact that it is batch-distilled (whether pot or column I do not know). Without having performed a side-by-side comparison, I would say there is not much in it between the two. So there is some more evidence that the method of distillation is not the whole story, and that the flavouring/aging technique could be at least as important. We are kind of inhibited in making these comparisons due to the general unavailability of a decent, heavy white rum.

[Dan Call]

Those are good comments.....no need for a flame suit. Hopefully we're secure enough to thoughtfully engage differing viewpoints....isn't that what a forum is for?

I'd agree with you on the pot vs collumn, it appears to me that cask has exceeded fermented substrate with Myers and I do laud it for this complexity that, at points, reminds one of a bourbon aged more than ten years, like Old Rip Van Winkle 15 year old particularly. Again, it just seems like the absence of a "grain character" in the flavor does leave a more raw alchohol flavor in the finish. I understand that "Pusser's" rum is blended in a similar fashion and is supposed to be all pot stilled, I think it's expensive though....anyone had it?

As far as collumn vs pot, it has been discussed to death, and that's with good reason, precisely because of the apparent differences in the final product. But to clarify, when I say collumn, I don't mean a home type collumn reflux, I'm talking about a 4 or 5 story tall continuous plate collumn that uses steam shot up from the bottom with a take off point of the distillate somewhere near the top, condensed, then put through a rectification collumn with the same baffle plate set up only with much smaller diameter holes. They're taking so much off they can't possibly control the quality as well as a home distiller can, despite all the arm waving they do about quality. Perhaps that's why so much emphasis is placed on changing the flavor of the distillate.

I've never heard of some of those rums, it's interesing to hear how they compare to Myers.

[theholymackerel]

I've been drinkin' rye recently:

Sazerac Rye. (6 year old straight rye whiskey), it came highly praised so I had high hopes. 90 proof and surprizin'ly smooth for the strength, but the barrel flavour dominated all else. Not worth the 27$ for the overpowerin' taste of oak.

Jim Beam Rye. I only tried it 'cause it was given to me. Very harsh with definate heads and tails taste. Too sweet. I suspect it's too sweet from all the corn in it. Not a traditional rye by any means, nor a smooth one. Not worth the 15$. I gave it to a friend to take home who liked it.

Old Overholt. (4 year old straight rye whiskey), this is my go-to Rye when I buy a bottle. Rich rye flavour. The rye is the dominant flavour, with a nice mild yet dark barrel flavour underneath. Old Overholt can be hit and miss... some bottles are heavenly nectar, others a bit harsh. A bad bottle is worth the 12$ (often on sale around here for 9$!!!) and a good bottle is an equal to Van Winkle in my opinion.

Next week I'll do Wild Turkey Rye and Van Winkle Rye.

[Dan Call]

The Van Winkle has always been my favorite rye, never liked the Beam either. Beam does all the rye that they sell for the whole year on a single day, if it turns out bad....too bad I guess.

A note on the Van Winkle offerings. Julian III switched all the distilling operations to Buffalo Trace from Lawrenceburg, where he had a small bottle operation but all the distillate was contracted out. The original bottles of 20 and 23 year old "Pappy Van Winkle" that won the 99 score and deemed the best bourbon in the world are long gone and were actually left over from the old Sitzel Weller distillery and were contract distilled by Julian P. Van Winkle Jr., who was, of course, the son of Julian P. Van Winkle Sr., the famous owner of Sitzel-Weller distillery in Louisville, and bottler, but not maker of, "Old Fitzgerald," one of the original wheated bourbons based on an even older W.L. Weller recipe wherein wheat was used instead of Rye. This is the recipe that Maker's Mark is based on, Pappy Van Winkle being the one who gave Bill Samuels Sr. the recipe and yeast. But neither Bill Sr. or Jr. or any of the Van Winkle men actually distilled whiskey, they just 'had it made.' Now...Julian III does have an uncanny ability to select and blend his Van Winkle bourbons and get great results and hang with the best, but he's not a distiller. About the only name you would know from a family that actually has distillers in the family is Beam. There are Beam family members all over the place and they remain masters of the craft as they have been for for almost two-hundred years. Fred Noe, Jim Beams great grandson, is current master distiller at the actual Beam distillery.

