Stretching Hearts...

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Zeppelinmad
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Stretching Hearts...

Post by Zeppelinmad »

Hi All,

I wanted to raise a couple of questions about stretching hearts in the spirit run. I will quickly go over what we do currently to set the scene.
We are after a clean neutral spirit to make into Vodka and then gin using 12 botanicals. We run:
35l wash @20% STRIP. - we do this three times ( we have 2x55 litre barrels that we ferment sugar wash in - we use Turbo yeast (yes we've tried other recipes and we are happy with the turbo - we don't stress it, we keep it cool and let it take it's time - seems to give us really good product at high percent)) and end up with about 35 litres at 55%

We then strip this again (After some dilution to make sure its no more than 40% ABV) - this yields about 26 litres at about 70%

We then do our spirit run. (Note we used to do Strip, Spirit, Spirit - but have found that two stripping runs and one spirit run gives us as good quality and yield and is a lot quicker

For the spirit run we've got a reflux system at the top of our copper column - 3 tubes all at 120 degrees with water passing through the top one first, then the middle one and then the bottom one - across a distance of about 10cm - just below the temp probe and the entrance to the condenser. We pack the column with copper wool - between the top two rolls we also have a load of tiny copper springs to add some extra reflux opportunity.

We normally end up with about 12l of hearts - which out of 18l is fairly good (I think) at 94/95% ABV (with temperature correction). This we then split into vodka (usually about half) and then take out all the packing, add the gin basket and run the other half through in pot still mode to make the gin.

Now to my questions / Comments.

We have recently added a temp probe in the boiler and whilst messing around with it, linking to electronics that we've got controlling the power supply, on the last run actually stacked the column really slowly - much slower than we would normally - and as a result we compressed the heads by about a litre. This therefore increased our yield of hearts. Our logic/ thinking on this was that because we'd stacked slowly, we thought that maybe we'd fractioned better in the column and then been able to pull off more concentrated "banana" flavour as the ethyl acetate was perhaps separated a little better in the column, with less smearing into the ethanol (which boils just slightly higher). This got us to thinking -

Is there a way to "stretch" the column of vapour before we hit the tails? I.e. try and "drop" the bottom of the column a little by dipping the heat, and then slowly drop the reflux water rate to allow the top of the column (which should be more ethanol rich if we can slightly cool the column and allow the higher boiling tails products to condense in the column) to tap off through the condenser - effectively "stretching" the end of the hearts ??

this is all a theory - and I was wondering if anyone had tried it on here or had any other suggestions around this. I'm part of a Gang of Four doing this - and I'm the one that picks the tails first EVERY time - I must be sensitive to it - other guys spot the transition to heads better than I do so I guess my palate is shifted that way) so I'm keen to delay the onset of tails as much as I can. We've been adding the feints each time so I know we can "reuse" but recently, having tried to run a feints run and getting absolutely nothing worth using from them we've come to the conclusion that there were over worked and ready to be binned. (So our next run will be a completely virgin one. We will of course stack the column really slowly as previously proven to increase our hearts by compressing the heads - just hoping we can find a strategy for doing the same at the other end of the hearts - and minimising feints in the first place)

So really just looking for any ideas about "stretching" the column once we approach the end of the hearts....

Sorry for long post - hope it all makes sense....

Cheers
Andy
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NZChris
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by NZChris »

54% of the available alcohol in the wash making it into the heart cut isn't a lot in my experience, but I don't use Turbo and 20% ABV washes. It might be the price you have to pay for using Turbo?

You might be able to squeeze more out of it if you add a Fusel Side Draw to the bottom of the column.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=70666
Zeppelinmad
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by Zeppelinmad »

oooouuu - that sounds interesting....I will check that out.

We've always been very harsh with the cuts - probably because we are using half of it for Vodka and probably because we're getting quite a lot by having the volume of wash we can do. We used a Teddy's Mash recipe once to do a comparison - and found that the yield % was no better, the taste of the clean spirit was no better but the over all volume was 50% less (only 10% ABV Wash). Also it was a lot more hassle making the wash and cleaning up after it! I've heard a lot of polarising views on the turbo yeast - and this is probably not the forum to discuss it - but we did blind taste tests and none of us good pick it - after 3 distillations and high % ABV on the spirit run we couldn't split them. However, I'm told we should have let it age - but that's a problem when there's 4 of you, each with wives and children of drinking age - we can't age anything !!!! Hence running Turbo and being careful with it - letting it ferment for 2 weeks at 20 degrees and then cold shocking with no finnings for 3 more days before adding it to the barrel has given us some good results. However, it's very interesting to hear you say that about the % rate. Because we are doing strip 1 (we stop at 20%), strip 2 (we stop at 20%), Spirit (we stop when the tails are too horrible to contemplate (which is usually when the temp at the top goes too high anyway) we are losing at least 1.5 litres in the barrel as dunder - 0.5l per run - so we're only working with 18.5 to start with (by the time we get to the end of the spirit. What volume of clean hearts (for Vodka) would you expect from 18.5l of pure? - this would be interesting for us - to see what it possible....

