HETP for lava rock

[StillerBoy]

The problem with thermometers is they rarely show corectly and precise. If you do not invest în a good thermometer, it will rather confuse you than help you. I had a lot of them and no one was precise and correct. Some showed wrong even with 5 degrees more.

As to the thermometer not reading precisely and exactly as you expect them to read, have you ever consider that just maybe, that it has nothing to with the thermometer, and has every thing to do with what is happening within the column..

A temp probe used in distilling indicates many things that's on going.. the extra reading is not important.. what is important is the reading behavior..

The boiler load is never exactly the same, abv level, the low wine make up, the composition of alcohol, etc.. those difference are identified in the column during refluxing, and in turn reflected by the temp probe..

Mars

[howie]

TBH i don't give a toss about abv, why get obsessed with it when quality should be your main concern?

Put exactly the same wash through exactly the same still making exactly the same cuts, run the reflux still at a speed that pulls your spirit off at 90% .......then do the same on the next run slower so that it pulls 95%. You will soon see the difference.
The 90% has 10% impurities in it that you don't want......the 95% has 5%.......half as many.
I started out with a reflux still that did 92% at best, then moved up to a 3 inch boka that pulls azeo......I've tasted the difference.

ok, maybe that came out wrong lol
i drive a little S/S 2", and with the help of you guys, i have managed to increase the abv from 87/88 to a PB of 95.7.
but i really try and get the column into EQ before slowly pushing the fractions through the RC.
so in theory, if i didn't bother with EQ, i could obtain 95% that was smeared to buggery by erratic power/coolant control.
alternatively, if i achieved EQ and pushed out the top fractions, i could then run a little too fast and get a lower abv 91%, but without impurities.?
not having a go mate, i wish we could could all sit round a bar and throw ideas about

[Iulistoi]

If you have a good thermometer placed correctly, you can predict the ABV with more accuracy than reading on alcoholmeter, as well as coming tails. The taste is very subiective and often can mislead. Neutrals are not like flavoured. Cuts on neutrals work better by percentages and amounts, temperature and ABV but smell and taste can only help a bit. I ruined many spirits by going on smell and is not a shame. That's because you have to dilute to a certain strength to taste some nasties, your nose can become tired, and even some flavours develop over time. It's not surprising that someone from outside can feel something that you can't feel, simply because you developed tolerance to that taste or smell or became accustomed like those homeless who no longer feel their horrible smell.

But this is something about prefference. I just want to know when It floods, I didn't said flooding is the worst nightmare.

So, when will we answer the question of this topic? Does anyone know the HETP for lava rock?

[StillerBoy]

I just want to know when It floods, I didn't said flooding is the worst nightmare.

Flooding occurs in a reflux column when one of these is out of balance.. to much power used, the packing holder is restraining / holding liquid from dropping down, the packing used is overpower by the vapours, or the RC inability to knock down the vapors, and a combination any two them..

Knowing when a column is flooding is easy to recognize, distillate / liquid is coming out the open top.. as to the why that occurred can be the result of a few things..

If the loading of the column up at start is to fast, in other word not reducing / adjusting power until after the vapors have broken through the packing, flooding will occur as the vapors are overpowering the RC..

If power is reduced prior to the vapors braking through and stabilization has started and flooding occurs, then the packing holder is the issue, as the packing holder is holding the distillate in the column..

Knowing where or when flooding will occur with a unit, and each one are different as will as each run will be also, requires to start by stabilizing the column, then slowly increase power, like a quarter amp at a time, allowing time for the reaction to occur, making sure the RC is maintaining its ability to reflux, and repleting this power increase until the vapors overpower the RC..

Knowing where those limits are will be different for each unit, note taking is important for future runs, as each run will also be different in power usage and water flow..

I prefer to limit the adjustment of water to the RC as there is a point of no return beyond a certain water flow rate.

As to HETP of any kind of packing used, personally I have no interest in knowing such, as I don't run the reflux column using that info.. from experience with the units I have, and the notes, I have learned to run in the semi flooded state.. but the task of each operator of still, is to find that state for his unit..

Mars

[Hügelwilli]

So, when will we answer the question of this topic? Does anyone know the HETP for lava rock?

The HETP of lava rocks depends on the RR. Same as with any packing. What you want to know is the minimal HETP. And because lava rocks aren't used by the industry or labs, no one has
tested it up to now. And it will depend on the sizing and shape of the rocks.