[muckanic]

Okay guys...it's quite obvious that we can whip the pants off of a commercial distillery with what we make at home....that's not even an issue.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that's a bit of an inflated claim. Largely because most amateurs do not have the capacity to get into serious barrel aging. Look at how the pricing on the commercial stuff works. If you want that smooth-as-silk-I-can't-believe-I'm drinking-spirits sensation, then it takes 10 years in a barrel and costs at least double what an everyday drop costs. It doesn't seem like there are any shortcuts. I guess I'm mainly referring to Scotch/Irish here, with say Bushmills as an example of something pretty good (although a lot of Irish is arguably a bit light and one-dimensional). I haven't drunk so much aged rum or bourbon, partly because of availability and partly because I tend to mix it with sweet muck anyway. For some reason, I don't have too much interest in brandy.

Maybe a more reasonable claim is that craft amateurs can produce a drop that shows more potential than many commercial examples, in much the same way that big red wines can be evaluated young by predicting how they are likely to turn out, and ignoring selected aspects of harshness. In the majority of cases, however, I would say that most amateur spirits do not ever reach their full potential. This is not to say that they are poorly made, just drunk young. Taking a cue from the wine scene, it could in fact be an argument for not making these spirits too aggressive in the first place.

Now, it seems to be commonly observed around here that the volume producers don't or won't perform cuts properly, and that consequently their product is more headache-inducing than one's own. I get the impression this accusation is mainly levelled at the bourbon guys (?) although I have personally encountered more of this sort of incompetence in the grappa and schnapps area. It is also interesting that wherever you go in the home-produced alcohol forums (including beer and wine), the craft enthusiasts all tend to claim that their own product doesn't give them headaches. Methinks there could be a bit of wish-fulfillment going on here. I'm quite comfortable claiming that my various brews are vastly more interesting than the bland, mass-market stuff, but it would be stretching it to claim that these brews immunise me to the effects of alcohol consumption! And, like I said, we possibly should have the humility to admit that both the wine and spirit producers have generally better aging facilities at their disposal.

[punkin]

Okay guys...it's quite obvious that we can whip the pants off of a commercial distillery with what we make at home....that's not even an issue.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that's a bit of an inflated claim. Largely because most amateurs do not have the capacity to get into serious barrel aging. Look at how the pricing on the commercial stuff works. If you want that smooth-as-silk-I-can't-believe-I'm drinking-spirits sensation, then it takes 10 years in a barrel and costs at least double what an everyday drop costs. It doesn't seem like there are any shortcuts. I guess I'm mainly referring to Scotch/Irish here, with say Bushmills as an example of something pretty good (although a lot of Irish is arguably a bit light and one-dimensional). I haven't drunk so much aged rum or bourbon, partly because of availability and partly because I tend to mix it with sweet muck anyway. For some reason, I don't have too much interest in brandy.

Maybe a more reasonable claim is that craft amateurs can produce a drop that shows more potential than many commercial examples, in much the same way that big red wines can be evaluated young by predicting how they are likely to turn out, and ignoring selected aspects of harshness. In the majority of cases, however, I would say that most amateur spirits do not ever reach their full potential. This is not to say that they are poorly made, just drunk young. Taking a cue from the wine scene, it could in fact be an argument for not making these spirits too aggressive in the first place.

Now, it seems to be commonly observed around here that the volume producers don't or won't perform cuts properly, and that consequently their product is more headache-inducing than one's own. I get the impression this accusation is mainly levelled at the bourbon guys (?) although I have personally encountered more of this sort of incompetence in the grappa and schnapps area. It is also interesting that wherever you go in the home-produced alcohol forums (including beer and wine), the craft enthusiasts all tend to claim that their own product doesn't give them headaches. Methinks there could be a bit of wish-fulfillment going on here. I'm quite comfortable claiming that my various brews are vastly more interesting than the bland, mass-market stuff, but it would be stretching it to claim that these brews immunise me to the effects of alcohol consumption! And, like I said, we possibly should have the humility to admit that both the wine and spirit producers have generally better aging facilities at their disposal.

Well said Muck, i agree with most of what you've said. Especially the stuff about comparing bourbons.
I know i can put my ujsm up against Jim Beam and knock it over for 4 out of 5 people, cause i've done it.

i also know that i can taste a small glass of Blantons and a 3-6 month old ujsm and know where i have some potential to catch easily in a year the smoothness but not draw level with the complexity of the barrell aged good stuff. Then i can taste a small dram of Bookers and my allgrain (again, only a month or two old) and know that i'm in the hunt, but years off being able to compare, and i'm troubled at whether i can acheive the complexity and lasting pallette that is what i'm in it for (with complex reds or whiskeys). And i do believe that you're right in pointing where you are, it's the aging we can't viably replicate (i'm going to though, even if i'm not the one to benefit ).

