Marble size for a column

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Marble size for a column

Post by Andrew_90 »

So am slowly getting to the point of looking for packing.

I use ceramic rings for my fish tank filters, these are vary variable in quality here so I am a little hesitant. I could use lava rock but am battling to find packets of the correct size.

Finally there are marbles, which I am gravitating to for a couple of reasons. They will always pack the same in the column and clean easily. I note that our marbles are a fraction over 16.3mm while you blokes seem to get yours at 12.7mm. Would the larger marbles be problematic?
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Re: Marble size for a column

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Andrew_90 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:00 am I note that our marbles are a fraction over 16.3mm while you blokes seem to get yours at 12.7mm. Would the larger marbles be problematic?
Without knowledge of the column size they will be used in, and summing that it's a 2", the 16mm one will be to large and the 12mm one are on the large size from an efficiency point..

The 8 - 10mm size are a better choice.. and the 7 - 8mm are the size best suited for maximum reflux efficiency.

Mars
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Re: Marble size for a column

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Apologies, indeed a 2" column.

Let me dig for inert substances of 7 - 8mm size. There is a fish tank substrate, small white stones which, although irregular in size may well average out at 7 to 8 mm.

Thanks
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Re: Marble size for a column

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Looks like I can get either 6mm or 8mm glass beads (DIY Jewelry Shop) with a small hole in the centre. Not going to be cheap but will never have to buy again. So what is it to be 6 or 8mm?
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by Deplorable »

Andrew, I think that most of the folks using lava rock, are buying bags of rock originally intended for use in gas grills and fire pits, and breaking them into the appropriate size with a hammer and end cutting pliers. There is a good amount of labor involved in sizing lava rock for a 2" column. However, once you have enough made to properly fill your column, they should last you a very long time.
It's on my list of things to get around to doing, but Im pretty happy with the performance of my structured copper mesh rolls for now. Im sure I could squeeze another 1.5% abv out of my column and hit azeo at a bit faster takeoff speed if I switched, but since my main interest is bourbon and whiskey, lava rock keeps getting pushed farther down the list of things to tinker with.

Make sure your glass beads intended for jewlery are not leaded glass.
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by still_stirrin »

Andrew_90 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:56 am Looks like I can get either 6mm or 8mm glass beads (DIY Jewelry Shop) with a small hole in the centre. Not going to be cheap but will never have to buy again. So what is it to be 6 or 8mm?
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by Andrew_90 »

Ok so I did not realise that one simply bought the Lava Rock big and broke it down. Then is easy, lots of lava rock around, but I hear you, messy finicky job.

I am to assume the same size rocks are required 7/8mm?

Aquarists use Lava Rock and Raschig Rings as a filter medium in order to increase surface area so that more beneficial bacteria can grow. I suppose we are looking for more surface area to increase the reflux efficiency?
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Re: Marble size for a column

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The pictures attached tell pretty well the idea / method I use to size lava rock..

First, I select the one I consider are the porous ones, then any rock bigger than an inch in size, I use a hammer to break the rock up some.. just to break them up to 3/4 - 1" in size, don't want to go smaller yet... when breaking up the rocks with a hammer, go lightly hitting them, other wise they break up in small pieces.. then shape them using end cutting pliers, taking the sharp corners off then tumble them in a gallon can or sometihing like that along with water..

The right pliers for this task are call "end cutting pliers", and the pliers type is shown in picture 14391... I position the one handle of the pliers against the table / bench top, and work the pliers just using one handle and the corner of the pliers.. the rocks can then be cut up into smaller size with pliers as it is not to difficult a task, just takes time.. cut the larger rocks in half, then half again, until the size in the range of 3/8", then sizing to 3/16 - 1/4" size.. rounding off the sharp points as much as possible..

Once the rocks are sized, I then use a 1 gal metal can with lid, my is 1K coffee can, and tumble the rocks, about 2 cups at a time, by shaking the can back and fore with water, draining, and repeating it a few times.. this breaks off all the sharp edges of the rocks, smoothing them some, and allow the rocks to pack better..

Picture 14391 also shows the different between the good and not so good.. Picture 14421 shows the rocks broken up.. these were the same ones that were in picture 14391 on the left side.. Picture 14441 shows the pliers position for cutting the rocks and some rocks cut up

For a 2 x 36" column length, 2 liters of 3/16 - 1/4" size are required..

Mars
Picture 14391
Picture 14391
Picture 14421
Picture 14421
Picture 14441
Picture 14441
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by Andrew_90 »

Many thanks for that StillerBoy. Will check out the Lava Rock thing tomorrow.

General question. Could one make your own Raschig Rings by taking 1/4" copper tube and guillotining it 1/4" long. Tumble it to remove sharp edges. Although time consuming would this be a worthy pursuit?
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by Andrew_90 »

Next question. Do we want graduated bead sizes as we go up.