[MartinCash]

I have run without a thermometer when my cheap one died and before my Testo thermometer arrived, which was a fair delay. I produced fine neutral, because I know in my setup what take-off rate results in stable ABV. If I was starting out I would have had to taste the product more often to make sure it was not pushing tails. Not the end of the world and not in any way making me feel that the thermometer was critical. I'd put it into the 'nice convenience' category.

If I wasn't familiar with my setup my run would probably be slower out of an abundance of caution.

[cob]

I run wash but the vapour pass through a thumper where liquid accumulates, so it's similar to a plate under the packed column.

I don't recall ever seeing a CCVM with a thumper. Have you

posted pictures of your still on HD somewhere? or could you?

[Iulistoi]

Tomorow I will run the column and I will take some pictures.

I'm sure if I would have a temp probe, I would run the same as I did. Maybe a bit more clear image about when bleeding the foreshot and when to stop hearts but when you have experience you don't need a lot of measurements. I would't give up CCVM for a thermometer.

[Iulistoi]

I bought 3 kg lava rock and I broke it into smaller pieces. I tried to make them smaller but they shatter in too small pieces and result a lot of dust. Tomorow I wil try with these just to make a comparison with scrubbers. I don't want to use lava rock in the long run. I ordered 2 kg, 0.4mm stainless steel wire to make SPP and I am decided to make it with just a drill and bare hands.

[Iulistoi]

I run wash but the vapour pass through a thumper where liquid accumulates, so it's similar to a plate under the packed column.

I don't recall ever seeing a CCVM with a thumper. Have you

posted pictures of your still on HD somewhere? or could you?

As I promised, I took some pictures of the setup. I run the column with those rocks in the image above. I'm not very satisfied about the result, maybe mecause they are too big. It's about the same efficiency as scrubbers. The strength stays at 94% even with high reflux ratio. The smell is pretty well, almost neutrat but in the foreshot and heads the smell was strange, something like earthy. I didn't boil the chunks, I just rinsed them with water.

[StillerBoy]

I tried to make them smaller but they shatter in too small pieces and result a lot of dust.

The lava rocks pictured are way to large, and are not shaped, and they will not work properly..

Check this link as it provide info on how to shape them and what size works best..
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=82850

Mars

[StillerBoy]

The strength stays at 94% even with high reflux ratio. The smell is pretty well, almost neutrat but in the foreshot and heads the smell was strange, something like earthy.

As to only getting a 94%, it is due to the fact the rocks are too large, and your take rate is too fast, which is due to not having a take valve to control the take rate..

So what do you call the setup you have, as never seen a reflux column set up to a thumper to reflux with.. great lost of efficiency with 1/2" pipe feeding the thumper..

Mars

[Iulistoi]

I not agree with what you say, except tha fact that pieces of rocks are too big. How did you find out that my take rate is too fast? I said nothing about power used, reflux ratio or take rate in my last message.

[StillerBoy]

How did you find out that my take rate is too fast? I said nothing about power used, reflux ratio or take rate in my last message.

From your statement made that you cann't get better than 94%.. and trying different kind of packing will improve the results.. it's a setup and operational problem..

Based on the pictures provided, you have no take off valve.. so you are controlling the take off rate by moving the RC up or down, which would make it a CCVM style, and the from the pictures you have a very limit space to do that which reduces the ability to manage RC..

If that the case, are you able to manage the take off rate, at one drop per second.. if not that where the issue of not been able to get past the 94%.. the length of column shown in the picture should provide higher than that.. the take off rate determine the purity level..

Your total set up is not efficient for a reflux setup.. a reflux column operated off a thumper is not how a properly setup reflux column need to be..

The setup for heat input of a stove top will limit you on column height which is what is happening..

Mars

[Iulistoi]

The strength stays at 94% even with high reflux ratio. The smell is pretty well, almost neutrat but in the foreshot and heads the smell was strange, something like earthy.

As to only getting a 94%, it is due to the fact the rocks are too large, and your take rate is too fast, which is due to not having a take valve to control the take rate..

So what do you call the setup you have, as never seen a reflux column set up to a thumper to reflux with.. great lost of efficiency with 1/2" pipe feeding the thumper..

Mars

So, maybe you explain logicaly and with reasoning, why is my setup energy wasting? Maybe you explain why cooling vapours in stripping run and then heating again the low wine to boiling point for rectification (as the vast majority do) is more energy economical than using a thumper?

Seems like you are just against all other ideas, all other methods, without knowing or undertanding what other say. I am interested to see other opinions about lava rock vs scrubbers, not your opinion about my setup.