As far as the hangover goes, i still think we're topping em, not saying it ain't gunna happen if you hit it real hard, but a typical friday night sees me working with grinder and welder on saturday in the shed rather than laying on the lounge. There's just too much anedectol evidence in my circle of aquaintances to dismiss this as phsycological.

[Dan Call]

I'd have to say that saying "whipping the pants off" is a little out there. Irrespective of either hangover or barrel compelxity considerations, these folks around here are very much into what they're doing and meticulous about what happens, even with basic sugar washes and the settling out for clarity of the fermented wash and the taste of the final product. The personal attention and care that is apparent has and will yield interesting results. I wish we could all share the final product and have a yearly tasting. I'd say what people here are getting is easily and favorably comparable to commercially produced stuff, and considering the
very small scale of our production equipment, we do far better on the whole. Hey wait...that's starting to sound like "whipping the pants off of." Okay....in some ways we do. We seem to be a
'get the most out of the least' kinda group, just my type of people. How's that?

I do not, however, think that the Bourbon producers have the most issues with hangover inducing stuff in their distillate. I view the Bourbon producers in Kentucky to be the most skilled of any distillers anywhere in the world with the exception of Scotland and Ireland. There is an astounding concentration of distilling talent, technology, tradition, and lore around this little town in Kentucky called Bardstown. Enough of that, if you get the chance, go see it, it's amazing. It seems to me that the more commercially oriented distillers that produce many many different distillates and brands, like blended whiskies, vodkas, gins, etc, all in the same distillery are the one's that are much less meticulous about the cuts.

I wanted to comment on Bookers. Bookers, to me, is the finest commercially available Bourbon that one can get, and it's unique because it's barrel strength, you cut it with water to taste. It's taste complexity is incredible, sweet, hot, smokey, caramel, it's really rich. The barrels for Booker's were hand selected by Booker Noe, Jim Beam Master Distiller Emeritus who passed in 2004. He bottled the whiskey at barrel strength and gave it to friends for Christmas. It became so desirable that he decided to release it, imagine that. The barrels always came from the 'sweet spot' of the rack house. The sweet spot was usually in the middle. The barrels at the top have more extremes in temperature compared to the bottom floor, apparently the middle one's are just right. How do you duplicate that barrel complexity? Well....you need a 5-10 story rack house with metal sides painted black full of whiskey barrels up on a hill in central kentucky, that's the only way. Anything else is "targeted approximation.'

[punkin]

How do you duplicate that barrel complexity? Well....you need a 5-10 story rack house with metal sides painted black full of whiskey barrels up on a hill in central kentucky, that's the only way. Anything else is "targeted approximation.'

I disagree. I'm not trying to make Bookers. I'm tyring to make Punkin's 'The Buisness'.

I don't need to be in Kentucky or have my barrell house black or any of those other conditions, cause i'm trying to make my own whiskey that is as good or better than the commercial whiskey i can affordably buy. Not the same but better, different but better

I don't want to beat a $1000 bottle of scotch, and i don't wanna replicate a particular bourbon, therefore, i don't have to use the same materials or processes.

But i agree also with most of the rest of what you said, the time and ageing process is irreplaceable.

[Dan Call]

Well.....Punkin....you talked yourself right out of my example. I was sorta saying that these are the precise conditions for Bookers, ergo, that's how you get that barrel complexity, otherwise you don't get that particular barrel complexity, now do you. The assumption was that you are otherwise duplicating the barrel complexity of Booker's. And there seems to be quite a bit of it at that. However...there is a definite smokey flavor in Booker's that you can trace back to plain old Jim Beam white label, it's the same stuff, just the best aged. However, that particular flavor nuance could have as much to do with the yeast strain that yields that particular flavor from the wood. Now I'm getting in over my head, but I can tell that particular flavor thing.

I think it would be cool to have a "personal rack house" in the backyard that was painted black and aging say 80-100 barrels at any one given time. Ah....the blending and testing that would have to be done would be excruciatingly wonderful work......hmmm.....80-100 barrels would be nice size for a micro distillery I'd suppose.

Well....Punkin, why don't you list the precise characteristics you are looking for in what you make?