I have two section of 500mm. Do I pack the bottom one with 6mm and the top one with 8mm?
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Re: Marble size for a column

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Andrew_90 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:21 pm General question. Could one make your own Raschig Rings by taking 1/4" copper tube and guillotining it 1/4" long. Tumble it to remove sharp edges. Although time consuming would this be a worthy pursuit?
Personally, I wouldn't pursuit it.. reason they provide to much open space..
Andrew_90 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:33 pm Do we want graduated bead sizes as we go up.
I have two section of 500mm. Do I pack the bottom one with 6mm and the top one with 8mm?
Again personally I wouldn't mix the sizes.. one size it best, and for all around use, 6mm but maybe hard to find, whereas 8mm are easier to find..

Mars
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by shadylane »

I'm thinking
Since a 2" column doesn't need very much packing.
Might as well buy the smallest raschig rings you can find.
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Re: Marble size for a column

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In
Re: HETP for lava rock
I suggested trying tumbling lava rock.

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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by Andrew_90 »

Final question.

I am able to get 6mm Raschig Rings and 6mm Round Glass Beads. The Glass Beads are more expensive and will take longer. Price is not the driver, best results are the driver. Each 6mm Raschig Ring has a surface area of 212mm2 while the 6mm Bead is 113mm2. The Rings will pack less well so there will be less Rings than Beads. I am unsure which will packing solution will present the greatest surface area.

Which would be the preferred medium according to conventional wisdom?

The way I see it, the glass beads will pack the column tighter, be easier to clean. The rings may well present more surface area.

Help me decide please.
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Re: Marble size for a column

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Andrew_90 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:46 pm The way I see it, the glass beads will pack the column tighter, be easier to clean. The rings may well present more surface area.
This hobby is about learning to make and experiencing the choice.. constantly want others to choose for you is not the way to learn..

As you stated, cost is not an issue, so choose one and experiment with it.. then get the other and do the same.. this is what the hobby is all about, experiencing the choice made.

Some people like SPP, others like lava rocks, others like marbles, others like rings, others like ss scrubbies, and the list go on.. but that just the tip of packing question.. next it's sizing which is not well understood by many.. then comes how to hold the packing, then how to work the packing.. and so..

Rachig rings are not the best for 2" column, as they are better suited for 3" and up..

Again remember that the smaller the packing is, the better it will work up to a point.. so what size would be the limit in being small.. let put it at say the size of a rice or a pea for a 2" column.. like I stated in sizing lava rocks..

Mars
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Re: Marble size for a column

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OK,

going to get the marbles. If they don't do it will move on from there 8) .
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Re: Marble size for a column

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Can't make my mind up :crazy: .

Did some more alternate reading deep into the night, different sites and research papers for alternate views. Two things stuck out to me, the area of Raschig Rings vs. the Round Bead vs. the density of the pack. And then there was the randomness of the column packing, read one or two scholarly article in which experiments show that a random fill is more efficient than a more structured fill. On a quick calculation I did, I believe that despite there being less rings than marbles for the same given column, the rings presented more active surface area.

The results will tell when I eventually get to boot up the still.

Ordered 2.5kg's 6mm Raschig Rings from Moonshine Distiller. The damn shipping costs 2.5X the value of the rings. Be that as it may they have my money, no way back now.

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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by Andrew_90 »

When packing, do we stop just short of the sight glass, or do we put some into the sight glass as well?
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by Deplorable »

You want to see the top of the packing when you look into the sight glass. I pack my column so the top of my mesh is at the gasket between the column section and the sight glass section.
If I used rings, marbles, or rock, I'd fill to the just below the bottom edge of the glass.
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Re: Marble size for a column

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Thanks
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Re: Marble size for a column

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Andrew_90 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:42 am Did some more alternate reading deep into the night, different sites and research papers for alternate views. Two things stuck out to me, the area of Raschig Rings vs. the Round Bead vs. the density of the pack. And then there was the randomness of the column packing, read one or two scholarly article in which experiments show that a random fill is more efficient than a more structured fill. On a quick calculation I did, I believe that despite there being less rings than marbles for the same given column, the rings presented more active surface area.
You are wasting to much time and money on this subject of packing.. why not take the advise provided here..

It would of had some meaning if you had experience, but unfortunately you have none, and confusion has set in..

Here's what was missed in your reading.. the packing material listed in the reading, did you take the time to compare the application of the packing.. what was the column size referred to..

Most of those articles relate to commercial equipment and do not apply at the hobby level.. the advised provided here is best available, why not motor forward to develop experience..

Mars
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Re: Marble size for a column

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StillerBoy wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:30 amYou are wasting to much time and money on this subject of packing.. why not take the advise provided here.
I have read on this forum, how George is apparently not valid source of distilling information, and people should cross check his advice. Yet you would have me take only the advice of this forum? While the forum is wonderful it is nary a sin to seek alternate opinions.

