Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

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shadylane
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Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by shadylane »

Here's something I just stubbled upon.
Haven't had time to digest any of it.
But thought I'd share it with Ya'll before it slips my mind.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... .tb00958.x
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by 8Ball »

I did a quick read of the paper and did a couple related searches. From what I’ve been able to take away that may relate to our purposes, Mg & Ca ratios are critical. Too much of one and not enough of another can be detrimental to a successful ferment and resultant product.
The safe route is to use a known yeast nutrient, eg, Fermax, at the recommended dosage. For my hobby level 8 gallon ferments, I use 1 tablespoon Fermax, 1 tablespoon food grade gypsum, 1 multi-vitamin, 1 b-complex, a tiny pinch of ascorbic acid, and 1/2 teaspoon of epsom salts. If my pre-pitch ph is too low,I adjust up with calcium hydroxide. If it is too high I adjust down with dunder/backset and/or citric acid.

Edited to add: You can always just add more water to balance out an acidic solution.
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by RC Al »

Havent used epsoms since just after I started
Easy enough to remedy

Thanks shady :thumbup:
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by contrahead »

shadylane wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:53 pm Haven't had time to digest any of it.
It made a little more sense this morning over a cup of coffee, than it did last night. Don't know why scientific types persist in speaking illegible English. Its not the big words; it's the string along of strange words – to the point that “the point” is often effectively obscured.

Quote shady's linked article – the last line: "However, prudence to ensure that the final product is not adversely affected as a consequence of adjusting the metal ion composition of the wort is essential".

I don't expect I'll be very prudent until I break down and purchase for my garage, a “Hewlett Packard series II gas chromatograph (with Porapaq Q packed column), and also a High Performance Liquid Chromatograph (HPLC) fitted with a Dionex Carbopack PA 104-mm guard column and a Dionex PAD electrochemical detector.

Quote 8Ball: “For my hobby level 8 gallon ferments, I use 1 tablespoon Fermax, 1 tablespoon food grade gypsum, 1 multi-vitamin, 1 b-complex, a tiny pinch of ascorbic acid, and 1/2 teaspoon of epsom salts".

Three teaspoons to a tablespoon; right? So your putting 6 times the volume of calcium sulfate (calcium sulfate dihydrate) into a batch as you are magnesium sulfate. May be you need to reverse those proportions? (Volume may have no bearing on the amount of free ions each of these two compounds may have, however).

(for a good High Gravity wort ?) Article says: “Magnesium and calcium are usually present in brewers' wort in a ratio varying from 2:1 to 6:1, in favor of magnesium”.
https://wyeastlab.com/high-gravity-brewing
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/4xtnZ4PwZ3/

*-------------------------------------------------
Epsom salts : “Epsom salt was named for a bitter saline spring at Epsom in Surrey, England”.

My grandmother swore by Epsom salts and that horrible crap, Milk of Magnesia. Couple times when I'd had a severely sprained ankle, she'd insist that I soak my ankle in a hot tub of water and epsom salts. Which also, I learned later, can be consumed as a laxative. I'm not convinced the Epsom salts did a damn thing for my ankle. Apparently some women do think it works though, and will soak in a bath of it for half an hour at a time.

Magnesium as an Alternative or Adjunct to Opioids
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by shadylane »

Here's something that caught my eye.
I've often wondered how much Mg is too much.

" Magnesium and calcium are usually present in brewers' wort
in ratio varying from 2:1 to 6:1, in favor of magnesium.
Yeast cells actively take up magnesium via high affinity,
specific transport system, having minimum requirement for
magnesium of 42.5 ppm with inhibition of growth
occurring above 25000 ppm "
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by 8Ball »

contrahead wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:52 am
shadylane wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:53 pm Haven't had time to digest any of it.
It made a little more sense this morning over a cup of coffee, than it did last night. Don't know why scientific types persist in speaking illegible English. Its not the big words; it's the string along of strange words – to the point that “the point” is often effectively obscured.

Quote shady's linked article – the last line: "However, prudence to ensure that the final product is not adversely affected as a consequence of adjusting the metal ion composition of the wort is essential".