[muckanic]

Ah....the blending and testing that would have to be done would be excruciatingly wonderful work......

Not if you were making single-malt, it wouldn't be. Looking at my bottle collection last night, I noticed I've had a 10 yr old Bundaberg black at some stage. From memory, it wasn't near as smooth as it should have been for the age. Maybe that's just rum. The label is also a bit of a hoot, as they essentially go on about 1988 having been a particularly good sugar vintage. Maybe there could be something in that, although I sniff a bit of hype in the suggestion that the ingredients could shine through in the same way as with wine.

The brutal reality is that the vast majority of what folks make around here would not even meet the minimum bourbon spec. Therefore, it's a little macho to go head-to-head with the big guys unless we're talking about the get-it-out-the-door-fast operators. Obviously, we can learn from the big guys (which is sort of what this comparison thread is also about I suppose), but ultimately us amateurs occupy our own space. I'm reminded of earlier days when duplicating lambics was regarded as the pinnacle of home brewing. The wise heads eventually conceded that they were in a separate "faux-lambic" category, as they didn't live in Brussels and weren't engaging in spontaneous fermentation. This is not to say that they couldn't give some of the commercial rip-off artists a run for their money, and maybe that principle applies to the spirits world as well. Duplicating a particular style with much more limited resources is a noble pursuit in itself.

[Dan Call]

Well that really does boil it down, excellent points. It boils it down to the fundamentals of what we do as apart of the larger 'how it is done' category.

1. We can make distilled spirits at home. The "Home Distillation Handbook" boils it down to the basic sugar vodka process. I wondered why everyone here talked about sugar washes, and always used vapor locks in carboys, beer kegs and dairy cans as boilers, which initially seemed very weird. Then I read that book and understand it's influence. It gets you there in the simplest most basic terms. Even that is not easy, it's complex, getting something that you can actually drink takes concentration and practice.

2. I came to this thing through Ian Smiley's "Making Pure Corn Whiskey" (that and coming from a middle TN family that I know were distillers back in the 1800's) so I was sort've a snob right out of the gate as this book is geared to all grain mashes, uses no vapor lock, and starts with a water heater and copper tubes. It was very difficult to get through the whole process and the additional issues of much lower conversions and hence, yields, with all grain meant an initially less satisfying experience, but perhaps a better understanding of all grain mashes. And even though I've done sugar washes, my goal is the highest quality all grain corn whiskey, the old style. I'm not interested in just making something that I drink. I drink very very little, like one to three times a month consisting of a few glasses of wine, a few beers, or a few sips of whiskey, and I want the highest possible quality, and the satisfaction of knowing that I can do it. As well...I'd like to start a legal distillery.

3. NOW I realize that these two worlds are both present here but the all grain guys seem to be in the minority. On the other hand, the guys from the "Handbook..." side seem much more experimental with things and the sugar wash process has been refined a great deal to a few very reliable recipes that I have had success with. I still want to try the "yeast bomb" with Pugi Rum and see if I can get those Rum oils to show up in the flavor, that was a fascinating thing to discover, one of the most interesting things, about blending the different parts. I had no clue about that until I came here.

Now.....as to the leap from "Hey....I got a drinkable result" to...."I've got my own version of Booker's and it's better....that's quite a leap, it seems we've got everything in between. There are people here that love their sugar wash and make their own little cocktails and are happy as they can be. And....the variety we do here from experimentation is amazing. Then there are really are some are, I am convinced, that, given the equipment and opportunity could "go pro" and do extremely well. In fact, I KNOW this is happening at this very moment, and most of us know who those people are. I believe coming from this environment and starting a distillery is a huge leg up in practical know how in technique whereas a 'businessman' that wants to start a distillery because it's novel or cool wouldn't know his a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to all grain washes vs. sugar vodka. And what's more, the amount of knowledge gained from doing it over and over again, and getting help and notes from others and what's happening makes all the difference in the world. This is one of the very few places on the entire internet where such a thing happens. I believe coming here and reading, and practicing, and applying oneself can definitely make the difference between a successful distiller with excellent results and consistent products and someone who can't figure out why the distillate is always cloudy and not drinkable. I don't think that can be disputed.

So....I think there is alot of everything, but, there's more than enough talent here to compare most favorably to the results we get, especially with folks who are shooting for that, but not all of us are.

We need somebody to talk about the taste of some whiskey....please share.