For the record I did take the advice of this forum. 6mm packing was recommended for a 2" column, be it round glass beads or Raschig rings or the tedious route of making your own Lava Rock to size. I chose Raschig Rings. No ignoring of advice here?
It would of had some meaning if you had experience, but unfortunately you have none, and confusion has set in..
You confuse experience and confusion. Indecision is somewhat different to confusion. I was vexed between the choice of two RECOMMENDED packing materials in this self same thread. You comment is condescending and implies that those without 30 years experience are unable to make a valid decision based on the advice of those with 30 years experience. Play the ball not the man.
Here's what was missed in your reading.. the packing material listed in the reading, did you take the time to compare the application of the packing.. what was the column size referred to..
You make assumptions as to my reading matter, never a good idea. All manners of packing were tested in circa 1m columns. May I not do independent research?
Most of those articles relate to commercial equipment and do not apply at the hobby level.. the advised provided here is best available, why not motor forward to develop experience.
The articles did not as a matter of fact. Thought that was what I was doing. Researching multiple sources, making decisions within the advice and slowly moving forward.

Your advice has been most welcome Mars, and I respect the time you take to nurture people like me. However it would be unfair to deny anyone to alternate advice as this would to contrary to the spirit of any sound learning and research principles.
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by zed255 »

Andrew_90, I say give any packing you can get a try. I was using copper mesh religiously and began to run into minor challenges when I tried regular glass marbles. I was surprised at how well they worked. I have since tried Siporax and really like it too, it is like a porous sintered glass rasching ring. No harm in finding out what works for you regardless of opinions here or anywhere else.

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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by rubberduck71 »

I should be getting my reflux column next week. Will be experimenting with copper mesh vs marbles in my 2"x24" sanitary spool extension.

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Re: Marble size for a column

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Andrew_90 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:45 am Your advice has been most welcome Mars, and I respect the time you take to nurture people like me. However it would be unfair to deny anyone to alternate advice as this would to contrary to the spirit of any sound learning and research principles.
The lack of experience and understand of distillation at this point of your journey, makes such that it's almost impossible to decipher what best applies.. experience (doing) clear some that up..

Remembering that reading is just reading.. knowledge and experience comes from doing..

Enjoy the journey

Mars
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by shadylane »

StillerBoy wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:29 pm
The lack of experience and understand of distillation at this point of your journey, makes such that it's almost impossible to decipher what best applies..

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Re: Marble size for a column

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Lets get back on topic .Those that wanna help .do. those that don't pass and go read something else .
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by shadylane »

Andrew_90 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:46 pm Final question.

I am able to get 6mm Raschig Rings and 6mm Round Glass Beads. The Glass Beads are more expensive and will take longer. Price is not the driver, best results are the driver. Each 6mm Raschig Ring has a surface area of 212mm2 while the 6mm Bead is 113mm2. The Rings will pack less well so there will be less Rings than Beads. I am unsure which will packing solution will present the greatest surface area.

Which would be the preferred medium according to conventional wisdom?

The way I see it, the glass beads will pack the column tighter, be easier to clean. The rings may well present more surface area.

Help me decide please.
Just a thought
Google Random column packing
You will notice none of the shapes are round like a Glass Bead. :wink:
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by Andrew_90 »

Yip, that why I decided to go with the 6mm Raschig Rings.

I use Rashig Rings in biological aquaria filters, these are really good as they present large areas for the bacteria to populate. There is no solid round shaped media, to the best of my knowledge available. Round plastic balls are used but these have multitudes of perforations.

I figured that the more agitation the condensed distillate is subject to when falling back down the column the better. The angularity of the Raschig Rings I believe will break the surface tension of the condensed distillate allowing for free molecules to separate easier leading to better seperation of components. On round beads I felt there would be a more even laminar type flow over each bead which would have a lesser effect on the distillate.

Anyways that was my reasoning. I'm sure some distiller with 20 years experience will be along shortly to tell me what BS I am talking :mrgreen: .

After a little confusion initially I am real comfortable with my choice in the Raschig Rings. Time will tell and I am eager to see how they perform. I have just been notified that they are on the way so had better get a couple of washes on the ferment.

On a different, but not unassociated note. I assume the best to to buy the Tri Clover gaskets with the SS mesh to avoid the media falling into the still. How does one pour in the media without this sudden mass hitting the screen and secondly, how does one vibrate the column to ensure that the rings pack down even better.
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Re: Marble size for a column

Post by shadylane »

Andrew_90 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:48 pm

I assume the best to to buy the Tri Clover gaskets with the SS mesh to avoid the media falling into the still. How does one pour in the media without this sudden mass hitting the screen and secondly, how does one vibrate the column to ensure that the rings pack down even better.
I wouldn't worry about getting the rings to pack down. Mostly because they aren't going to.
If you use Tri Clover gaskets with the SS mesh. Make sure it's coarse so reflux can easily flow downwards through it.
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