My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

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Birrofilo
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My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by Birrofilo »

I want to relate what I am observing tonight for the first time in my brief experience because I think it might be of interest to the less experienced stillers.

I don't know where to really post this thread, moderators please move it where you deem appropriate.

** Background **

In the recent past I fermented and stripped four still charges, and for each time I got around 5 litres at around 38% alcol ABV.

Today I wanted to dilute and re-strip the stripped material (I would like not discuss why now). I put the 20 litres at circa 38% ABV and I diluted it with tap water to circa 40 litres. I therefore have around 40 litres at 19% ABV in my kettle, which is around 8 litres of anhydrous alcohol.

** What I am seeing today **

After reaching production I eliminated some 200 ml and then put the big vessel under the condenser. I am only stripping, or so I told myself, so I just collect everything from now on.

As you might have inferred, I am working to obtain a very-neutral neutral, and so I wanted to avoid smearing also in this second-stripping run. Instead of stripping it at full power as I did in the four previous single batches, I wanted to strip at a slower speed.

I am now producing very slowly and steadily. My kettle is firmly "stuck" at 86,5 °C, and my elbow temperature is 73,4 °C very firmly.

Now I know the mantra "you don't make cuts by temperature". Yet, I tasted the product. Quite strong and unpleasant. Even the grappa method of just spreading it on the back of the hand (37°C) and smelling the hand gives an unpleasant smell. I took away the large vase and put again the small graduated vessel which I used at the beginning of the run.

I then took a cylinder and floated a alcoholmeter in it: I am collecting at 89% ABV. :?:

The question arises: how can it be that, starting from a 19% charge with a pot still, I am collecting 89%? I suspect the answer is: there must be a lot of reflux. Or is it normal?

My still is so composed:
- Electric stove which is running at 2 of 4 levels of power (I might measure the Wattage if important);
- Kettle which has a volume, to the brim, of 42 litres or so;
- a 2" sight glass;
- two 50cm elements, 2", making an elevation of 1 meter, without any packing, isolated with cork;
- An elbow where I measure the vapour temperature (non-isolated);
- A final condenser.

As one can see, the pot still is a pot still in the obvious sense that it has no packing and no intentional reflux, but it is probably a "column" in the sense that I do presume, for what I understand, that some reflux is happening here.

If that is the case, this is because of the sheer length of the vapour path. I do nothing to cool it.

Also, I am still watching the process, tasting, etc. but I suspect I will have to re-insert the big vessel for the collection only when this high-ABV high-stink has passed.
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by Expat »

Did you temperature correct your hydrometer readings? Else I suspect you're getting a skewed results.

Also, you shouldn't judge your heads/fores cut by volume only smell or feeling.

Most electric stoves cycle on and off, which wouldn't be great running a still. Does yours operate that way?
Last edited by Expat on Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by Birrofilo »

Here is a picture:
Alambicco_collo_lungo.JPG
Not the most usual configuration for a pot still, but a pot still nonetheless.

(Sorry, it shows correctly vertical on my PC)
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by Birrofilo »

@Expat

The product comes out from the final condenser (of the "Gatling gun" kind) quite cold, at ambient temperature I would say. Just measured: 19,7 °C says my thermometer. The alcoholmeter is calibrated at 20 °C.

The stove is of the kind which doesn't do on-off cycles. It should remain stable, what is not perfectly stable is the tension I receive from the main, especially in peak hours. Now it's 23:27 and it should be stable. Did not install the W and V meter at the moment.

I am not making "cuts" in the proper sense at the moment, this is a stripping run. Yet, considering that the final product is a neutral, I presume it is good to cut away some initial parts to make the final run easier and cleaner.

But that is not the point. The point is that, with a 19% charge, I am obtaining a stable 89% product with a pot still. And also that the elbow temperature is quite well established in the 72,9 - 73,4 °C range.

It is my first time I do a pot still run with "so much" alcohol in the pot. This initial phase at less than 79 °C or so lasted for a very short time in each previous run. Now it seems to be stable.

I will go on watching and smelling until I am too sleepy (I will turn everything off and begin again tomorrow).
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by Expat »

Birrofilo wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:28 pm The product comes out from the final condenser (of the "Gatling gun" kind) quite cold, at ambient temperature I would say. Just measured: 19,7 °C says my thermometer. The alcoholmeter is calibrated at 20 °C.
Most are calibrated to 60f or about 15c, but if you've confirmed then okay.

Birrofilo wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:28 pm The stove is of the kind which doesn't do on-off cycles. It should remain stable, what is not perfectly stable is the tension I receive from the main, especially in peak hours. Now it's 23:27 and it should be stable. Did not install the W and V meter at the moment.
Such is well then, from the new pic it almost looks like a lab heat source.
Birrofilo wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:28 pm I am not making "cuts" in the proper sense at the moment, this is a stripping run. Yet, considering that the final product is a neutral, I presume it is good to cut away some initial parts to make the final run easier and cleaner.
If you're going to try neutral in your pot still, then yeah, that's fine as an approach. If you're stripping for a reflux still, only make the minimum foreshot cut, keeping everything else.