[punkin]

Well....Punkin, why don't you list the precise characteristics you are looking for in what you make?

You expect too much of me. i'm neither clever nor skilled enough to even describe what you are asking. The process and product are driving me, not me them.

However...there is a definite smokey flavor in Booker's that you can trace back to plain old Jim Beam white label, it's the same stuff, just the best aged.

That's not how i understand bourbons, scotch whiskeys or any other whiskeys being constructed. i know it say's that on the label, but i think you would be very naive to think that all the product that goes into Jim Beam comes from a their distillery or there 'JimBeam production run' or any other identifiable source. As i understand it from Pint's and others posts that have toured all these places and worked and studied behind the scenes and the label hype, the spirits that find their way to the bottles are controlled by blenders, not distillers. They don't nessercarily come from the same distillery, the same grains, the same recipe etc, just driven by what the blender needs to achieve the product from whats available on the bulk market.

In the end i don't believe you can compare a medium priced, mass produced spirit with a small scale artisan distillery producing their own aged product. Whether that be a small commercial facillaty that is interested in high quality spirits or a dedicated home producer/artisan.

I have very little more to add to the subject, and believe the same as yourself, that you should get back to your thread.

[Dan Call]

Punkin, despite your mildly pissy attitude, I see what you're saying, and I'll have to say, you're giving me way too much credit. I NEVER said a single word about what percentage distillate that goes into barrels is an actual production run, or about blending, or ANY of that....didn't presume to know any of this that you're giving me credit for somehow 'naively' knowing, so thanks but no thanks. Was simply making a few remarks about barrel complexity and I have spent alot of time in Kentucky distilleries and with whiskey experts, but I would happily defer to Pinto's knowledge in this, in fact, I'd enjoy his view on these things....

And yes....someone talk about the taste of whisk(e)y.

[I-GOR]

T HolyMac inspired me to go buy a bottle of Old Overholt. Can't find Sezerac. Nursing a glass right now...

Nose: some tuttie fruity, but mostly peppermint oil(?), to me anyway. I'z smells some heads in dere, just a hint', vanillins from the oak waftin up'
Taste : first, pretty smooth, then, a lttle pepper, some spice, a little banana, oak starts to open up w/ vanilla & oak/caramel,
late : fades a little too soon for me, wait, is that burnt caramel? late-late I get a that dry-grain taste of malt barley, then dill.

If I made a drop like that, I would be pretty smug, but as some folks were discussin on this thread, barrell agin must account for something.

I used to drink Jim Beam rye and as I recall JB seems more tutti fruity to me, but I haven't tasted it for years.

Sniffin' again: yep, there's head in there. This hobby has opened up my eyes, ear, nose, throat......

[punkin]

Was looking for something different to drink last night, just couldn't settle on anything. Tried some of Blaniks brandy, some of my peaches, some this and some that until i came across the first ever small bootlle of allgrain i ever did. it was a 25l ferment and the conversion was shit. I strained it through a special pillowcase made out of hessian i'd bought and it took hours of squeezing and it was a fukin nightmare.
When i finally stilled it i go about 250ml all up from foreshots to tails. I made no cuts but put three or four little oak sticks in and every now and then i'd pull it out for one shot.

27/10/07 is the date on it and it is gooooood. (but all but gone)

Just goes to show that age takes care of cuts.

The nose is one of those looong oak bookers type barrell scents, a bloke could just get al he wants from whiskey breathing it. The taste is a bit over oaked, i wish i'd taken all but one stick off 3 months ago, but the full, rounded profile is there. The whiskey is VERY full flavoured, caramel, vannilla, and the grain background shines through even though it's hammered by oak.

Definately spoiled, but showing me that i can do it with a bit more attention, and it's not a distilling issue, like i said, it's an aging/blending issue.


Good distilling will make it better then what i can buy, i believe.

[Dnderhead]

Yes, Punkin ,congratulations welcome to the wold of top shelf . just try a barrel for about 1 year or more. if using a small one,( 5 gal or less)
have it used then it wont be over oaked. there's three things to making good stuff 1) use all grain /frut. 2) make as clean as possible 3) age,age,age
their is no substitute for patience

no wine- is fine--until- its time - same goes for us.