[Iulistoi]

How did you find out that my take rate is too fast? I said nothing about power used, reflux ratio or take rate in my last message.

From your statement made that you cann't get better than 94%.. and trying different kind of packing will improve the results.. it's a setup and operational problem..

Based on the pictures provided, you have no take off valve.. so you are controlling the take off rate by moving the RC up or down, which would make it a CCVM style, and the from the pictures you have a very limit space to do that which reduces the ability to manage RC..

If that the case, are you able to manage the take off rate, at one drop per second.. if not that where the issue of not been able to get past the 94%.. the length of column shown in the picture should provide higher than that.. the take off rate determine the purity level..

Your total set up is not efficient for a reflux setup.. a reflux column operated off a thumper is not how a properly setup reflux column need to be..

The setup for heat input of a stove top will limit you on column height which is what is happening..

Mars

I'm amazed at your lack of knowledge, experience and especially your lack of logic and reasoning...

[StillerBoy]

I'm amazed at your lack of knowledge, experience and especially your lack of logic and reasoning..

The statement is a direct reflection of the lack and failure to understand distillation, what's involved, and the tools use in the process..

Enjoy the journey in the wilderness..

And best of luck..

Mars

[MartinCash]

The statement is a direct reflection of the lack and failure to understand distillation, what's involved, and the tools use in the process..

Enjoy the journey in the wilderness..

And best of luck..

Mars

Hey Mars,

Presumably he is here to learn, so let's try and be productive with advice. How about we all back off a step or two?

Iulistoi, your setup is wasteful because you use an unnecessary thumper. With that column length, you should be able to get at least 95% directly off the boiler. If you can control take-off rate accurately with your setup, then the problem is your packing. Firstly, lava rock is not recommended for 2'' columns. For that sort of column, I think pot scrubbers (stainless or copper) would work much better. Failing that, small glass marbles 6-8 mm in size. There are a few threads that discuss marble size for different column diameters, they would be a good place to start.

Lastly, you will have best results running low wines combined from a few strips.

[shadylane]

I am interested to see other opinions about lava rock vs scrubbers.

For a 2 inch column
I'd recommend lava rock that's slightly larger than a pea.

[Iulistoi]

MartinCash, I did a lot of stripping runs and distill low wines in the past and I realised it is much more time, energy and water wasteful than doing a single run using thumper. Thumper works as a plate, what's wrong with this? Most of the time I insulate the thumper, the pipes and the top of the boiler and is a signifficant difference in heating power, maybe a few hundred watts more than running without any insulation but this is available for every distillation setup. Insulation helps, especially if you distill outdoors in a windy environment.

shadylane, it's a pain in the ass to make those rocks so small. I read somewhere, stillerboy wrote that it shoud be about the size of rice for a 1.5" column. I wonder if he realises what means to mince that stones in such tiny pieces. I bet, most of them become dust and you need tons to be able to choose which piece is good. Then to take every piece and give it the right shape is a torture. I have a lot of patience for this hobby but why to endure such a curse? It's much more time consuming and laborous even than doing SPP with just bare hands.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

MartinCash, I did a lot of stripping runs and distill low wines in the past and I realised it is much more time, energy and water wasteful than doing a single run using thumper. Thumper works as a plate, what's wrong with this?

I won't comment on energy and water usage, becuase i don't care enough to engage in thermo efficency usage and loss (nor am I qualified). I am versed in time efficiency, and I find your statement inaccurate, or incomplete at best.

If we're following the same process for take off rate, then 3 strips and a spirit is always less time than 3 spirit runs

I strip 13 gallons in 2 hours from heat on to heat off (2.5 hours if I dive deep into 0% territory). It takes me 6 to 7 hours for a 13 gallon spirit run of low wines. Let's call it 2 and 6.

Strip (2hrs) x 3 = 6 hours, + spirit run x 1 = 6 hours, is 12 hours total for 40 gallons of wash to bottle.

Spirit run (6 hours) x 3= 18 hours for 40 gallons of wash to bottle.

There are reasons for a single foot with a thumper, primarily becuase if you like single foot its useless with out a thumper. If you just want a little whiskey, great. But it is absolutely 33% faster to strip then spirit, than it is to properly do only spirit runs with the same amount of wash through the same equipment.

[MartinCash]

Regarding low wines, I basically agree with SCD. I can find the time to do 2-3 hr strips when the ferments are ready, and I can dedicate one full day for the spirit run at the end more easily that finding several half to full days for distillation.