I don't expect I'll be very prudent until I break down and purchase for my garage, a “Hewlett Packard series II gas chromatograph (with Porapaq Q packed column), and also a High Performance Liquid Chromatograph (HPLC) fitted with a Dionex Carbopack PA 104-mm guard column and a Dionex PAD electrochemical detector.

Quote 8Ball: “For my hobby level 8 gallon ferments, I use 1 tablespoon Fermax, 1 tablespoon food grade gypsum, 1 multi-vitamin, 1 b-complex, a tiny pinch of ascorbic acid, and 1/2 teaspoon of epsom salts".

Three teaspoons to a tablespoon; right? So your putting 6 times the volume of calcium sulfate (calcium sulfate dihydrate) into a batch as you are magnesium sulfate. May be you need to reverse those proportions? (Volume may have no bearing on the amount of free ions each of these two compounds may have, however). <—Yea, been doing that for over 50 successful all grain & rum ferments do far. Don’t think I’ll be reversing anything.

(for a good High Gravity wort ?) Article says: “Magnesium and calcium are usually present in brewers' wort in a ratio varying from 2:1 to 6:1, in favor of magnesium”.
https://wyeastlab.com/high-gravity-brewing
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/4xtnZ4PwZ3/

*-------------------------------------------------
Epsom salts : “Epsom salt was named for a bitter saline spring at Epsom in Surrey, England”.

My grandmother swore by Epsom salts and that horrible crap, Milk of Magnesia. Couple times when I'd had a severely sprained ankle, she'd insist that I soak my ankle in a hot tub of water and epsom salts. Which also, I learned later, can be consumed as a laxative. I'm not convinced the Epsom salts did a damn thing for my ankle. Apparently some women do think it works though, and will soak in a bath of it for half an hour at a time.

Magnesium as an Alternative or Adjunct to Opioids
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by RC Al »

We need to factor in that there is various amounts of each already present when doing anything other than sugarwashes, barley has half the amount of mag compared to molasses and corn a quarter of whats in barley.

When you start comparing the mag to cal ratios in play you can see that some adjustments wont hurt, molasses is 266 mag to 205 cal (mg per 100g) so it makes sense to bump in some mag, corn is 33 to 6, more of both could be good.

Will have to go do some math on the effect of ingredient to water ratios, it will hard to quantify how much access to the nutrients the yeast would have to different grind sizes on grain? Possibly a similar / bit higher number to the conversion percentage? Prob not a big issue over all if your getting good rates.

I wonder if the yeast manufacturers will give up the tollerance levels of particular strains, the article mentions it varies
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by shadylane »

I'm trying to do a readers digest condensed version :lol:


" The yeast strains employed in this study were strains of S. cerevisiae (ale) and S. carlsbergensis (lager) "

" The general trend for the lager strains, in both gravities, was the same as that found with the ale strains."
However the extent of the deleterious effect of calcium upon ethanol production was more pronounced in the lager strains.

" The highest ethanol content was found in the presence of increased magnesium,
while an elevated level of calcium resulted in decreased ethanol production. "


" Calcium is required by yeast cells at minimum concentration of 10-20 ppm
with inhibition of growth occurring in excess of 1000 ppm"


" Magnesium at minimum requirement of 42.5 ppm with inhibition of growth occurring above 25000 ppm "

" Calcium, being actively excluded from the yeast cell, acts mainly extracellularly
for example, calcium is essential for alpha amylase activity and phosphate precipitation, therefore playing
role in wort pH control. "
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by shadylane »

here's some more reading I need to do.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... .tb04151.x
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by bunny »

shadylane wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:59 pm here's some more reading I need to do.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... .tb04151.x
Sorry, I am unable to read this stuff and remain awake.
I have read half of the first paragraph more than five times.