[rustyone]

Not sure I would call myself a critic, maybe a lame drunk, but I have always enjoyed Wild Turkey, usually "Rare Breed" is what I would buy. Always preferred it over Jim Beam, can't tell you why though. I do have a 12 yo bottle of Glen Fiddick in my cupboard as well. Which is really nice for a social drink. Don't notice the pear flavor they claim to be there, but I do notice the sweet fruitiness of it.

[Dan Call]

To me, Rare Breed is the best of all the Wild Turkeys. Even their oldest stuff still have grain character to it, the Rare Breed is not smoky, is not woody, at least to me. It has some complexity, but to me, it's hard sour candy, some nuttiness, high tongue acidity, a rich middle with a touch of licorice and the grain tastes, some mild woody richness. In my opinion it qualifies as a super premium, it's just very different. The Wild Turkey 101 is similar to this except it's much rougher, less delicate. For some reason, Heny Mckenna in the plain, cheap form, is in the same league as the rare spirit, and it's considered a "table whiskey."

[DestructoMutt]

i used to drink Pussers Rum. this thread reminded me of that, so i went to the store looking for a bottle, but they don't carry it any more.

the store bought rum i had been drinking most recently (and using on the fruitcakes) is Saratoga - an inexpensive dark rum from the Virgin Islands ($10USD/750ml). however, most recently is actually about 3 years ago. i seem to remember it having a nice rum flavor, not harsh, no bad after taste, spicy (although it didn't say spiced on the label), mild and smooth. but again...3 years ago.

this hobby has "ruined me" for store bought. i have been playing with apple brandy and bought some "Grand Solage Boulard Calvados Pays d'Auge" to see what the "good" stuff is supposed to taste like - i noticed the heads and tails, not over powering but present.

did the same with some "Maraska Sljivovica Old Plum Brandy Slivovitz" - again heads and tails.

one good spirit i have tasted - "Liquore di Noci di Sorrento" - no heads or tails. i think its made with 190, but my green walnut liqueur compares favorably to this.

[blanikdog]

I had a sip of J&B RARE scotch yesterday and I dunno if I'm getting too picky but I'll bet my left testicle that it had a high percentage of heads in it. Quite distinct in the nose but it drank OK. I'll drink my own and use the $40.00 a bottle to buy more supplies.

blanik

EDIT: I doubt that my left testicle is even worth $40.00.

[DrTorque]

A bunch of people have brought up rum here, so I'll throw this in - anyone else a fan of Bacardi 8 Year? It's only a few bucks more than that miserable Gold, and I think it's fantastic. I'll drink it straight up. I brought some to a friend's house where they had been passing around a big ($400) bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue the night before, and they all loved it. They couldn't believe it was Bacardi. I'll keep getting it because $25 is a heck of a lot better than $80+ for some of the premium rums I've seen.

This also leads to the aging topic, and I'll say that aging is just about everything for the commercial products, regardless of the type of spirit (besides gin and vodka, I guess). Unless I'm making margaritas by the pitcher, I'm only buying Anejo tequila (Don Julio and Patron are reasonably priced) from now on. I love sharing that stuff with friends that have never had anything better than Cuervo Gold before, and the reaction is always the same - they can't believe how good tequila can actually taste, and they can't believe how terrible the crap they had before was.

I always have a couple of bottles of single malt scotch in the cabinet - Macallan (12) and Glenmorangie (10) are my favorites so far, but that's only because I can't justify the price for the 18 years. I've had them at bars, and they're definitely better. I want to try Highland Park next.

As for bourbon, I've got a bottle of Woodford that's almost empty. So far, that's my favorite for the money. Blantons has a stronger flavor, almost like a blended scotch to me. I love Bookers, but I can't afford that very often.

There certainly seems to be a strong and very obvious correlation between all of the good spirits out there - the aging. It has me thinking that all of the other aspects to manufacturing a spirit are secondary. I can't wait to be good enough at this whole thing and confident enough to justify adding an aging process.

Any of you guys ever age a vodka? I'm wondering if it would end up tasting something like a whiskey...

[seravitae]

On the topic of people noticing "heads" in distillates.. can anyone organoleptically describe "heads"? obviously tails is like dirty/cardboard smell..hearts is your good bit, but i thought heads was pretty much neutral ethanol, so not sure how people are describing that it has heads in there, unless it's diluting the aroma..

[Hawke]

The heads are where the acetone and such come over. Think of paint thinner, rubbing alcohol or nail pollish remover.