The thumper is not useless, and as you point out it is doing something. It's just that with that length of column, you probably don't need it. I can see that it is useful for you probably from a puerly mechanical aspect because the column and boiler with an element underneath would be taller than your available space.

As to packing, welcome to the world of small-diameter columns. The frustrations you describe are one of the main reasons lava rock is not recommended on small diameter columns. If you want the convenience of using larger pieces, you will not get the highest ABV. It is also more prone to flooding when in very small pieces. SPP is good, but seriously, scrubbies are cheap and effective, and what I'd recommend to get going, before experimenting with other packing.

[StillerBoy]

The frustrations you describe are one of the main reasons lava rock is not recommended on small diameter columns. If you want the convenience of using larger pieces, you will not get the highest ABV. It is also more prone to flooding when in very small pieces. SPP is good, but seriously, scrubbies are cheap and effective, and what I'd recommend to get going, before experimenting with other packing.

Lava rocks are no more prone to flooding than SPP.. the flooding occurs by the inexperience operator.. in the hand of an experience operator they are equal to SPP in efficency.. and are not difficult to size..

As to using them in small column, by sizing them to the right size, they can be used in 1.5" column an up.. a 1.5" x 26" column can reflux 95% at just under 1L per hr, ideal for small boiler setup..

As to flooding, small sizing of the lava rocks is not the cause of the flooding, it's an operator problem, which is cause by failure to understand vapor behavior.

As to scrubbies, there are as you stated, cheap and effective, but not as efficient..

Mars

[Twisted Brick]

It is also more prone to flooding when in very small pieces.

Lava rocks are no more prone to flooding than SPP.. the flooding occurs by the inexperience operator..

As to flooding, small sizing of the lava rocks is not the cause of the flooding, it's an operator problem, which is cause by failure to understand vapor behavior.

Mars

Mars,

What size lava rock would you recommend for a 3" x 54" column? Also, how uniform do you feel they need to be? I have some tumbled lava 'stones' that are ovoid, very pretty, but unfortunately, closer to 1", too big. They break apart quite uniformly in size with the help of a hammer, but they tend to have different shapes and might benefit from re-tumbling a bit.

MartinCash, can you recall how you might have been running your still to cause flooding in your lava rocks?

[Winnipeg204]

Anyone know how many hours/days/weeks it would take for me to size up lava rock for a 4" x 6' column?

[cob]

I am still trying to wrap my head around 94% ethanol and plastic tubing exiting the product condenser??

[Winnipeg204]

I am still trying to wrap my head around 94% ethanol and plastic tubing exiting the product condenser??

Right?? I was wondering when someone was going to say it

[shadylane]

Flooding occurs in a reflux column when one of these is out of balance.. to much power used, the packing holder is restraining / holding liquid from dropping down, the packing used is overpower by the vapours, or the RC inability to knock down the vapors, and a combination any two them..

How does "the RC inability to knock down the vapors" lead to flooding?
I always figured flooding happened when there was so much rising vapor that the reflux couldn't rain down.

[MartinCash]

MartinCash, can you recall how you might have been running your still to cause flooding in your lava rocks?

I've never flooded my column using lava rocks, only with scrubbers and it was my fault after adding an unnecessary centering ring that had too narrow of an opening. I've read threads where people talk about flooding of their column when using very small diameter lava rock.

Perhaps I didn't word my post properly, because I wasn't singling out lava rock as being more flood-prone, I was trying to say that packing composed of very small pieces, while more efficient than coarser packing, is more prone to flooding (and requires more care from the operator).

[StillerBoy]

What size lava rock would you recommend for a 3" x 54" column? Also, how uniform do you feel they need to be? I have some tumbled lava 'stones' that are ovoid, very pretty, but unfortunately, closer to 1", too big. They break apart quite uniformly in size with the help of a hammer, but they tend to have different shapes and might benefit from re-tumbling a bit.

Why 54" column length.. I use a 3" x 36" with lava rocks and I get easily 3L of 95% per hr in the body..

As to the sizing for a 3", my are 5/16 - 3/8" in size and work well.. once I get finish replacing the lava rocks for the 2" with pea size, I will be using the 3/16 - 1/4" for the 3".. a 3" column take lots of rocks and my takes almost 5L.. the 2" takes 2L for the same length.. the 1.5 x 24" of rice size takes 1L..

I get my as rounded as I can for the best packing and efficiency.. one other things when using lava rock, once the column is packed, the column need to be juggled up and down lightly, so the rocks can seat themself.. it's not uncommon with the 2" to pack down another 2" and the 3" another 3 - 4"..

Mars