Now it's obvious this stuff has some bearing on your Shady's Sugar Shine recipe.
Do you plan to adjust the recipe in any way?
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by shadylane »

I've got a test batch with 5 X the magnesium sulfate fermenting.
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by bunny »

shadylane wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:45 pm I've got a test batch with 5 X the magnesium sulfate fermenting.
I first read this thread on Sunday.
Monday I started my third 12gal batch of my Shady/Wineo recipe with 1/2 t epsom.
This is a lot more than usual.
It's really cooking along.
At this rate it should be finished tomorrow morning- 48 hours.
We'll see.
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by Butch27 »

bunny wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:36 pm
shadylane wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:59 pm here's some more reading I need to do.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... .tb04151.x
Sorry, I am unable to read this stuff and remain awake. .....
+1 I have been following this hoping to see some definitive real world results.
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by contrahead »

Translating PPM into usable perspective

Quoting first linked OP document (just before Figure 1):
“all six strains exhibited a decrease in the rate of fermentation in the presence of 800 ppm calcium”

Quoting Shady's readers digest condensed version :

“Calcium is required by yeast cells at minimum concentration of 10-20 ppm
with inhibition of growth occurring in excess of 1000 ppm"

" Magnesium at minimum requirement of 42.5 ppm with inhibition of growth occurring above 25000 ppm "

--------------------------------------------------->

What form of calcium are they using by the way? Did I miss it? Are they using CaSO4 (gypsum), Ca(OH)2 (lime), CaCO₃ (calcium carbonate) or something else? Do they ever say? Same question with magnesium. The title of the short article is centered around “High Gravity Worts” (for beer). If they don't spell out their specific source for these two alkaline-earth-metals, is the reader to naturally assume that they intended calcium sulfate and magnesium sulfate (like all good beer brewers apparently do)?

Googeling “epsom salt and yeast” will get you interesting beer threads where discussions cover both 'premature flocculation' caused by high CaSO4, and adding MgSO4 for sulfur taste. The amounts discussed in these comments seem ridiculously small though.
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/t/epsom-salt/4853
https://www.asianbeernetwork.com/what-b ... -part-one/

The sulfates in Epsom salt and gypsum concern me more than either the Ca or Mg; but perhaps I am misguided. There are alternative sources for soluble forms of these two alkaline-earth-metals though, without choosing the sulfate forms. I've had some bad luck before, with potassium metabisulfite (Campden tablets) killing off my yeast.
----------------------------------------------------->
To put the ppm (parts per million) into a perspective that I can understand, I favor the idea of converting things into a volume appropriate for a 5 gallon fermentation carboy or bucket. That's the volume that I work with and that equals about 19 liters.

Under the old CGS (Centimeter, Gram, Second) metric system; one gram equaled the weight of a volume (1.0 cubic centimeter) of water. [ Therefore 1.0 cc of salt or yeast will weigh less than 1 gram, but 1.0 cc of dry Portland cement will weigh more than 1 gram].

-Additionally-
1 ml = 1cc
1 gallon = 3.78 liters.
1 teaspoon = 4.92cc ; 3 teaspoons = 1 tablespoon
1 cup = 16 tablespoons; 48 teaspoons; 236ml
https://www.unitconverters.net/concentr ... -liter.htm
1 cc salt (NaCl) = 1.22 grams apx.

Therefore, for a typical 5 gallon batch, 30 ppm equates to 0.0299 grams/liter. [(0.0299grams)(3.78 L)(5 gal)] = 0.56 grams/carboy ! Visually I can perceive a cubic centimeter as being a little 3/8” x 3/8” cube. Half that tiny cube's volume then being added to 5 gallons of mash.

A higher 300 ppm concentration for the same 5 gallon batch would look like (5.65g/5gal) or 1.2 teaspoons (water) or 1.4 teaspoons (of Epsom salt crystals).

Finally, for the earlier mentioned excessive 25,000 ppm concentration, (assuming magnesium sulfate crystals again) I can visualize about 2.43 cups being added to 5 gallons.
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by Hügelwilli »

In the pdf they also have Mol-numbers for minimum and maximum.

Mg minimum is 1.7 millimol/lt ("1.7 mM") and the maximum is 1mol/lt ("1 M").
Mg has an atomic mass of 24.3g/mol.
-> minimum Mg = 0.041g/lt, maximum = 24.3g/lt
Magnesium sulfate normally contains 9.9% Mg.
-> minimum epsom salt = 0.42g/lt, maximum = 245g/lt.