Yeah, pot stills can output high ABV, but it won't be sustained or clean like neutral from a reflux still can be. Without an RC, the amount of reflux will be minimal.

Good luck with the run!
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by Birrofilo »

I am going to make a spirit run with packed column and dephlegmator. This was just an intermediate stripping run.

I collected more than 1,5 litres at 87-89% ABV with elbow temperature at around 74%.
This "doesn't stick" much with theory.

Even though I don't intend to make cuts, not now nor in general, with temperature, I do expect elbow temperature to go to values around 78-80°C when the "heart" arrives. I am surprised the elbow temperature is so low and the product ABV so high.

I also tried to burn the product, both to see how good a fuel is for my backpacking spirit stove (very good! No stinks at all! Farewell stinky denaturated alcohol!) and to see where I am in the collection. The body of the flame is clear yellow, with blue fringes and blue base. That should denunciate acetaldehyde or other foreshots. Lots of them, it seems, although mixed with the ethanol and the water. On total alcohols of around 8 litres, collecting 1,5 litres of "foreshots" at 87% alcohol seems too much.

The hydrometer cannot lie and I do have a value which I cannot manage to reproduce in the "Pot still purity calculator"
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/htm/calc ... t_calc.htm

No way I can insert values in the calculator to have my condenser spit that high alcohol percentage and that low vapour temperature.
This calculator hasn't got any warning of malfunctioning.

It's 3:10 in the morning and I am beginning to be sleepy (and possibly not very bright), so I will soon turn everything off and begin again tomorrow. I certainly did not throw away those "foreshots". If I see that it is all like this, I am going to put everything in the kettle for the spirit run (my goal was to dilute the original fermentation water with tap water, so it's OK if I get ALL the product and distill it again).
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by Birrofilo »

Had the simple idea of putting my beer thermometer, which has a very thin probe, inside the thermowell of the elbow.
Temperature is actually 78 °C on the elbow, full "heads" territory. It's more normal now.

I have to drill a better hole in the thermowell, the thermometer does not touch well the bottom of it.
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by NZChris »

At around 78°C, you should be collecting close to Azeo.
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Has the thermometer been checked for accuracy and even if it is accurate is it reading accurately in that position on the still and in that thermowell.
No amount of looking at temps will make the booze taste better.
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by Birrofilo »

I have two identical thermometers. I never marked one to distinguish it from the other. In a previous test, they signed the same temperature. I thought they were equivalent.

It may be that one thermometer is uncalibrated and is shows a lower temperature than real, or that the thermowell doesn't allow a good contact to the probe.

This is a Still Dragon still but the hole in the thermowell was not large enough for the Still Dragon thermometer (!). I drilled the steel but it's a lot of pain and even though I am using a drill bit for metal I spent a lot of work for little progress. Tough steel indeed. I was content with the probe staying inside the hole without falling. I should probably improve the hole in the thermowell or use some thermal paste to improve heat conduction.

It's nice for a beginner to see the temperature progressing during the run and have an idea of the stage.

I should be at the beginning of heart but not yet inside it as the flame was very yellow and I presume (but never tried) that a proper heart should burn bluish-transparentish-hard-to-see-the-flame (like a backpacking spirit stove).

I see that I am not very good at judging by smell and taste. But I do remember the stink initially being much worse and "offensive". Later the stink wasn't there but the taste in the mouth was still "pricking". I suppose that's the high ABV.
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by LWTCS »

Birrofilo wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:19 am
This is a Still Dragon still but the hole in the thermowell was not large enough for the Still Dragon thermometer (!). I drilled the steel but it's a lot of pain and even though I am using a drill bit for metal I spent a lot of work for little progress. Tough steel indeed. I was content with the probe staying inside the hole without falling. I should probably improve the hole in the thermowell or use some thermal paste to improve heat conduction.
I do apologize for that inconvenience. The hole in the thermowell is a 4mm, and the probe is also 4 mm.
The original copper thermowell used to be so much easier to drill.
Though a good bit, slow rpm, and a heat sink (water or cutting oil. I prefer water when cutting SS) should make short work of expanding the 4mm hole.
You should definitely fill the well with thermo paste for the most optimal heat transfer.
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by greggn »

I'm going to guess that thermal cycling on your hotplate is causing the vapor to continuously rise and collapse within the column and during each collapse a greater percentage of higher alcohols persist while water and lower alcohols return to the boiler. On a typical pot still, with a short riser, this would simply produce more smearing ... your tall "riser" is producing a pseudo-reflux.
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Re: My pot still behaves like a packed column, almost

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Birrofilo wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:19 am I should be at the beginning of heart but not yet inside it as the flame was very yellow and I presume (but never tried) that a proper heart should burn bluish-transparentish-hard-to-see-the-flame
Looking at the colour of a flame to tell if you are in fores or hearts is a pointless exercise. Between that and looking at the thermometer you will become more and more confused.
Stick to smell and taste......if you don't keep trying you wont get better at it.
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