thanks
Andy
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by Saltbush Bill »

From what I see your methods are riddled with problems, that is why I suggested that you could save a lot of time and effort in your welcome post.
I wont even begin to answer all that I see wrong. I'm sure others will be along with other suggestions and ideas.
Zeppelinmad wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:47 pm we use Turbo yeast (yes we've tried other recipes and we are happy with the turbo -
How many and what are those recipes ?
There really is a huge difference between the quality of neutral to be got from different washes.
Zeppelinmad wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:47 pm We then strip this again (After some dilution to make sure its no more than 40% ABV) - this yields about 26 litres at about 70%
Without making any cuts on the first strip your just recycling the same strip again, some tails will stay in the water that you diluted with, that is the only thing that will be achieved IMO.
Yes water is a good filter. If you want to persist with that method I suggest adding more water.
Zeppelinmad wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:47 pm (Note we used to do Strip, Spirit, Spirit - but have found that two stripping runs and one spirit run gives us as good quality and yield and is a lot quicker
Good booze was never made quickly, or as someone else said, by lazy men.
Zeppelinmad wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:47 pm 3 tubes all at 120 degrees with water passing through the top one first, then the middle one and then the bottom one - across a distance of about 10cm
Antiquated design.... yes they are still for sale by different manufacturers....for one reason....they can build them cheap and Newbs keep buying them thinking they are a bargain......hobbyists who build never build them and haven't for ten years or more. Ive never seen one yet that could pull 94%+ at a reasonable speed.
Lastly have a good look around the forum.....there is much to learn. If you get the urge to try something other than Turbo I suggest you look at Shadys Sugar Shine recipe......follow the recipe exactly.....I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
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NZChris
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by NZChris »

Teddy's is a flavorful vodka, not a neutral. Unless you have an extremely good reflux still, you should only use that method as a base spirit for something that benefitted from having a wheat background.
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by Rrmuf »

From what I read, in general, I find you have 1 strip more than (I think) is typical and it sounds like your yield is somewhat lower than one would expect. 94/95% is pretty good ABV, but not out of this world. If it is really strip, spirit, spirit then that is chewing up alot of time! I can't comment on the setup.

I mostly use TFFV to make a base for Gin, and highly recommend it: For vodka or a neutral (others disagree). I started with Turbos, I was ok with the results, and taste of my gin.... until I switched to various recipes here (Wineo, Birdwatcher, TFFV) and I never looked back: The difference in taste was clear.

I think most here would recommend going to a non turbo yeast wash yielding around 10%, and you might only need one stripping run each. SO, strip, strip, spirit, giving you some time savings. Also, you can't really draw conclusions on the temperatures. Many here don't use them at all. I *do* use temp probes but really just to gauge changing conditions and to estimate when it looks like it's going to start producing. boiling temps are completely a function of the mix in the boiler load. Period.
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Zeppelinmad
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by Zeppelinmad »

Thank you all for your comments and ideas. Great to hear so much advice and comments so soon!
Couple of responses - Thanks for your critique Saltbush Bill - I will recommend to my mates that we should try the Shady's Sugar for our next run - currently have a 100l fermentation taking place with turbo and 32kg of sugar - would be finished next weekend so we can run it as per our current op and then put on the Shady's to see if it's marked'y better. Yield is definitely going to be lower - we get 12l of, what we consider, very good hearts - which everyone seems to think is not a good ratio - but from a 100l wash with the Shady's recipe suggested we are only starting with 10l of pure - we will lose (I believe and I could be wrong) 0.5l per distillation - so if we only do 2 (strip and spirit) the max we've got at the end is 9l. We will have some heads and tails I guess - so may end up with 7 litres of pure. almost 50% less than with the turbo - BUT I'm always open to other opinions and will try to replicate Shady's recipe (I've got chickens so have the shell grit already - and have bakers yeast / DAP and Epsons from previous recipe tests). Obviously if it's so much better then quality trumps quantity every time - so thanks for the suggestion. As an aside we've shared some of our finished Vodka and Gin with some discerning palates including someone that's been stilling for a while, and have had very positive responses - so it's not just us with rose / copper coloured spectacles on....All the botanicals are local (except the juniper) and grown on the land - the water is rain water triple filtered (last one being a charcoal 2 micron one) - which I think could be helping ....
Regarding our reflux still being of an antiquated design - it's homemade not bought. 2 inch copper column about 1.5m long. Condenser is also copper and again all homemade - even the boiler and parrot are all home made by one of the team - he's a wiz with a blow torch....
Comments about temperature - the probes are there so we can link it to some software (that one of the other members has written) that helps us control the reflux rate, the element heating rate, the condenser flow etc - to allow us to get gradients - which seem to help. IT's all linked to a laptop with auto shut offs if things spike etc - which also gives us good visuals and downloads of what's been happening throughout the runs...
Rates - we get about 1 litre per hour in the spirit run. 4 times that in the strip.
Good booze not made quickly or by lazy men - fair point - but neither applies to us - stripping takes 4 hours from start to finish - and we've got 3 of them first time round and then another one that takes a little longer. By the time we've set up and cleaned up afterwards its one per day max - Spirit run takes 20 hours - so 2 days - and then gin takes another day - and as you all say - you can't leave it alone so it's a fair amount of time in the shed (which we don't mind)....
Cuts on a stripping run - hmmm - hadn't considered this - I thought that at "full bore" pot still mode on the stripping run everything would be smeared anyway and there was little point in doing cuts - but again open to any ideas.....
Second strip just recycling the first one - I see your point - but it does improve the product - after the first one there is still a "taint" (this could be turbo yeast influences) - the second time round it definitely purifies it more - and the ABV obviously goes up - but maybe if we use a Shady's wash we would be able to spirit run the first strip - hence saving a day...
AS I say- thanks again for all your inputs - will certainly help us try different things to see how we go. - one last question though - out of 10l of pure - generated from following shady's recipe what is a good ratio of hearts to aim for?