If they use magnesium hydroxide the amounts are lower, because it contains 4 or 5 times more Mg per weight.
-> minimum magnesium hydroxide = 0.1g/lt, maximum = 58g/lt.

This means that most mashes contain enough Mg without adding something. Except pure sugar washes. Tap water normally doesn't contain this minimum. But for example when you make an all grain or all molasses wash, you don't need to care about Mg. But the minimum amount is not the best amount according to the pdf. With 20 millimol/lt they got a better fermentation. This amount is perhaps reached by a molasses wash but not by an all grain. But they tested ohnly this one amount. Noone knows if perhaps 15 or 30 millimol/lt would be even better.
The maximum Mg of the pdf is a really crazy amount noone would add to a mash.


Ca minimum is 0.25 millimol/lt ("0.25 mM") and the maximum is 25 millimol/lt ("25 mM").
Ca has an atomic mass of 40.1g/mol.
-> minimum Ca = 0.01g/lt, maximum = 1g/lt
calcium sulfate normally contains 23.3% Ca.
-> minimum calcium sulfate = 0.043g/lt, maximum = 4.3g/lt.

If they use calcium hydroxide the amounts are lower, because it contains more Ca per weight.
-> minimum calcium hydroxide = 0.018g/lt, maximum = 1.8g/lt.

This means even plain sugar washes with tap water contain in most cases enough Ca for the nutrition of the yeast. But Ca is not only needed for nutrition. It is used often to buffer the pH. Thinking about highly buffered Rum washes, I think either the Ca limit according to this pdf is wrong or many of the ferments here would ferment better with less amounts of Ca-buffer and perhaps using instead a combination of different bases for buffering: Ca-, Na- and Mg-buffers.
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by shadylane »

bunny wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:36 pm
Now it's obvious this stuff has some bearing on your Shady's Sugar Shine recipe.
Do you plan to adjust the recipe in any way?
After fermenting a Sugar Shine with 5 times as much magnesium sulfate.
There wasn't any difference I could see.
I'm guessing the boiled yeast supplies the minimum needed magnesium and nutrients, other than DAP.
I suspect a bigger dose of boiled yeast would supply enough organic nitrogen to make adding DAP un-needed.

On a side note.
What I call a big pinch of Epsom salt in the recipe weights out at around 3 grams.
Adding 15 grams didn't make a difference in fermentation time, or the distillate taste.
Adding 3 grams of epsom salt did make a slight difference in taste.
Just guessing, the extra magnesium might be needed to balance the calcium from the oyster grit.
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by bunny »

shadylane wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:32 pm
bunny wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:36 pm
Now it's obvious this stuff has some bearing on your Shady's Sugar Shine recipe.
Do you plan to adjust the recipe in any way?
After fermenting a Sugar Shine with 5 times as much magnesium sulfate.
There wasn't any difference I could see.
I'm guessing the boiled yeast supplies the minimum needed magnesium and nutrients, other than DAP.
I suspect a bigger dose of boiled yeast would supply enough organic nitrogen to make adding DAP un-needed.

On a side note.
What I call a big pinch of Epsom salt in the recipe weights out at around 3 grams.
Adding 15 grams didn't make a difference in fermentation time, or the distillate taste.
Adding 3 grams of epsom salt did make a slight difference in taste.
Just guessing, the extra magnesium might be needed to balance the calcium from the oyster grit.
lol!
Mine worked out similar.
No actual speed change.
Probably wishful thinking.
No noticeable taste difference either.

Could you describe the slight taste difference and tell me if it fell within usual range?
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Re: Effect of increased magnesium and calcium on yeast

Post by shadylane »

Let me rephrase that. :lol:
Adding 3 grams of Epsom salt to 20 gallons made a slight difference.
Adding 15g didn't make any additional difference.
I'm not sure how to best describe it, but both the wash and the shine "might" have tasted slightly less harsh.
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