[HookLine]

The smell of heads varies a bit depending on the ingredients in the ferment. But it basically has a sharp, slightly sweetish smell, that has distinct industrial solvent edge to it. 'Paint thinner' or 'nail polish remover' are good descriptions of the kind of smell. From memory it is the acetone and ethyl acetate that do it.

Hawke, I am pretty sure that rubbing alcohols means the propanols, which come over in the tails. Could be wrong.

[Dnderhead]

Dan you speak with a golden tongue , not a bad thing, but are you a critic??? of what? Ive got a couple of "top shelf" like a real test/comparisons
1) bourbon 2) single malt single barrel I whould like a real test not alcoholics .( thank good stuff not wast on drunks) if it can be worked out just ask for right up on hear.and the truth ,,, if yes PM.
like to know?????????????????

[Dan Call]

I take that as a compliment Dnderhead, thank you, but I'm not a critic. I like your idea and again I really wish there was some way we could all, once and for all, taste each other's stuff, it would be so cool to actually taste what we try desparately to describe in writing. I'll have to be honest, sometimes I can taste what other people say they are tasting, other times I have absolutely no clue whatsoever. There are people on here that really have highly tuned taste buds, Pintoshine is one of them. I'd like to see him chime in on this thread.

I took an interesting path to be able to have sensitive taste buds. It started with roasting coffee well over ten years ago. Most people don't know this but you can roast the freshest and perfectly roasted coffee imaginable in your own home with a hot air popcorn popper. The "West Bend Poppery II" is the best, the critical thing being that the air convection in the popper must be circular rather than bottom up. Circular with roast roughly a cup of green coffee beans at a time. Green beans can be bought in most coffee shops that sell coffee and are usually cheaper than roasted beans and they keep for over a year. I learned to discern taste subtleties in coffee through roasting. Just as the oaking process takes over the grain characteristics with extended aging, the roasting itself takes over the regional characteristics of the coffee bean, such as acidity, sweetness. I'm from the South and a few years ago dated this incredible Kentucky red-head that was absolutely a "Kentucky Woman." I was well into fine Bourbons but this women drug me around to distillery after distillery, tasting after tasting, haunting the ruins of the old Sitzel Weller, Old Taylor, and Old Crow distilleries way out in the country just a few miles from Labrot & Graham. She bought me bottles of everything under the sun, many of which were only available in Kentucky. So I learned alot from bourbon tasting in particular, so that's how I got into the subtleties of flavors. THEN, just as I had become interested in roasting my own coffee beans I began to investigate the process of distillation and, needless to say, roasting coffee is a cakewalk compared to making whiskey, which made it all the more compelling. When I first started making batches with Ian Smiley's book, I would go out and buy "Shine on Georgia Moon" to compare with what I was tasting and quickly realized that what was being made at home was better, not by much at first, but much more so later. As if often the case with a beginner with all grain mashes and learning the importance of starch conversion, those early batches can yield very very small amounts of distillate with which to compare! But what little there was tasted good!

Which brings me to some tasting notes. I must confess, when I go to the liquor store, nine times out of ten the choices are so bewildering I just buy Georgia Moon and try to learn the taste of corn better. This product used to be made by the Johnson Distillery in Georgia but is now made by Heaven Hill (Shapiro family) in Bardstown, so it's continuous collumn distilled both times. It's cool because it's sold in the 'jar' container, which I like. The product is sometimes pretty corn strong, a little sweet, like heads. Other times it's insipid and a little brackish. It tastes like it has both heads AND tails in it because the tongue is often that distinctive acetone thing. It seems like many people are noticing both heads and tails in commercial spirits in these write-ups. I rarely drink very much, last night I drank a little over a half pint, which is the most I've drank in about a year, and I had a headache when I woke up this morning and felt a little groggy today. That just makes me drink even less and I don't drink very frequently to begin with. But I tell you I'll take my chances with a white whiskey or vodka that getting something that's aged to either cover up or make worse the concoction your drinking.

[Bsnapshot]

I I like your idea and again I really wish there was some way we could all, once and for all, taste each other's stuff, it would be so cool to actually taste what we try desparately to describe in writing.

Yes this would be very cool if we had the opportunity to do something like this or just being able to get together with some of the experts on hear just to learn the craft. I myself have been reading and reading and running batches trying to learn how to do these cuts. I just can not grasp it yet. I am slowly learning but it would be cool like Dan said to try others so you have something to compare to.. Oh well not much we all can do about it. Although this forum has been a huge help in my hobby.