Thanks again
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by Yummyrum »

My 2cents

I did find that switching from Turbo to any of the sugar washes that use less sugar did significantly improve the flavour …. or more correctly , reduce the amount of “off flavour”

But the downside is as you say , you have to make twice as much to end up with the same final amount of product . I think that is the biggest issue most have when they have been used ti banging out Turbos for a while .

Funnily I use 32kg of sugar in my 180liter sugar washes which is my own bastardised version of Teds and Shadys .
I end up with close to what you are getting after cuts …. around 12litres , some times a bit more , sometimes a bit less . Thats at 95.5-96% ABV .

I’m like you , I hate tails . I’ve tried to compress tails at thw end of a run by increasing reflux ratio , but I found that the take off rate was reduced to a drip speed and it took maybe an extra hour or more to squeeze out an extra 500mls that still had that nasty compressed tails tinge to it .
So I don’t bother anymore . As soon as I detect tails ( I taste on the fly with a spoon of water then hold under spout ) , I kill it .

I think you should look at getting a dedicated stripping setup . With a big condenser that can handle higher stripping rates .
I have an 80liter keg on gas with a 6’ liebig . I typically strip at 15-20 litres an hour . So I can do 180 litres in three 60 litre batches in a day . You might also look at a pre heater . Thats where you use the next wash to be stripped to help cool the one you are stripping , you dump and refill with almost boiling wash saving heatup time .




But getting back to your original question . I don't think there is a magic way to get a significantly larger hearts cut .

Sure , turbos make a lot of extra nasty shit while pushing out the last 5%abv . That will mean you need to make narrower cuts to remove it .
Getting a better still design will mean you can produce at a higher takeoff rate at a higher ABV .

So while doing these things will make a better cleaner product , you might at best end up with a litre more out of you 32 kg of sugar .

For me it has been worth it . But I’m not in it for quantity .
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by Oatmeal »

Through the magic of alchemy, our spirits live on.
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NZChris
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by NZChris »

Zeppelinmad wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:17 pm - one last question though - out of 10l of pure - generated from following shady's recipe what is a good ratio of hearts to aim for?
I never aim for a volume. I aim for the best quality heart cut I can blend out of the jars I have collected, keep good records, then tweak my methods each time I ferment and distill after referring to those records.

I also use a preheater to eliminate heat up time and energy costs. https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 87&t=66230
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by Zeppelinmad »

Thanks Again Guys,,,

Lots of good information there.

Haven't got a flute but found the info on that thread quite interesting - and YummyRum - your "bastardised" take on the sugar wash recipe sounds interesting - 180l with 32Kg of sugar and a yeast that hasn't got a bump on it's bonnet yielding 12l of good stuff sounds very interesting !!! Have you got a recipe you'd share for that or is the same as Shady's but with more sugar more water (and presumably more yeast and nutrients) ?

on a separate note - Pre-heater - wow that looks like a cool piece of kit....

Cheers
Andy
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by Saltbush Bill »

This is the Shadys recipe converted to metric for a 25L ferment. Times x 6 for 150L or 7 for 175L.
4.5 kg Sugar
1.2L boiling water + 1/4 cup bakers yeast
3xVit B crushed
pinch Epsom salts
1x tablespoon DAP
1/2 cup shell grit / crushed shells.

Those quantities have been working for me.
I think I got the conversion right , Shady might check it and say if its not right.
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by Setsumi »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:58 pm This is the Shadys recipe converted to metric for a 25L ferment. Times x 6 for 150L or 7 for 175L.
4.5 kg Sugar
1.2L boiling water + 1/4 cup bakers yeast
3xVit B crushed
pinch Epsom salts
1x tablespoon DAP
1/2 cup shell grit / crushed shells.

Those quantities have been working for me.
I think I got the conversion right , Shady might check it and say if its not right.
SB

That water looks wrong for the sugar. That sugar is close to 10lb and the water is about a 3rd of a galon.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by Saltbush Bill »

1.2 L is only to boil the bakers yeast in......go to Shady's recipe for the method.
25L =6.6 gal.
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Re: Stretching Hearts...

Post by Setsumi »

SB, my bad did not see the 25L. Pre coffee read and reply
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